Higher level of brain lesions associated with higher vitamin D intake.
There is a study I just read about -- shows that those taking higher amounts of vitamin D tended to have a greater volume of brain lesions associated with cognitive impairment. There is apparently not yet a full paper -- it was a conference abstract (see below). The multivariate analysis showed it was the higher vitamin D intake, not the calcium that had the association. Of course it was not randomized, but still indicates that vitamin D supplementation may have significant dangers.
I looked at a lot of the articles and it is remarkable the level of bias involved in favor of vitamin D even when discussing this article. The titles of the abstract and virtually all the articles on google include calcium in the titles and the articles emphasize calcium and only a small percent mention that calcium was not actually associated with the dementia when they analyzed it statistically. I am guessing this is because the only mechanism they can think of for the lesions is related to calcium deposition.
However, experience with the Marshall Protocol and molecular modeling indicates another reason. Elevated 25D leads to immune suppression and an increase in CWD (cyst form) bacteria over time. One may feel better in the short run, but it can cause problems later and slow progress. Benicar is able to achieve vitamin D receptor activation more effectively in the context of a dysregulated vitamin D metabolism that occurs in these diseases.
The dysregulation causes many people to test as having low 25D, when they often have adequate vitamin D and an elevated level of the active form of vitamin D, 1,25D. Doctors often do not measure the 1,25D form or they use a lab that doesn't freeze the sample and thus the results are not accurate -- the 1,25D is under estimated.
Just a brief look at Pubmed shows MRI brain lesions have been linked to depression, Alzheimer's and bipolar, among other things --see for instance these and the related links:
A Fully Automated Method for Quantifying and Localizing White Matter Hyperinte http://tinyurl.com/37npxn
But if you have supplemented a lot with vitamin D or got too much sun in the past, I don't see a great reason to worry. The Marshal Protocol has reversed quite significant cognitive problems in many people.
If you haven't supplemented a lot yet, I would say this study indicates that one should not in future, IMO.
see www.bacteriality.com for many new articles related to the MP and a detailed article covering vitamin D.
[ 12. October 2007, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: joycejcwat101 ]
Posted by tailz (Member # 10014) on :
I've tried taking vitamin D, and it only makes me worse - and according to blood samples, I am A and D deficient (or was). I think I read that you should never take vitamin D if you have high calcium levels.
Actually, I even feel sick in the sun. Could it be the vitamin D my body is producing in response to the sun, or just oral vitamin D?
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
I just edited the above post and added more, which may answer some of your questions. I also suggest you look at the links. Some feel better from taking vitamin D due to inhibiting Herxing. Some feel worse from more vitamin D or sun, and this is usually due to elevated 1,25D and the hormonal changes that result.
On the MP, people use either zinc oxide containing sunscreen or ketoconazole cream if they go in the sun. Although some are so sensitive, that isn't enough. People often wear hats and cover up - and there are some sun glasses that help a lot of people (NoIR). They block a much higher percentage of the light radiation than most sunglasses.
All the web sites are free and there are volunteers who will answer questions.
Joyce Waterhouse
PS And yes, you can get vitamin D from the sun or orally and either or both can have negative effects.
PPS The MP can be difficult, but many are being helped if they do it carefully and slowly -- seems like Lyme and CFS patients often have to go very slowly -- they are often much sicker than is recognized --see: http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=052824 Posted by canbravelyme (Member # 9785) on :
Boy, tailz, you and I are at the same party.
Unfortunately.
The light on my skin hurts. EMF hurts.
I believe I have been told previously that there are 2 kinds of vitamin D, and that generally the one that is tested for is the one that is "fine" with Lyme patients who have vitamin D issues.
There is apparently another test for the "other" (I apologize) vitamin D, which is the one to request.
I'm sure someone will soon clarify.
With best wishes,
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
One should really get both 25D (the usually measured, precursor form) and 1,25D (the active form).
