Does lyme arthritis disfigure joints like osteoarthritis does?
Thanks for replies, bf
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I don't think so. Osteoarthritis is not supposed to disfigure...it's rheumatoid arthritis that does that.
Lyme CAN eat the joints, so I wonder if they can become disfigured? I've had Lyme arthritis for at least 27 yrs and no disfiguring yet. (I've had Lyme for 49 yrs and counting.)
Posted by brf (Member # 8748) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: I don't think so. Osteoarthritis is not supposed to disfigure...it's rheumatoid arthritis that does that.
Lyme CAN eat the joints, so I wonder if they can become disfigured? I've had Lyme arthritis for at least 27 yrs and no disfiguring yet. (I've had Lyme for 49 yrs and counting.)
Thanks for the reply.
My little finger has just grown a bump on the side of it. When I showed it to the Lyme doctor he said "Oh - osteoarthritis." I've been ill for 25 years and have only been receiving treatment for the last 1 1/2 years. The only thing I've done differently lately is added bromelain.
To Better Health, bf
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
hmmm... I don't understand that. Maybe osteo can cause bumps but not disfigurement?? Posted by groovy2 (Member # 6304) on :
Hi --
My joints always looked normal --
But Hurt Very Very bad - cracked -snapped and popped -
I took Gluscosimine Sulfate to help rebuild my joints --
GS helped me tremendously - I took 2000 mg of GS daily for many years -- worth Every penny too --
I have written about GS Many times so do a search on GS or on me for more info-
-- Jay --
Posted by duke77 (Member # 5051) on :
quote: In smaller joints, such as at the fingers, hard bony enlargements, called Heberden's nodes (on the distal interphalangeal joints) and/or Bouchard's nodes (on the proximal interphalangeal joints), may form, and though they are not necessarily painful, they do limit the movement of the fingers significantly. OA at the toes leads to the formation of bunions, rendering them red or swollen.
This article is from Wikipedia. Osteoarthritis does cause bony growths especially on hands and fingers. A distinguishing feature of OA vs. RA is that with RA the more you use the joint the better it feels with OA it is opposite.
Posted by Gabrielle (Member # 5329) on :
My arthritic fingers and toes got bumps, too.
Have a look at the good old Lyme Disease checklist of Dr. Bleiweiss:
Among untreated patients with LD, arthritis can ultimately develop in up to 60%. The joint swelling, which may or may not be painful, frequently is episodic, recurrent and migratory if multiple joints are involved. Any joint can be affected including the TMJ (temporomandibular) and small joints of the fingers (contrary to earlier reports). Up to 10% of untreated LD arthritis can develop into destructive/deforming synovitis almost identical to Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA)....
Gabrielle
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Thanks for the info, duke and Gabrielle [groovy too!]. I have episodic swelling of two joints in my hands.
It's in the knuckle below the forefinger on the hand.
Used to be only on my left hand, but is now on my right hand also, which is definitely problematic at times.
Right now, neither knuckle is swollen, thank goodness! Posted by roro (Member # 13383) on :
I am not sure what you mean by disfigurement, but Lyme disease definitely causes arthritis.
I have a lot of soft tissue damage, and also bone spurs and wearing of the bones. maybe the lyme caused the disc, cartilage problems, and then those problems in turn caused the bone problems, but ultimately if a caused b, and b caused c, then a caused c
Posted by ralph (Member # 9189) on :
I saw a patient with Lyme that had very disfigured joints, very much like rheumatoid. Some health pros are now beginning to think that much of RA is actually lyme in most cases. Blood testing for RA is positive in only 2 of 3 cases, the 1 out of 3 is diagnosed by symptoms.
IME lyme seems to like the joints, heart and nervous system. Make sense ?
Posted by pamoisondelune (Member # 11846) on :
I have lyme arthritis in my thumbs/thumb area, and i found one helpful thing: a few months ago, the thumbs got so bad that i was saying "ouch!". It was time to do something. So 4 times in two weeks i rubbed thyme oil undiluted on the skin of the thumbs (i think one is not supposed to do that). The fourth time, the thumbs got itchy for a couple of days, and the skin was red and bumpy for a month, so i stopped.
For several months afterward, the thumbs were much improved and didn't hurt enough to say "ouch!". Now they're starting to get ouchy again, so this time i'll rub them with diluted thyme oil, especially if i can get some advice about how much is too much.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
I have RA and I have lyme and I have osteoarthritis. Please let me set the record straight about a few things.
1-RA is not a disease. It is not a bacteria nor a virus. It is simply the name given to a disorder wherein the immune system attacks the joints causing disfigurement and pain.
2-Lyme is known as one cause of RA. Rheumatologists believe this but they believe the lyme is gone and you are left with the RA.
