Yesterday I attempted to work out a little bit (really it was just a little bit)and today I am feeling just horrible. After about a minute for any aerobic exerise my muscles just gave out (I almost fell off one of the machines ).
The next few days I've felt especially tired and exhausted (mentally and physically) and have been spending a lot of time in the horizontal position. My question is, even those this post-exertional pain and tiredness is very typical of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, I haven't seen it specifically linked to any coinfection? Does anyone know which coinfection is believed to cause this effect?
Also do all of you get this kind of post-exertion fatigue? (there really should be a better word than fatigue, cause it feels like your cells are starving, but alas). If you do, or if you don't, could you be kind enough to post that information along with the infections you are known, or believed, to have. Maybe we can figure out which infection is most likely the cause just based on that.
Thanks Everyone!
P.S. For those of you who know a bit about the body's biochemistry you know that first the muscles use things like sugers and complex sugers to produce energy but this source is extremely quickly burnt up and then the body switchs to burning fats (this is the part that requires 02). However for me it felt like I had an initial "burst" and then my muscles quickly became exhausted, like they couldn't use oxidative metabolism... It felt though my blood flow was too low. I was also wondering if anyone else has had that same, or a smiliar, situtation?
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
I have at one point had lyme, babesia, and bartonella, but it is hard to know which ones are active now! Probably all three.
I get what you are talking about too. I am not as sick as I used to be, but now if I go exercise, like, take a walk in the park, the next day, I can't do anything.....not just physically, but I am dazed the next day and can't use my brain.
It is hard, because, I feel like for most people walking briskly is good, moves the body's juices....but for me, sometimes I think---wow, is this even good? I do better if I maybe go grocery shopping, at least get out, but anything that breaks a mild sweat will hurt me for the next day. Hate it!
Posted by sunnyslumber (Member # 7065) on :
Thanks Hoosiers. I can't believe there is only one person who has something to say on this topic. Please reply even it is in the negative.
john
Posted by aiden424 (Member # 7633) on :
I get really sick from exercise too. Have for the last 22 years. I would consider myself in remission if I could tolerate any exercise.
Kathy
Posted by Peck (Member # 14526) on :
Exhaustion is only part of it. The pain I have all over is horrible. Even doing the littlest things.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Sadly, in general, if one has an infection, aerobic exercise is contraindicated due to potentially damaging effects.
With apologies for the volume of stuff, I'll share some of the articles I've studied about this matter.
[ Peck, I think the pain from it has to do with toxins - too much trying to filter through - and from other stuff ( ATP, mitochrondia) as detailed in some of the articles I'll post below. ]
Still, it must be very frustrating to have a one-minute limit and with such reactions.
sunnyslumber - When walking, weigh-lifting, Tai Chi . . . do you have the same reactions? Some of us still have the same reaction to errands or a shower, even.
It may be hard to get an exact physiologic explanation for what is happening or what infection may be underlying this particular part, but it also may have to do with ATP and mitochrondrial function around infection or as damage from such.
My first thought is that the adrenals are overworked. Adrenals - and the entire HPA axis - take a huge hit from infections. It takes a while for them to come around. They cannot be pushed without consequence, sometimes quite serious "feedback" that they've been pushed too far.
See the writings of Arnold Peckerman, MD, and also of Sarah Myhill, MD (in the UK). A search for "exercise intolerance" will bring up many article that will be of help.
Paul Cheney, MD, with Peckerman, has done a lot on the cardiac stuff. [ I'm editing this part in now and it won't quite fit, so I'll add to the end of my set of posts. ]
Also, s search for [ "HPA axis" "CFIDS Association" ] should bring up some good articles that offer excellent explanations.
If you have that kind of reaction, stop. Be kind to your body as you explore the next step.
Have you been dx with lyme, TBD ?
Cpn, HHVB-6 are others you might consider, but it sounds like you know that.
Still, there is so much we don't know - so much we will never know. So, in the meantime, I hope your body is clear in messages in advance. That sure would be nice, eh?
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[ 24. June 2008, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Here's a nine-page article with tremendous detail to understanding physiological aspects of exercise intolerance or regaining ground after illness - with great information on what can help.
Reading about ATP and mitochrondia was very helpful to making sure my nutritional support doesn't miss something essential.
While this is not specifically about lyme, much of the research is still quite applicable.
``The activity should be restorative, or analeptic, serving to relieve, not exacerbate, symptoms.
Redefining exercise in this way acknowledges that a cookie-cutter approach to exercise therapy for CFIDS will not work because one size does not fit all.
To be successful, any exercise program should be tailored to match the individual patient's functionality and symptom fluctuations.''
CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME AND THE EXERCISE CONUNDRUM
by Lucinda Bateman, MD
08-28-2007
Excerpt:
Patients with CFS who are unable to remain active become deconditioned, but their ability to tolerate exercise stress and raise the threshold may be impaired compared to normal individuals.
Indeed, recent studies published by the CDC Computational Challenge teams suggest that CFS patients may have more difficulty than others recovering from common physical stressors, as measured by increased allostatic load (Maloney).
It is possible that some stressors leave a mark or permanent injury in patients with CFS, as if their normal stress response and recovery mechanisms are dysregulated or chronically depleted.
In addition to physical deconditioning, there are many partially understood aspects of CFS, well established in the literature, that might contribute to an exercise threshold, the exceeding of which could result in pathologic injury. This might include:
* Defects of oxidative metabolism,
* Dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system and HPA-axis (CRH, cortisol and aldosterone),
* Presence of chronic or latent reactivating infection,
* Dysregulated immune or inflammatory systems (cytokine production, natural killer cell function, complement activation)
* And other yet-to-be clarified processes.
It is not difficult to imagine an exercise or activity threshold in someone with CFS after which the body experiences physiologic injury that contributes to post-exertional malaise.
It is not necessary to understand this before we respect it.
- full article at link
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Posted by Angelica (Member # 15601) on :
If I end up doing too much one day like driving or even grocery shopping and or running errands the next day I am often exhausted.
Sometimes when I get depleted the next day I get a headache and I have to really lay low.
I would like to know if it is babs bart or LD causing my fatigue too.
[ 25. June 2008, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Angelica ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I don't know about whether it is babesia or lyme - or other specific infection but ANY infection can be damaging.
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[Post-polio expert] Dr. [Richard] Bruno points out that physical over-activity is the biggest cause of post-polio symptoms. [3]
(See Dr. Bruno's "Fainting and Fatigue" in the Spring 1996 CFIDS Chronicle, page 37.)
EXCERPT:
" . . . when mice infected with Coxsackie B3 were forced to swim in a warm pool, the virulence of the virus was drastically augmented.
In fact, viral replication was augmented 530 times. This did horrendous things to the animals' hearts.
We all know that to play squash with the flu can lead to heart attacks. Much the same danger can be courted by undertaking hard exercise with M.E. . . . "
From: Post-Polio and Post-M.E. - New book furthers polio hypothesis - by Jane Colby
LYME REHAB -- PHYSICAL THERAPY PRESCRIPTION NAME ___________________________________________________________ D.O.B. _____________________________ DATE ________________________
Please enroll this patient in a program of therapy to rehabilitate him/her from the effects of Lyme Disease. If necessary, begin with classic physical therapy, then progress when appropriate to a whole body conditioning program.
Such therapy must be graded, carefully individualized, and be performed on a one-on-one basis, at least initially, to ensure the maximal amount of supervision and guidance.
THERAPEUTIC GOALS (to be achieved in order as the patient's ability allows): Physical therapy (if needed):
1. Relieve pain and muscle spasms utilizing multiple modalities as available and as indicated: massage, heat, ultrasound,TENS, "micro amp", etc
2. Increase mobility while protecting damaged and weakened joints, tendons, and ligaments, to increase range of motion and relieve stiffness.
3. The role of physical therapy is to prepare for the required, preferably gymbased, exercise program outlined below. EXERCISE Begin with a private trainer for careful direction and education.
PATIENT EDUCATION AND MANAGEMENT (to be done during the initial one-on-one sessions and reinforced at all visits thereafter):
1. Instruct patients on correct exercise technique, including warm-up, breathing, joint protection, proper body positioning during the exercise, and how to cool-down and stretch afterwards.
2. Please work one muscle group at a time and perform extensive and extended stretching to each muscle group immediately after each one is exercised, before moving onto the next muscle group.
3. A careful interview should be performed at the start of each session to make apparent effects, both good and bad, from the prior visit's therapy, and adjust therapy accordingly.
PROGRAM
1. Aerobic exercises are NOT allowed, not even low impact variety, until your stamina improves.
2. Conditioning: Follow a "Body Sculpting" program-This consists of light calisthenics and weight lifting, using very low resistance(small weights) and many repetitions., and must involve the whole-body. This can be accomplished in exercise classes, with exercise machines, or carefully with free weights.
3. Each session should last one hour. If the patient is unable to continue for the whole hour, then modify the program to decrease the intensity to allow him/her to do so.
4. Exercise no more than every other day.
You may need to start by exercise every 4th or 5th day initially, and as your abilities improve, work out more often, but NEVER two days in a row.
The days you do not exercise should be spent resting.