In Lyme and other diseases with dysregulated vitamin D metabolism, 25D is typically low and 1,25D is typically high or at least normal. Though there are circumstances where the testing will not seem to show the dysregulation. But typically, that is due to a lot of vitamin D supplementation or sun exposure.
A therapeutic trial of the MP can also be used to reveal the dysregulation.
There are links to the needed info., including a link to more info. on testing vitamin D. One also needs to go to a lab that freezes the sample (the largest national lab, Quest, does so).
Joyce Waterhouse
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
"Once vitamin D is available, the body converts it
first into 25-hydroxy vitamin D
and then into 1,25-dihydroxy vitamin D (1,25-D).
This final form, which is actually a hormone, is the only active variety. Researchers loosely refer to all three substances in this biochemical cascade as "vitamin D."
The human body can generate 10,000 to 12,000 international units (IU) of vitamin D from a half-hour of summer-sun exposure. The National Academies recommend that adults, depending on their age, get from 200 to 600 IU of the vitamin each day.
In practice, however, most people in the United States get a daily intake from food and sun exposure well below that recommended intake, especially during winter.
People living in the United States and Europe or farther from the equator have trouble getting enough sun to maintain adequate blood concentrations of the vitamin.
Vitamin D may play a role in the prevention of diabetes as well as of cancer.
Many studies have linked vitamin D deficiency to an increased risk of type 2 diabetes, which used to be called adult-onset diabetes.
However, says Ken C. Chiu of the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, no one knew what aspect of the disease the vitamin might be acting on.
So, his team recently recruited 126 healthy adults and correlated their blood concentrations of vitamin D with their production of and
response to insulin.
Both these insulin parameters were low, sometimes falling below the normal range, among people with low blood concentrations of vitamin D, the researchers reported in the May 1 American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
Vitamin D deficiency "is a double jeopardy for type 2 diabetes," concludes Chiu. He says he now worries that for people on the cusp of developing the disease, vitamin deficiency might tip the balance."
"Immunity
Vitamin D in the form of 1,25(OH)2D is a potent immune system modulator.
The VDR is expressed by most cells of the immune system, including T cells and antigen-presenting cells, such as dendritic cells and macrophages (6).
***Macrophages also produce the 25(OH)D3-1-hydroxylase enzyme that converts 25(OH)D to 1,25(OH)2D (7).***
There is considerable scientific evidence that 1,25(OH)2D has a variety of effects on immune system function that may enhance innate immunity and inhibit the development of autoimmunity (8).
Insulin Secretion
The VDR is expressed by insulin secreting cells of the pancreas, and the results of animal studies suggest that 1,25(OH)2D plays a role in insulin secretion under conditions of increased insulin demand (9).
Limited data in humans suggests that insufficient vitamin D levels may have an adverse effect on insulin secretion and glucose tolerance in type 2 diabetes (noninsulin-dependent diabetes mellitus; NIDDM) (10-12)."
Bb is PFK dependent. That enzyme controls glycolysis...sugar triggering insulin. Insulin ACTIVATES PFK which is dropping. Besides Il 1 Beta blocks the insulin receptors...and more...it also impacts (halts release of) another enzyme called GAD.
glutamic acid decarboxylase = GAD. It breaks down glutamate (glutamic acid) which would really make Bb angry. Bb needs glutamate.
Bb is a happy camper because "he" wants the amino acids from fats and an ongoing supply of glycogen via gluconeogenesis.
"In its active form in the blood stream (25(OH)2D3), vitamin D has been shown to
reduce the production of inflammatory cytokines,
in particular Il-12, which may be responsible for causing the lesions on the nerves seen in MRI's of MS patients."
Inflammatory cytokines are released due to ongoing oxidative stress as the antioxidant enzymes and antioxidant intake/absorption decreases as we age.
We make less melatonin, our #2 major antioxidant, as we age, for example.
Up go the inflammatory cytokines. Up goes our need for D3. It is logical that we would use our most abundant mineral, calcium too...when the others bottom out.
If Bb's PKC inhibitor is PKC DELTA...is it surprising trivalent D3 goes up? Vitamin D3...in an attempt to counter, perhaps.
