I've searched this board, the internet, and the "symptom lists" and am still confused as to how to tell, by symptoms alone, the difference between babs and bart. I have my own theory regarding some of the distinguishing characteristics but was wondering if some of you would mind sharing your LLMDs' statements regarding how to tell the difference between the two?????
Here's my list of SOME of the distinguishing characteristics:
Bart: shin bone pain; if have OCD-type thoughts they are often more severe than with babs; the cat-scratch rashes; really sore soles; arms/shoulders feel heavy, making it difficult to lift things; relapse quickly after stopping IV Rocephin
Babs: heavy-legs feeling, like they have lead in them when climbing stairs; severe muscle aches; very stiff neck upon taking babs meds; muscles often feel extremely tight like you want someone to stretch them and roll them out; after taking babs meds for awhile, your legs feel like they've run a marathon; anemia-like feeling, especially upon taking babs meds....
(I didn't list things like air hunger or night sweats, for ex., as I've known people that have both with babs and bart)...
WHAT DO YOUR LLMDS SAY????
Thanks so much!!!
[ 13. March 2008, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Bugg ]
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
I think your title is wrong: you ask what the difference between babs and babesia is. I think you mean bart and babesia? Posted by Michelle M (Member # 7200) on :
Have you considered doing a test with Fry Labs?
They can pretty easily visualize BOTH bartonella and babesia in a blood smear. Check them out (see the Newbie Links, or do a search with "Fry" in the title line.)
Michelle
Posted by Nori (Member # 8983) on :
Yes, for bart the sore soles and the arms/shoulders feeling heavy weak, making it difficult to lift things is also a big issue for me
Posted by adamm (Member # 11910) on :
Mine said that when babs is present as co-infection, there's
generally a fair amount of malaise, chills, and sweating.
I have Bb and Bart for sure, and, with the exception of
a swollen knuckle, headaches, and some general stiffness, feel fine
physically.
Posted by aklnwlf (Member # 5960) on :
This isn't from my treating physician but here's my symptoms of Bart:
Severe anxiety with vibrating feeling.
Fatigue but trouble sleeping.
Headaches, blurry vision, cognitive issues and some emotional issues.
Bottoms of feet painful.
Subcutaneous nodules along back of thighs, calfs and upper arms.
Ringworm type of rash.
The foot problems along with those nodules is what convinced me that I have Bart.
Posted by daise (Member # 13622) on :
Hi Bugg,
How are you doing?
I was negative by western blot for bart and babs. Fry Lab testing is not paid by my insurance.
Current meds: I am pulsing all four: Septra, biaxin, amoxicillan and flagyl.
I didn't relapse after 6 months of IV Rocephen. I went straight to ten months of LA Bicillin shots.
I've taken Septra (along with biaxin for about 14 months) for bart for 3 months. It's definately hitting some different areas as I've had distinctive herxes versus from the Lyme herxes.
Here are my bart herx distinguishing features: I have a bone infart (not cancer) in my lower right femur, above my knee. 4 years ago that caused a huge, warm lump there. It took time but settled to nearly gone.
The herx brought it back on (though not nearly as huge and warm) so much so that my LLMD asked me to get the bone infarct looked into again by a specialist. Again, no cancer.
At this point, in my mind, I consider this bart and possibly Lyme in my femur. I've read recently about bart affecting the immune system--my immune system is dead in the lower part of my right femur. From my viewpoint--yes, I believe that's bart.
I have NEW pain with bart herxes around my neck-head. I have constant head pain, though Lyme treatment greatly reduced it. Haven't had head pain this bad in herx for about 9 months. So again, I'm thinking that's bart.
I had a distinctive herx pain for a couple days along a "line" in back, around the base of my skull. Never had that pain before. Bart?
I wonder if I've had bart since I was a girl because the soles of my feet used to tingle and hurt and burn. They were red. Perhaps it was bart from a cat flea or scratch.
Don't know if I ever had bart rashes. Certainly not in the last (over) 4 decades.
Lifetime insomnia. Bart?
It's a big stretch ... perhaps ... did bart cause PCOS (Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome,) which causes a lot of diabetes in females? I don't have diabetes but take Metformin for PCOS.
What are OCD-type thoughts?
Arms/shoulders feel heavy--Lyme treatment and weightlifting machines have helped a lot. Recently they feel heavier in herx for bart.
Yes, I had a "ringworm type" of bulls-eye rash. It was huge and covered half my left thigh. It had clearing in the middle.
The addition of Septra DS has made a difference, as far as herxing!
--------- Babs.
I start Mepron next month. I'll print, from your list, what I have:
* Heavy-legs feeling, like they have lead in them when climbing stairs, though much improved with Lyme treatment.
* Severe muscle aches (much improved with Lyme treatment.)
* Muscles often feel extremely tight like you want someone to stretch them and roll them out (bingo! Since last June I've taken dance-stretching in a warm pool to heart. That's helped a lot.
I never had a fever, not even from Lyme. No night sweats. I went through menopause, starting 4 years ago. I had very little problem with hot flashes, which were rather mild and always in the evening.
Just about all of my signs and symptoms came on SUDDENLY--in the same hour, 4 years ago, including: Bells palsy, the big, warm lump from femur, severe muscle pain on rt. side, arthritis on rt. side, etc. I've "heard" that SUDDEN things happening may indicate babs.