3-Mycoplasmas also cause RA as does strep bacteria. This has been heavily researched and studied. See www.roadback.org.
4-LLMDs and other doctors (usually not Rheumies) believe ongoing bacterial and viral infections and fungi can cause RA and getting rid of the microbes gets rid of the RA.
5-Genetics play a big part in determining what illness you get when your immune system becomes overwhelmed.
5-I am working with an LLMD/Rheumatologist. This dr believes in infectious causes of RA as well as other contributing factors.
Every single doctor I have worked with says OA is genetic. Period. My arthritis hit suddenly and was both RA and OA. I test positive for lyme, Babs WA-1, EBV, Mycoplasmas, H. Pylori.
I am managing and reducing my illness and joint damage with diet, supplements, herbal IVs and low dose doxy 100 mg MWF. I have brought my RA from a high to a weak positive and am shooting for full remission.
Initially, I was in serious bad shape with swollen joints everywhere in my body except my hips and spine. I was completely housebound and very, very helpless. I couldn't even brush my own hair. I was seriously sick.
Today, I am working fulltime and tending my farm of 3 horses and two dogs. So far, my only joint damage is my left wrist which is also my dominant hand. Surgical fusion may be in my future.
I have the OA bumps on 4 fingers and one thumb. It is called Heberden's Node. Drs consistently dismiss this as "nothing to worry about". Everytime I hear it, I want to draw back my arthritic little hands and hit them with all my remaining strength.
The bacterias in me certainly have contributed to my RA, OA. They also caused some other conditions in me that were contributing to my RA and had to be dealt with in order for me to feel better.
1-Leaky Gut Syndrome. You can easily test yourself for this condition by trying a vegan low fat diet for 2 weeks. If LGS is causing any of your symptoms, you will get immediate, noticeable relief by eating this very anti-inflammatory diet.
2-systemic yeast. I have had to have abx of one kind or another practically every year of my life mostly due to strep infections, tonsilitis, bronchitis, sinunitis, first round of lyme disease. In spite of 1 diflucan pill after each round of abx (only started this in my adult life) I developed systemic yeast. It had to be eliminated through diet, detox.
3-Environmental toxicity. I have toxicity from heavy metals, molds, drugs, bugs. I am still under doctor controlled detox going on 2 yrs now. Of course, the bugs, the metals, the molds all caused toxicity in my body and the detox involves all these things.
Why do I have so much and why am I so toxic?
A recent gene test reveals the answer to my current state of illness.
I am defective in certain genes necessary to clear toxins from my body. In fact, I am very defective. Basically, I have been accumulating toxins from drugs, bugs, environment my entire life. Kind of amazing that I had a good life for 49 yrs before going down.
After this test, my dr yanked all abx except the doxy. She said "I have been poisoning you". For the rest of my life I will be detoxing and trying to avoid the things that make me toxic. Some natural ways that help all of us detox.
1-cruciferous vegetables. I always knew these were healthy and good cancer fighters, but I did not know they help the body produce glutathione.
3-exercise...for those who can exercise hard enough to sweat, wonderful detox. For others, sauna. For me....no sauna yet as dr says I am still too toxic. Somewhere in my future though.
4-Rebounder. Excellent for clearing lymph glands. I love this form of exercise. When I started, my knees and ankles couldn't take it so I would just sit and bounce. Now I can really rock and roll for 30 mins. It is very helpful for me with sinus drainage particularly. But it also helps alliviate joint pain.
5-Plenty of fiber from fruits and veggies to keep you really regular. Liver and kidneys are the #1 detoxers. Drink lots of water too.
Don't attempt any artificial forms of detox without your doctor's supervision. I got into some real trouble trying some detox products on my own. If your doctor is not versed in detoxing, find another doctor who is and work with both of them.
www.acam.org is a great source for doctors trained beyond regular medical school.
Luvs
Posted by ralph (Member # 9189) on :
thanks, luv, for the detailed reply.
As RA is an autoimmune disease, the implication is that the body is attacking something it can't find well. If RA is progressive, then do you think that the lyme is not being eliminated well?
And can it be totally eliminated. These may sound like dumb questions, but I would like your opinion.
On yeast, best thing I have seen / used is an herbal mix called #4 from Systemic Formulas of Ogden UT. Available thru health pros only. Great reference is "Conquer Candida and Restore Your Immune System" by Dr. Jack Tips. Published about 20 something years ago but best I have read on yeast.
And the rebounder is a great way to go. I am sitting here typing when I should be on mine. After about 15 to 20 minutes I usually feel I am about 6 years old, and I do really like that.
Posted by SouthernCO (Member # 11167) on :
I've had Lyme arthritis in the knees and lower legs as well as the low back since Dec. 21, 1994. So far no swelling.