"October 03, 2007
Adequate calcium intake may help prevent breast cancer spread
One of the main sites of breast cancer metastasis is the skeleton, which is affected in approximately 70 percent of women with advanced disease.
In an article published in the October 1, 2007 issue of the journal Cancer Research Colin R. Dunstan and his associates at the at the ANZAC Research Institute in Concord, Australia report that
consuming enough calcium may be help strengthen the bones to enable them to resist metastatic disease.
Dr Dunstan's team administered diets providing low or normal levels of calcium to female mice three days before implanting breast cancer tumors. Sixteen animals in each group received osteoprotegerin, a drug used to
decrease bone resorption.
On the third day of the diets, mice that received the low calcium regimen were shown to experience secondary hyperparathyroidism and high bone turnover.
Osteoprotegerin increased parathyroid hormone levels but decreased bone resorption. On the seventeenth day following tumor implantation, mice that received the reduced calcium diets had an increase of 43 percent in bone destruction due to metastasis, and a 24 percent increase in tumor area and cancer cell proliferation compared with animals whose calcium intake was normal.
Osteoprotegerin completely prevented bone destruction and increased cancer cell apoptosis.
``These results could have implications for patients with breast cancer bone metastases or who are at high risk for developing metastatic disease,'' Dr Dunstan stated.
``Many older women in our community are known to be calcium deficient due to low calcium dietary intake or due to vitamin D deficiency. These women could be at increased risk for the devastating effects of bone metastases.''
Dr Dunstan recommends the initiation of clinical trials ``to investigate how calcium and vitamin D status influence progression to metastatic disease, and to determine if corrections of calcium and vitamin D deficiencies are important in breast cancer patients.''
In the Duke study...
"The brains of 79 men and 153 women, aged between 60 to 86, were scanned during the study."
(That is skewed!!! Too many women who, because of estrogen levels falling, are much more likely to have osteoporosis...as calcium is pulled out of the bones. Estrogen helps keep calcium in our bones, but it puts us gals at risk for some, not all, cancers.)
Given the U.S. love affair with all sorts of Rxs as we age...what drugs were those people - age range 60-86 taking?
If they were on no drugs, I'd be very very surprised.
"Cancer can cause high levels of blood calcium in different ways:
Cancers that affect the bone directly (such as multiple myeloma or leukemia) or cancers that commonly spread to the bone (such as breast cancer) cause the bone to break down, releasing excess calcium into the blood.
Some cancers produce parathyroid hormone-related protein, a chemical very similar to parathyroid hormone that causes the bone to release calcium into the blood.
Some cancers affect the ability of the kidneys to remove excess calcium.
Dehydration caused by nausea and vomiting also makes it difficult for the kidneys to remove calcium properly.
Lack of activity can cause bone to break down, releasing calcium into the blood.
Note: Hypercalcemia is not related to having too much calcium in the diet, so reducing calcium intake by eating fewer dairy products and other high-calcium foods does not help."
"Hypercalcemia is a condition in which the calcium level in your blood is above normal.
Calcium is necessary for bone formation. It also plays an important role in contracting muscles, releasing hormones and maintaining nerve and brain function. Too much calcium, however, can interfere with these processes.
The main cause of hypercalcemia is overactivity in one or more of the four glands that regulate calcium in your body (parathyroid glands).
Women older than 50 are most likely to develop hypercalcemia caused by overactive parathyroid glands.
Other causes of hypercalcemia include
cancer,
certain other medical disorders,
some medications and
excessive use of calcium and vitamin D supplements.
Signs and symptoms of hypercalcemia may range from mild to severe. Treatment depends on the underlying cause."
"Hypercalcaemia (or Hypercalcemia) is an elevated calcium level in the blood.
(Normal range: 9-10.5 mg/dL or 2.2-2.6 mmol/L).
It can be an asymptomatic laboratory finding, but because an elevated calcium level is
often indicative of other diseases,
a diagnosis should be undertaken if it persists.