There it is!
daise Posted by daise (Member # 13622) on :
(more flood problems)
Posted by Bugg (Member # 8095) on :
Wow! These are great clarifications...Yes, I should have definitely added nodules to the bart list....Also, does it seem that long-term, unrelenting headaches are attributed to bart and not babs?
Posted by daise (Member # 13622) on :
Bugg,
you wrote: "Also, does it seem that long-term, unrelenting headaches are attributed to bart and not babs?"
I don't know. I've had constant (24/7) head pain for over 3 1/2 years, though it's much improved. For 2 1/2 years it was severe.
daise Posted by tickbattler (Member # 14873) on :
daise- Just curious - where has your constant head pain been? In the front, top or back of your head? My husband has had head pain for almost the past year. That is the one symptom that never goes away. We are trying to figure out if it is lyme, bart or babs! Thanks, tickbattler
Posted by Rianna (Member # 11038) on :
Babesia - I get a cycling depression with head pressure bi/weekly and very vivid dreams and petecia that pops all over my body.
Bartonella- Very much more CNS, pains in feet, over stimulated reflexes and anxiety
Mentioned the above to LLMD and he said that what I explained was classic in both and then confirmed I had both with a blood test.
He also said I will not respond any further to lyme treatment until these co-infections are addressed and that they have got so bad as I was given lyme treatment without treating Co-infections, so they are left to go wild. So a word of advice for anyone: ensure your LLMD treats co-infections before or at the start of your treatment as I would hate for you to go through what I have had to experience.
Rianna
Posted by listenswithcare (Member # 10719) on :
I'm so glad to be reading this thread. Just had my LLMD visit again. I've been having some symptoms getting worse and wondering if it is Babs or Bart. I'm pretty convinced I have Bart, but now I'm thinking Babs, too. Although, last year I had 2 months Malarone/Biaxin without much progress.
Last night I started taking Bactrim DS in addition to Zith and Bicillin. And, then I re-read this post
severe muscle aches; very stiff neck upon taking babs meds; muscles often feel extremely tight like you want someone to stretch them and roll them out;
Wow! My neck is SO severly stiff today and last night I couldn't sleep for a long time. Went to the chiropractor a little while ago and he seems to get it worked out some - had some bones out of place, but it still feels stiff to me. Not as painful, though.
I guess time will tell if it is herx or just bones out of place (if it was just that, I think I would have gotten more relief at chiropractor).
Robin
Posted by daise (Member # 13622) on :
Hi Tickbattler,
My head pain is in the back, on the right side, behind my ear. It's tied-in with pain in my right neck and shoulders. I have Lyme, bart and babs.
Head pain is known to be caused by Lyme and Lyme treatment has made mine much better. I'm in the middle of treatment for bart and next months I start babs treatment.
It's hard to say what's causing the rest of my head pain--bart or babs, as I'm in the middle of treatment.
Have you ever started a thread before? I suggest you do, in the medical forum.
Let us know how long he's had signs and symptoms and list every sign and symptom, including what he feels in his head--and his body.
daise Posted by Clarissa (Member # 4715) on :
My LLMD gave me permission to quote him on this topic:
"You can reduce/kill body load of Lyme if Bartonella is present but will NOT cure Lyme without killing Bartonella first."
This may apply to Babesia but he only quoted Bartonella. He said he has had many patients test positive for Bart and negative for everything else.
Upon treating Bart, then slowly, the other results become positive, i.e.: Babs, Lyme & Ehrlichia.
Somehow the Bart suppresses the Lyme & other coinfections from showing up on tests. So, Rianna is right, Bart must be treated first!
However, don't be in despair if you haven't done it in that order. I asked him if my Lyme treatment 5 years ago was a waste of time.
He said absolutely not because I killed a LOT of spirochetes! I'm just not "cured or totlaly rid of it" yet due to the Bart & Babs.
I use the word "cure" with TBD's cautiously as I'm not convinced that it will completely all go away.
However, I am confident that you can beat the TBD's down, build up your immune system and live a normal healthy life...eventually.
Best,
Posted by TexasChaos (Member # 7465) on :
My LLMD tested me for Babs based on little red petechia all over and my anemia, in addition to fatigue and severe muscle pain.
My Babesia test came back negative after over a year of treatment, so hopefully it is now gone. The muscle pain is MUCH improved. Still have awful joint and nerve pain though.
I am still trying to separate my Bart symptoms from Lyme symptoms. The OCD-type symptoms seem to be Bart-related for sure, and some other very odd neuro symptoms I've had (for example, feeling like my teeth are falling out, but they aren't!)
Posted by bernieb4 (Member # 14654) on :
I've had Lyme for 10 months and never got tested for bab or bart, though, based on my symptoms believed I had one or both. I have a lot of bart symptoms, and just yesterday my girlfriend was looking at my back when she said I had some weird stretch marks on it. I never had any rash from Lyme or anything, until now. I've been taking Doxy400mg and Zith500mg for just over two weeks and this rash has just come about (along with worsened fatigue, neuro. and psycho. symptoms, and eye problems). Does this mean the abx are kicking it out of my body, or does it mean they're not going to work for it since the symptoms are becoming further realized? -------------- I read this very new article on bartonella-it was quite interesting, frightening and relative, plus the case study was a guy from WI like me.
Get a picture of the rashes on your back, preferably in outdoor light. Hold a newspaper nearby with the date on it. Now you have a document to show doctors.
(Just in case the rashes should disappear in the morning, best to get a picture now--inside. Tomorrow--outside.)
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