I was just wondering...Have any of you with LLMDs asked this question?
It costs $485 for me to just consult with a local LLMD!!!!! Even regular ducks only charge around $120 for an office visit. ( if you are uninsured)
And then it seems likely that most insurances won't pay for the treatments the LLMD prescribes... WHY?
It's so frustrating....Ducks are telling me that the information LLMDs are using is self-serving...it sometimes seems like it. It is causing me to become very cynical about LLMDs. They don't even seem to agree with one another about treatment let alone with traditional medicine.
Is there anyone that knows the answer?
(Don't say that it is expensive because insurance doesn't cover the docs...it doesn't cost $485 to just look at a patient!!)
Posted by djf2005 (Member # 11449) on :
i believe that it has something to do with liability.
so many llmds end up getting sued and losing their liscences.
if i was a llmd, id probably charge a lot too.
maybe they are planning on eventually running into a lot of legal trouble?
any beyond that, the obvious reason is they CAN.
there are desperate people out there and we really dont have a choice, do we? Posted by zil (Member # 12048) on :
Hi Tori. I think you are paying for their time. I am seeing a LLD in August and the consultation is scheduled for an hour and a half. Most patients get 15 min scheduled and are charged $120. I guess the LLD realize by the time we get to them we have a long history that will take up a lot of their time. Good luck with your appt.
Posted by Aniek (Member # 5374) on :
It is because most LLMDs spend more time with a patient. When you go to an office visit with most doctors and pay $120, it's for 20 minutes if you are lucky.
A first consultation with an LLMD is between 1 hour and 4 hours.
Some LLMDs don't take insurance because the plans won't allow them in their networks. Others use too much alternative medicine, so it is difficult to code for insurance. Others just refuse to deal with the insurance companies. And some LLMD's do take insurance.
Posted by Tori (Member # 11647) on :
Maybe it is naive of me but they KNOW that they are not going to be covered by insurance companies...They know that many Chronic Lyme suffers are disabled or unable to work many, many hours in order to pay these outrageous fees. They know we are desperate for answers!!
SO why not be kind and offer payment plans or something? I have to have a deposit of $200 just to make an appointment with the LLMD!!! What happened to altruism???
It feels like some LLMDs are feeding off of the desperate...I hate to feel that way but COME ON!!!
***Forgive me...I am just so frustrated!***
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
tori, don't get me started on the prices they charge. maybe some are worth it, like dr. c, b, whatever.
the one so-called llmd i went to charged 75 for an office visit and then charged 250 for consultation on top of that.
i have never heard of that. his office assured me that they took insurance, and dumb me i never checked. come to find out they did not and my insurance would not pay.
he charged me about 5 grand for 6 visits.
no if that is not taking advantage of lymies, i don't know what is....
Posted by Cobweb (Member # 10053) on :
I heard a doctor say they do not take insurance so the insurance company cannot dictate how they treat. Insurance companies are in control of the docs in their plan. Insurance companies lay so many restrictions and guidelines and yada yada, a doctor is often not able to do what he/she thinks is best for the patient.
Carol
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Here's an idea: what about training PAs(physician assistants) to do the initial intake with patients, as well as some followup as well? One of my prior medical offices(not LLMD, but internist, I think)had that system.
Then the PA needs to be able to consult with the doctor, and the doctor may come in briefly, but essentially the PA handles more of the appt and the issues. Then there would be a lesser fee for seeing PAs, so more patients could access LLMDs.
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
Once again, I just feel so lucky to have the docs I do.
It's still expensive but not nearly as bad as what some people in this area pay and nowhere near as bad as Randibear's horror stories.
Mine also does phone consultations after the initial appointment, where you pay for exactly as much time as you've actually used (ie in 15 min increments rather than a flat rate of $350 an hour or whatever they charge). He also has a PA to answer emails and phone in prescriptions and stuff like that.
Obviously not everything can be handled through phone consults, but for a fairly straightforward case like mine it was a godsend to not have to travel to the office every time something didn't work as planned.
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
(offtopic) Hey Robin, I saw yet another one of your Lyme awareness flyers in Berkeley yesterday, keep it up!!!
I actually hated the PA system when I was seeing public health clinic docs prior to figuring out I had Lyme and getting an LLMD. It works OK when you have relatively simple ailments but since Lyme is such a clinical diagnosis, and such a complex disease with such bizarre symptoms, the doctor really needs to talk with the patient herself or himself in order to get the most out of the interaciton, I think.