It can be due to excessive skeletal calcium release,
"Excessive use of calcium-containing supplements and certain over-the-counter medications (i.e., antacids) may also cause hypercalcemia."
"The drug lithium, used in treating bipolar disorder, may increase PTH release and cause hypercalcemia."
Osteoclasts destroy bone. OsteoBlasts Build bone. Bone destruction happens faster than bone rebuilding. It takes Ca, Mg, P, boron and vitamin D to have heathy bones...all of those minerals in their right balance.
Posted by mjo (Member # 7876) on :
Why does this topic thread get so wide on the screen? Does that happen to anyone else? Made it awful hard to read.
All I know is Vitamin D taken by accident with some Vitamin A taking reduced me to disastrous level of poor health. It took me hours to get out of bed because I hurt so much. I hurt all day long. (Lyme and Babs and maybe persistent Erlichia.)
Stopped D and A. In three days I was back to my normal level of debility. No question in my mind Vitamin D is a total no-no for Lymies.
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
It's probably related to excess calcium. Arterial plaque has calcium too.
Posted by adamm (Member # 11910) on :
So does this mean we all need to stop consuming dairy products?
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
This article shows how the low 25D being associated with diseases are more likely due to a low 25D being the result, rather than the cause of the disease.
Otherwise why would the autoimmune diseases they name be improving on the MP and not increasing? Anyway, those who are interested can get a good description of the protocol at http://members.aol.com/SynergyHN/MPIntro and the links within it. I can't repeat everything here.
The cancer studies are discussed in the vitamin D article at www.bacteriality.com . The studies are all short term and might reflect either the calcium having a beneficial effect (the studies nearly always gave both) or the anti inflammatory and immunosuppressive effect of vitamin D that suppresses the killing of the bacteria.
The abstract clearly states:
In a multivariable model containing both calcium and vitamin D, only vitamin D remained significantly positively associated with lesion volume.
If it was calcium itself, they should have had a significant association as well. I think there is an assumption that it is the calcium due to lack of another hypothesis.
The reason the multivariate analysis is more important is that calcium and vitamin D intake tend to be correlated, since they add vitamin D to milk and many dairy products. But clearly there are other sources of vitamin D as well.
One does not need to avoid dairy products. If you go to the bacteriality.com site above, there is an article on food for the MP and there is another link on the MP site that explains how one can find dairy products without vitamin D. One should get adequate calcium and there are some supplement brands that do not add D. I use Solgar chelated calcium, but there are others.
But briefly, the major sources are fish and fish oil and dairy products with vitamin D on the label. I think milk is the hardest one to find without vitamin D, but I think there is an organic brand. Cheese and yogurt that say 6% or less vitamin A (they are usually add both together) typically have little vitamin D.
Of course vitamin D is often added to supplements. If you want to see what I take to avoid vitamin D in supplements, see http://members.aol.com/SynergyHN/supp
If one is going to go very far with removing D, one should read more on the MP site. Some may feel better, but others may begin Herxing more and feel worse. One should really look into the MP information, in my view.
Joyce Waterhouse
Posted by gwenb (Member # 7217) on :
Hi Joyce
I would be interested in your thoughts about the hundreds of peer-reviewed studies that have come out recently which show adequate levels of Vitamin D significantly reduce one's risk of cancer. You can find most of the studies at www.pubmed.com
Gwen
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
Gwen, Many of those studies are epidemiological and just look at latitude and sunlight. There may be other geographic factors (exposure to tick borne disease for example that has a geographic pattern). We think cancer is related to bacteria-induced inflammation -- see LAX conference DVD from www.AutoimmunityResearch.org).
We discuss more on all this in the book chapter, see above post, as well as at the conference. But maybe adequate vitamin D from sun is important early in life in slowing the acquisition of bacterial pathogens. The Vitamin D receptor (VDR) is important in immune function.