My med. dictionary says that Lyme arthritis is arthritis without swelling. Obviously, other joint problems could introduce swelling.
Don't know if my dictionary is outdated but that's what it says.
Posted by lifeline (Member # 3445) on :
Luvs,
Very, very informative explanation. Thanks.
I have OA, now mostly ankles, and have been using glucosamine sulfate from Whole Foods (thanks, groovy), and it has helped.
When an episode of pain hits, due to having bone on bone in one of my ankles, it hits hard, and you feel it tremendously, but I am hoping even that will get better.
I don't have the bony nodules that have been discussed, luckily, but, right now, the painful ankle is enough to deal with.
My knees, surprisingly, have gotten better, so I guess these awful keets like to move around hitting a different area. Don't know what's next!
lifeline
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Lifeline and others,
You may be very interested in this science regarding regrowing cartilage with stem cells. I am watching it closely.
There is a doctor in Florida who is doing this; however, my information on him is at home. I am really busy the next 2 days, but asap, I will get his website info and post it here.
I believe the doctor in Florida uses your own stem cells.
As RA is an autoimmune disease, the implication is that the body is attacking something it can't find well. If RA is progressive, then do you think that the lyme is not being eliminated well?
That would be one horrible way to get rid of Lyme.
I do believe the immune system is trying to kill lyme, strep, mycoplasmas, partially digested food stuck in the joints, so on and on. I do not believe my immune system woke up one morning and just flipped out and started running amok.
In fact, I so much believe that, for the first year of treatment I would not use immune suppressing drugs. I worked with an ACAM doctor at rebuilding my immune system, not harnessing it. This approach worked well.
Last May (2007) after a rebite, I went to an LLMD for abx as I felt I was suffering a new infection. This dr is also a rheumatologist so in addition to abx and supplements, she put me on Methotrexate and Enbrel. Well, at least she tried. Insurance drug their feet and all in all I only had 3 months of MTX injections (lowest dose possible) and I had 3 shots of Humira.
I had just received the Enbrel when I developed tonsilitis and she stopped the MTX and Enbrel pronto. (I stopped the Humira due to extremely painful to inject) At this same visit, she found inflammation returning to all my joints.
So, we ran the gene test to see what was going on.
I just do not believe the immune system is in overdrive. Dr wanted me on the MTX and Enbrel simply because she was attacking the bugs with abx and did not want me to suffer joint damage from the herxing.
Now we are doing an alternative approach and so far, so good.
SouthernCo,
I believe lyme arthritis can include swelling. For one thing, 3 doctors have diagnosed me with lyme arthritis and I have had my fair share of swelling.
Also, I have read many times here about others who have swollen joints as well as others who do not. So, I'm thinking that swelling is not a good way to differentiate.
I don't even think we should differentiate. I think lyme arthritis can be osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis or any other arthritis. Lyme is one of the possible causes. Whether or not your lyme goes into RA or OA depends upon your immune system and your genetics.
In my case, I believe the strep is causing me more issue than the lyme. Of course, I could be real wrong about that one, but strep just keeps popping up all over my body.
Can you believe I have actually had strep on the brain and twice I have had strep in the spine?
Luvs
Posted by lifeline (Member # 3445) on :
Very, very interesting...I will keep my eye on this.
Thanks.
lifeline
P.S. The orthopedic I went to was very discouraging about my ankle and stated it will get worse. Unfortunately, I had to pay him for that! Of course, I won't be going back to him...ever...the RA I went to was more encouraging, so I really think it depends on who you go to.
Posted by SouthernCO (Member # 11167) on :
luvs2ride:
I know from my reading here that Lyme arthritis can include swelling. I happen to have the kind which has no joint swelling. Imagine telling a quacking pcp you have knee pain but he sees no swelling. The word psychosomatic goes flying from their lips.
Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary says the following happens after the initial Lyme infection: "Within the next few days or as late as two years later, polyarthritis without joint swelling develops."
In my case, the arthritis without swelling developed 26 months after the initial infection.
Posted by IMHisda (Member # 6998) on :
They can't find any RA on me but I do have a little joint disfigurement I guess you could say in my hand joints that hurt the most and I'm starting to get it in my feet. My back is messed up from Lyme too I think.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
IMH,
I'm happy they can't find RA in you. One thing a lot of people do not know about RA is that it attacks the organs just like it attacks the joints. It can be deadly.
OA does not attack your organs, but it can be just as crippling to your joints. I'm sorry to hear you are having any joint deformity.
So far, all my joint deformities, in the first joint of my fingers (closest to the nail) stopped hurting once the swelling stopped. Hopefully yours will too. I don't find any evidence that the deformity ever goes away.
Luvs
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Thanks for all the good info, luvs. Very much appreciated. I have family and friends who I hope will take a look at this.
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