Topic: When you relapse or no longer herx, WHATS happening?
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
I've brought this up before, but it seems to be coming up a lot again lately, so can we talk about this?
I am very perplexed about people who take ABX.....herx for a couple of weeks.....then start to feel better. They stay on the ABX for a year or more, cuz that is what they are told to do. They then stop the ABX and within a couple of weeks they are flaring horribly with return of all symptoms, sometimes even more.
So what is happening? Why does someone only herx for a couple of weeks? What is happening when they feel good all of a sudden and then what happens when they stop the ABX?
Is it that these insanely intellegent little ctreatures recognize that they are being threatened and do whatever is needed to prevent their destruction. They simply go into a dormant or cyst form where ABX are rendered useless. At this point are the ABX doing anything? Is this why we feel better, nothing is dieing?
Then we stop the ABX thinking we are likely Lyme free and all heck breaks loose again. Could it be that these very intelligent little creatures recognize that the danger has passed and they come back out to raise havoc once again unabaited?
I know that this is not the only outcome for those who use long term ABX, but it does happen a lot...we can't ignore that.
So even to you who are die hard ABX believers, what do you think might be happening when things turn out this way? There has to be an explanation.
[ 01. February 2007, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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I am not at all qualified to answer this, of course, but this is how I have wrapped my mind around this issue.
We think we know that the pleomorphic abilities of these buggers will allow them to change forms depending on the environment they are exposed to (you mentioned this).
This is the reason why many doctors will use a combo of different abx AT THE SAME TIME. Let's just use the example of doxy (kills the spirochete) zith (kills intracellular bugs) and Tini (busts those cysts).
In my family this is what we are eventually shooting for--using this combo for a period of time until all symptoms have subsided. I also think weaning from abx with intermittent treatment after all symptoms have subsided and there is no longer a reaction (herx) is a smart idea. They do this on www.cpnhelp.org.
Of course, we didn't even touch on coinfections.
There are so many variable to this disease and treatment it BOGGLES my mind. I do, however, think we can beat this thing even with our rudimentary knowledge, and that treatment must involve a long term committment to using multiple antibiotics together.
Posts: 554 | From Naples, Italy | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
My personnal opinion..... At the times when they start to feel better on abx is when they need to start upping the dose or change abx, if they are not herxing.
When I stop herxing is when I have found its time to up my dose so that I do start to herx again.
Maybe when they start to feel better is when the Bb goes into hiding? I don't know, I am not the most scientific person here. But just seems to be how Bb works, it likes to hide. And if your not herxing at all, then you need to change something before you go completely off.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jellybelly:
They then stop the ABX and within a couple of weeks they are flaring horribly with return of all symptoms, sometimes even more.
So what is happening?
Simple answer the forms that are not killed by abx's Are {{{ Coccoid, L-forms, Cysts }}}Are coming back to life as soon as the threat of abx chemical is gone.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Thanks so much for your thoughts!
Sojurner, I tend to agree, a combo of sorts is in order. Do you think we need to go real long term on all 3 at once or are shorter sperts a possibility using them one at a time? This might keep toxiicity levels just from the ABX down.Do you think a varity of different kinds of treatments might be thrown into the mix too?
Lisi, I agree. I think herxing is important and when you stop herxing and you are relatively early in treatment you need to change things, To me no herx just sounds like they have figured that drug out. So keep them guessing and that may mean changing the dose, maybe even going back down. Who knows?
Tree, that is really my feeling too, they are just coming back to life kind of or out of their dormant phase. So question is.....what can we do to keep them from going into one of these dormant phases? I have read that they are capable of morphing at extremely high rates which is not good.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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Aniek
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Member # 5374
posted
I for one never felt good on abx.
But, abx do have some anti-inflammatory properties. So if people have most symptoms related to inflammation, it's possible abx is hiding some of the symptoms.
Particularly if they are not cycling abx, so they have stopped herxing.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Bryan Rosner discusses this in his Lyme/Rife book. www.lymebook.com
The spirochetes go into hiding when you take abx. [at least the ones that are not killed]
The minute you go off abx, out they come!
Rife keeps them guessing and is a great thing to use after you've got the keets knocked down with abx.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jellybelly
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Member # 7142
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Tutu, I think Bryan's book was excellent in the way it described Lyme. Even if a person is not interested in rife, the points of reasoning he makes on other issues were really good and easy to understand.
These were opinions I had been forming and Bryan's book was the first time I ever saw it in print. It makes soooo much sense to me.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
pulsing worked for me. also-a year of detox added to symptoms going away
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jellybelly: Tutu, I think Bryan's book was excellent in the way it described Lyme. Even if a person is not interested in rife, the points of reasoning he makes on other issues were really good and easy to understand.
These were opinions I had been forming and Bryan's book was the first time I ever saw it in print. It makes soooo much sense to me.
I was very impressed with his book!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
up for more input
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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