But what Dr. Marshall has found is that the bacteria can block the VDR, and 25D at high levels can help block the VDR, so this suppresses immune function. So early in life, maybe vitamin D is beneficial if it doesn't get too high, but later, the issue is different, as the VDR is blocked after we acquire more and more cell wall deficient bacteria. Benicar, used on the MP, activates the VDR, and helps us eliminate the bacteria.
Also, the studies that are not geographical are typically short term. Vitamin D may have an anti inflammatory effect that may delay the progression of the cancer. However, when calcium is removed, most of the effect is often gone.
I don't have time to go into a great amount of detail -- see the www.bacteriality.com site and other links for more.
I had suspected that perhaps those positive studies on vitamin D were missing something like cognitive effects and now this is confirmed, IMO. Perhaps vitamin D might just possibly delay cancer, but who wants to trade that for Alzheimer's. Someday, an anti bacterial treatment of cancer may be used and that will be far better all around.
Joyce Waterhouse
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Joyce, please change your URLs to tiny URL because it's messing up the whole thread.
Secondly, you're just promoting the MP view, citing bacteriality and vitamin research news and other non peer reviewed places.
Thirdly, why aren't the eskimos dead of Vitamin D, brain lesions, and lots of sarcoidosis? They eat enough fish to kill them by your viewpoint. And god knows how much sunlight is reflected by the snow leading to a veritable horrible sunbath of inflammation.
Fourthly, why is nobody who came on here promoting the MP answering *any* of my questions? Why was nobody on the other thread concerned at the serious side effects some people suffered including psuedotumor cerebri? Why isn't anybody answering Barb Peck and Penny Houle's points? Why isn't anybody answering my very good questions about chronic viral infection, Montoya's study, chronic fungal infection, Ken Laasen's protocol in which supplementing with Vitamin D is crucial, and on and on?
Just more promotion of the protocol and making assumptions about the meaning of studies.
Why can't MP people just stay on the MP or else if they come on here, answer the questions posed?
Not one person has answered Ken's question if anybody including Marshall himself, anybody with this supposed CWD problem that requires benicar and sunlight and Vitamin D avoidance, particularly any lyme patients went off their drugs and stayed well.
If not maybe it's just the low dose abx as per Roadback, where people get better but stay on them.
All the questions have been avoided.
If people on MP take the time to come onto lymenet, post about the protocol and their views, they should be prepared to answer the points and questions of other lymenet members.
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
I have answered many questions in past threads on this and many are answered in the links.
Many people can improve in the short term, or even for several years from high vitamin D, due to inhibiting Herxing.
The Eskimos are likely to have far different exposures to pathogens. I don't have detailed information on the rate of various bacteria related diseases nor on their life expectancy either currently or in the past and do not have time to research it.
I may have time to address some of your other points, but I am very busy. We will see.
In my first post I gave a link to a previous Lymenet post, where I address why some people have a lot of trouble on the MP.
In any case, whether or not one feels like studying the MP, I hope they will feel more cautious about the safety of taking a lot of vitamin D.
One of the problems is that people who seek feeling better in the short term are going to often end up inadvertently suppressing their Herxing. So, they may think they are healthier than they are. When they go on the MP, and stop the vitamin D and other supplements, it can be like stopping their immune suppressant (eg. going off their prednisone).
Perhaps you could explain why the people that have done very well on the MP (eg. for example, at the above link) if Ken and these other people are correct and the MP theory is wrong.
We also have several people who did not do well on antibiotic alone protocols, including the Roadback or had only partial recovery, who have had much greater success on the MP.
A couple such people are interviewed on the www.bacteriality.com site and there are others on the DVDS and elsewhere. I can't help it if peer reviewed journals are slow to be interested in a revolutionary treatment. But there are many peer reviewed articles cited by myself and others if one chooses to read about it.
But, to each his own path.
Best Wishes to all whatever you choose to try,
Joyce Waterhouse
Joyce Waterhouse
Posted by Michelle M (Member # 7200) on :
I have enough brain lesions to qualify as a piece of walking swiss cheese.
I don't take Vitamin D and grew up too poor to ever have a carton of milk in the house, apart from what came with a school lunch.