I even hated the PA thing when I came to a clinci with a relatively straightforward tendon injury. The PA's bad assessment (which was overseen by a "real" doc with more experience who basically just signed off on the PA's conclusions) resulted in staying injured for years till I got my next sports injury and got to see a real doctor who took a few extra minutes and diagnosed the first problem correctly so I could actually treat it properly.
[ 14. June 2007, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: MariaA ]
Posted by Greatcod (Member # 7002) on :
What seems straightforward to me is that some "healers" know that there is a major problem for those desperate people who have chronic Lyme Disease,and can't get conventional treatment, and use it as an opportunity to seperate them from their money. Sorry, sometimes the truth is ugly.
Posted by LZOChicago (Member # 8641) on :
Hello-
My LLMD charged about $400 for the first visit. He did spend 2 hours with me going over 2 years of medical records and hearing me tell the my story, as well as the physical exam. The others are right -- other docs will charge $120 for 15 minutes, so that makes sense to me. Also, doctors charge and code by the complexity of the consult, and I think we all agree Lyme is the most complex.
I did see a LLMD in CT a few times, and I felt totally taken advantage of. $675 for the first appt - 1 hour and he didn't even go through all my records. Then wanted a phone consult every month for $300 a time to keep prescribing the antibx. I'm okay with paying when it makes sense and you get a lot of their time, but this was ridiculous!
BTW, can you PM me who you are seeing in WI? My doctor is also in WI.
Posted by Ellie K (Member # 12056) on :
Beore seeing me, my new LLMD wants me to sign a binding arbitration agreement, whereby I basically sign away all of my rights to bring a malpractice action.
Is this standard? Of course, I don't intend to sue anyone. But you never know; it seems fishy.
Just wondering if anyone has had that experience.
Posted by Ellie K (Member # 12056) on :
Beore seeing me, my new LLMD wants me to sign a binding arbitration agreement, whereby I basically sign away all of my rights to bring a malpractice action.
Is this standard? Of course, I don't intend to sue anyone. But you never know; it seems fishy.
Just wondering if anyone has had that experience.
Posted by Anneke (Member # 7939) on :
Prior to finding my Lyme dr., I went to an esteemed university hospital for care - an Ivy League institution. Every appt. I had lasted at the most, 15 minutes, and was nearly completely useless. Each one cost my insurance company $400.
Within reason, I think most of the respected Lyme specialists out there deserve every penny and more.
Posted by nannie (Member # 5250) on :
If an insurance company or some oversight entities ever found out that an LLMD is trying to coerce sick patients into signing a waiver providing complete immunity before agreeing to treatment, it would probably reflect very badly on the Lyme community and all LLMDs.
And no, it is probably not usual or advisable to to sign a waiver before treatment that may allow an LLMD or any other healthcare provider to charge a patient for incorrectly billed amounts, over-billed amounts, negligent care, violating your right to medical privacy, or medical care that violates human research standards.
Posted by monkeyshines (Member # 6406) on :
I just want to weigh in on the other side and say that my LLMD, at least for now, takes my insurance and does not charge particularly high fees, anyway.
Don't worry, I've been socked in plenty of other ways (i.e., all the alternative therapies I've tried ranged from expensive to very expensive and aren't covered by insurance) and I'm in a lot of debt because of that, but so far I'm very lucky with my LLMD.
monkeyshines
Posted by LZOChicago (Member # 8641) on :
That waiver sounds a little strange. My first LLMD had me sign something that explains the pros and cons of long-term antibx and how the benefits may outweigh the risks for chronic Lyme. I had to sign that I understand this, and that made sense to me.
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
I think I go to the same LLMD as her and since they basically advertise themselves as a Lyme clinic despite the current anti-LLMD political climate in the medical world, it seems sensible to try to protect themselves as much as they can. I dont' remember the language of the waiver being that strict or that weird, either, though I am not a lawyer.
Even though California protects LLMD's in issues having to do with Lyme specifically, there've been some cases of physician harassment under the flimsiest of excuses (the Lyme doctor in SoCal who is getting disciplined for REFUSING to give pain meds to a drug-addicted patient being one bizarre example).
I'm sure that anyone who gives IV antibiotics, even here in this state, has to worry about becoming an IDSA target/medical boards target if anything should go wrong with a patient's PICC line or whatever.
Posted by JimBoB (Member # 8454) on :
The point was made up above, that they charge exhorbitant fees because they CAN.
I might add BECAUSE they want to become RICH.
And most doctors are the same. Course they do have some expenses, including their insurances.
Long gone are the doctors that do it because they want to help OTHERS. It is all about helping themselves today.
Then they have the audacity to bristle their feathers, IF you question anything they are doing or saying to you.
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