It does seem curious every single one of your posts relates to the Marshall Protocol. Do you sell something, or what?
Hopefully you just want to help others with something that works for you.
Michelle
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Boy, this thread is just impossible to read.
Joyce, please learn to use the Tiny URL website so these threads don't get so wide. Even if I make the text smaller, it doesn't work well.
Thanks - I know that you are busy, but a thread that people struggle to read isn't very helpful.
Tracy
Posted by gwenb (Member # 7217) on :
Hi Joyce
I am sure you are well read enough to realize that the recent studies regarding adequate Vitamin D and lower cancer rates are very compelling. I find that Marshall Protocol proponents present a lot of information that is very misleading about Vitamin D - such as the notion that suppression of Vitamin D actually helps to control inflammation.
Here are some studies from pubmed regarding Vit D suppressing inflammation.
I also find it odd that you appear to dismiss the relationship between latitude and sunshine and cancer rates. Sunshine produces Vitamin D in the body and the fact that cancer rates increase in areas with less sunshine and higher latitudes is directly relevant to the argument that adequate levels of Vitamin D (which controls cell proliferation and differentiation) significantly reduce cancer rates.
I also find it interesting that you mention bacteria blocks the vitamin d receptor - and treatment of the Marshall protocol supposedly reverses that problem, yet the Marshall protocol starves the vdr of Vitamin D.
Although many of the studies on Vitamin D and its beneficial impact on reducing cancer could be considered short-term, many recent studies are not: including the 4-year peer-reviewed study which showed women supplementing with vitamin D, at over 1,000 IU daily, reduced their risk of cancer by an astounding 70 percent. Also the fact that some studies are not long term does not necessarily lessen the importance of their conclusions such as the study which found that patients with Vitamin D levels in the highest quadrant had a dramatically reduced incident of breast cancer - http://tinyurl.com/yo5c5z .
I haven't found compelling studies where the effect of Vitamin is often gone when calcium is removed; on the contrary there seems to be a plethora of studies which show Vitamin D has a beneficial effect on its own.
I am not sure what you meant when you said that Vitamin D studies are missing cognitive effects.
In regards to your concession that "vitamin D might just possibly delay cancer, but who wants to trade that for Alzheimer's," I could find little in the way of indepedent peer-reviewed studies to connect high levels of Vit D with Alzheimer's. Instead I found a peer-reviewed article which noted low levels of Vit D in Alzheimer's patients and several articles correlating higher levels of Vitamin D with improved levels of cognition in older adults.
The Marshall Protocol, which amongst other things promotes starving the body of Vitamin D, is a controversial and potentially dangerous approach to treating Lyme disease. I think you do a grave disservice to the readers of this forum by not acknowledging the very real dangers associated with lowering Vitamin D levels.
Gwen
Posted by pineapple (Member # 11904) on :
I began taking D3 as recommended by my LLMD and it made me feel better, not worse. My brain lesions have not gotten worse, as confirmed by MRI.
It is also helpful for me to get some daily sun. It feels good to be outdoors again, emotionally and physically.
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
Gwen, I have read extensively in the vitamin D literature. You can read the book chapter link and the very long www.bacteriality.com article on vitmain D and you will see it explains all the topics you bring up. I don't have time to repeat them here.
I have been writing a newsletter for 10 years --available free online. The newsletter is purely to help people as best I can. I have spent far more money on it than I have received.
The patients in the study by Payne were older, so it may take a long time for the lesions to develop. I believe all the vitamin D topics are addressed in one or another of the links I have mentioned.
Sorry about the links messing up the post. I had no idea that would happen.
Best Wishes to all,
Joyce Waterhouse PS Re pseudotumor cerebri, I suggest you google that term by itself and then with the marshall protocol. I have not seen convincing evidence of anyone developing it on the MP.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
for CanBraveLyme and Tailz -
if the light / sun hurts your skin, you might check into getting evaluated for porphyria. there are at least 11 types, one of which means - sunlight skin stuff, it's a liver enyzme def. involving Cytochrome P-450 detox pathway.
there can be genetic, acquired or secondary
I just can't focus with those emoticons moving below this type screen. ' sorry - Mayo has the best tests. Canadian Porphyria Foundationa - and the American P. Fd., too. google.
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
Thanks, Carol, it looks like I was able to fix it with your help.
I wanted to repeat some information on why I think some people have more trouble on the MP that I may have mentioned before. It can be difficult for some people, though, for many others, one can start feeling better right from the beginning, as in my case. For some it takes 6 months or longer and a very few struggle even longer.
The major reason, IMO, is that some people have much higher bacterial loads than they realize, with bacteria that are intracellular or resistant to other regimes (biofilm and cell wall deficient bacteria). Often they are taking supplements, including vitamin D that may be palliative and may make them feel better than they would if their immune system were attacking these bacteria, which they begin to do often quite vigorously on the MP.
I think some people have a difficult time on the MP due to certain food and medication sensitivities (see http://members.aol.com/SynergyHN/CGA10-3a ), some due to trying to progress too quickly (even though they may be following the guidelines -some just can't tolerate the pace others use), and others do not follow it correctly (sometimes the doctors do not study it enough).
Also, I think some would do better in the approach I used starting at even lower doses (see http://members.aol.com/SynergyHN/transcript ). There is also a doctor in British Columbia who consults with doctors and patients on difficult cases.
There may be some people for which doing another protocol first (one that is able to induce Herxing) may not be a bad idea. Some people have done the Roadback protocol first (www.roadback.org) and had some partial success and then moved to the MP to finish off the killing. I spent two years on various combinations of daily high dose oral antibiotics and Herxed very little and did not improve at all.
I encourage everyone to research any treatment thoroughly before beginning.
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
Please note Gwen B's post that she really turned the corner with Vit. D supplements:
Scroll down a bit for the relevant post. She's now back to work fulltime.
Also Mark London's posts on immunesupport, on a thread about MP--refuting the Vit D theory of Marshall, which is based on computer modelling. He followed up not only looking at pubmed studies but by contacting Vit. D researchers.
Posted by gwenb (Member # 7217) on :
Just to let people know I have worked the entire time I have had Lyme disease, but the Vitamin D dramatically improved my quality of life and enabled me to go back to the gym and start biking to work 5-6 days a week.
Gwen
Posted by Truthfinder (Member # 8512) on :
Thanks very much for taking the time to fix this thread, Joyce! I'm sure that was a chore.
I had blood drawn yesterday for the 25D and 1,25D tests, along with a test for parathyroid hormone levels. I don't really know what to do with the Vit D test results, but I'll cross that bridge when I see them.
It appears that I'm fighting a tough battle with osteoporosis, and I have no clue how THAT figures into all of this. Posted by gwenb (Member # 7217) on :
Vitamin D deficiency contributes to osteoporosis - there are lots of peer-reviewed studies showing the connection.
Gwen
Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :
1: Eur Neurol. 1997;37(4):225-9.
Hypovitaminosis D and decreased bone mineral density in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis.
Sato Y, Honda Y, Asoh T, Kikuyama M, Oizumi K. Department of Neurology, Futase Social Insurance Hospital, Iizuka, Japan. [email protected]
To assess the bone health of patients with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), we evaluated the bone density and serum biochemical indices of bone metabolism in 11 ALS patients.
The serum concentration of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25-OHD) was significantly lower in patients than in controls, at deficient levels in 2, and at insufficient levels in 9 patients.
Serum levels of parathyroid hormone (PTH) and ionized calcium were elevated in 8 and 6 patients, respectively.
Dietary intake of vitamin D was below the recommended level (100 IU) in 10 patients, and 10 patients were in a sunlight-deprived state.
The metacarpal bone density (MBD) and the metacarpal index (MCI) of the second metacarpal bone were measured by computed X-ray densitometry.
Z scores of the MBD and the MCI were negative in 7 and 6 patients, respectively. The serum concentration of 25-OHD was positively correlated with the Z score of the MBD and negatively with the PTH level. The degree of dysfunction of hand grip also correlated with the Z score of the MBD.
These data underscore the importance of hypovitaminosis D and compensatory hyperparathyroidism in the development of osteopenia in patients with ALS.
PMID: 9208262
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
I have described in my initial posts in this thread about why much of the literature has missed the important role of vitamin D dysregulation and that this has led to misinterpretation of low 25D levels(e.g., see October 7th posts, 25D is the inactive precursor form of vitamin D that is usually measured).
I briefly discuss these issues in several links, such as
Molecular modelling and clinical experience with the MP indicates 25D at high levels blocks the VDR, especially when combined with substances produced by pathogens that block the VDR (Vitamin D Receptor). Lowering 25D and adding Benicar (which both activates the VDR and has some anti inflammatory effects), is the approach the MP uses. Activating the Vitamin D Receptor is what really counts, not the level of the precursor 25D.
For more details see articles on vitamin D and osteoporosis at www.bacteriality.com . This explains the many effects the blockage of the VDR has on the vitamin D metabolism, leading often to low measured levels of 25D and high levels of the active 1,25D form.
Joyce Waterhouse PS I looked at the ALS abstract cited above and find they did not report on their calcium intake, which is often deficient. If their VDRs were blocked, as I mentioned above, that could also cause a rise in parathyroid hormone. After reading the study on brain lesions I started this thread with, it may have been lucky for their survival and brain function they did not have higher vitamin D intake. Also, inflammation is also a cause of osteoporosis -- see article on it at www.bacteriality.com
[ 13. October 2007, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: joycejcwat101 ]
Posted by joycejcwat101 (Member # 6848) on :
I also thought I should add this abstract indicating those MRI lesions I mentioned above as having shown a correlation with higher vitamin D intake have been linked to increased rates of death in elderly patients, in addition to the correlations with cognitive impairment and depression. But, as I mentioned above, they appear to be reversible. Many on the MP have had improved cognitive function and in the long run, have adequate or even improved bone density.
Kerber et al in:
J Neurol Sci. 2006 Dec 1;250(1-2):33-8. Epub 2006 Aug 4.
Increased risk of death in community-dwelling older people with white matter hyperintensities on MRI.
BACKGROUND: Previous studies in subjects with a history of stroke have shown that white matter hyperintensities (WMH) on MRI are associated with increased risk of death. However, it has not been determined whether WMH are independently related to death in community-dwelling older people without stroke. METHODS: In a sample of community-dwelling people over 75 years with no history of stroke or other neurological diseases, WMH on brain MRI T2-weighted sequences were classified as grade 0, grade 1, or grade 2. Grade 2 WMH were identified in 36 subjects. Age- and sex-matched grade 0 and grade 1 WMH groups were selected for comparison to the grade 2 WMH group. All subjects underwent an initial clinical evaluation and were followed for a median of 11.8 years (interquartile range=10.7 to 12.2 years). Cox proportional-hazards analysis was used to determine the independent association between WMH and time to death from any cause. RESULTS: In an unadjusted analysis, grade 2 WMH was associated with death from any cause (hazard ratio=1.98; 95% confidence interval=1.06, 3.70). After adjustment for hypertension, high cholesterol, diabetes, and coronary artery disease, grade 2 WMH remained significantly associated with death (hazard ratio=2.31; 95% confidence interval=1.21, 4.40) in these age- and sex-matched groups. CONCLUSIONS: Severe WMH increase the risk of death, even in community-dwelling elderly without stroke or other neurological disease, independent of other covariates including hypertension, age, and coronary artery disease.
PMID: 16889799 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by oxygenbabe (Member # 5831) on :
"Molecular modelling and clinical experience with the MP"
Whose molecular modelling--MP? Mark London explains why that is specious...and didn't work for statins.
Clinical experience? You see from the other thread the selective perception is extreme--successes are cheered, failures are said to be those having a herx from high pathogen load and activated immune system, and thus not failures...just too weak...
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