5. This whole-body program is required to achieve wellness. Simply placing the patient on a treadmill or an exercise bike is not acceptable (except briefly as a warm-up), nor is a simple walking program.
=============
Posted by InADaze (Member # 7711) on :
I understand your fatigue. At some points, even taking a shower makes me need a nap, and can wear me out for days later. Good thing my husband is tolerant!
I've tested positive for Lyme, Mycoplasma, and Erlichia. A few of my doctors suspected Babesia as well, even though I've never tested positive (night sweats).
My husband is just positive for Lyme, and he does not have the same dramatic fatigue after exertion.
I finally bought a pedal exerciser to try to do SOME exercise. I can manage about 5 minutes at the lowest resistance setting before I need a rest. Since I'm sitting in a chair while using it, it's much less strenuous than other activities.
I wish you luck getting over your exhaustion. That's one of my top symptoms (besides dizziness, insomnia, headache, and GI problems) and a major reason I am still on disability.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I offer this as a reason, one explanation, for caution - and other information above can explain how to help work through this over time, and with treatment.
-----------------------------------------------
In the book, The Clinical and Scientific Basis of Myalgic Encephalomyeltis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
authors: Byron M. Hyde, M.D., Jay Goldstein, M.D. and Paul Levine, M.D.
The Nightingale Research Foundation reprinted p. vii which shows three sets of SPECT scans. (1993, I think.)
Taken in resting, post-exercise and 24 hours post-exercise, the images show an immediate post-exercise effect with perfusion and
``illustrate the severely decreased brain perfusion of the same patient 24 hours after the brain has been stressed by physical exercise."
This is a most remarkable piece of paper. You can see the marked impact upon the brain in the nine photos from the SPECT.
I can't find a copy of the page on the web, but you could request a copy from the Nightingale Research Foundation at
Dr. Goldstein, Addendum I, shows common stress pathways, and might also be available upon request.
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I do experience the same problems - that's why I've done so much searching to understand it.
there is one piece of exercise equipment that I can do - if slowly and just in short snippets of time.
It's similar to the GAZELLE - but it's a different mfr. - recently I searched and it's no longer made.
I felt the GAZELLE was not as sturdy as I would have liked but there may be a new model. I know www.hsn.com sells it from time to time.
I get a slight bit dizzy, but my model it has a front bar and wide foot pads. I can also position it right in front of my bed and plop back onto the bed if I need to. I've not had to do that for a while, though.
Of all the symptoms and manifestations of this complex set of infections, the "not being able to keep up" and the "not being able to move like the wind" has been the hardest to handle, emotionally and in respect to how others see me (as a wimp).
We have miles to go in understanding of all the processes involved. I just hope that we all can be "running like the wind" again someday. In the meantime, may be we happy with Tai Chi or other more measured methods.
I look forward to hearing from other regarding what has helped them. But, ultimately, of top importance, is the thorough treatment of toxic infection - however one addresses that.
------
Along the way: d-Ribose? That holds MUCH promise.
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I will try to have this be my last post (key word: try). Sorry for highjacking. I do hope some of this helps.
---------------------------------------------
While some (many?) cases of CFS might be undiagnosed lyme, this information may be helpful to patients across the board. We also have to remember that other undetected infections can play a part.
Cardiac Insufficiency Hypothesis - article and many links, including to: Pittler MH, Schmidt K, Ernst E., Hawthorn extract for treating chronic heart failure: meta-analysis of randomized trials. Am J Med. 2003 Jun 1;114(8):665-74. [PDF Format]
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New Research on Cardiac Insufficiency
several articles
There is new research from a New Jersey team, authored by Doctors Arnold Peckerman, Benjamin Natelson et al., which found left-ventricular dysfunction following exertion and orthostatic stress in patients with myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome.
. . . In an NIH-funded study on impedance cardiography also linked below, Peckerman and Natelson found that low cardiac output correlated with symptom severity in ME/CFS.
Dr. A. Martin Lerner . . . Viral infection persists in the heart, causing left-ventricular dysfunction, producing exercise intolerance. Exercise, in turn, worsens the cardiac dysfunction. . . .
More recently, physicist, physician, long-time ME/CFS researcher and clinician, and heart-transplant recipient Paul Cheney, M.D., Ph.D., has offered an alternative theory that a subset of ME/CFS patients suffer from (a)
a diastolic cardiomyopathy, a problem with ventricular filling resulting from mitochondrial dysfunction and low ATP energy in the heart.
Video: A three-hour talk by Dr. Cheney on diastolic cardiomyopathy and ME/CFS.
CFS and Diastolic Cardiomyopathy - Paul Cheney, M.D., Ph.D.
========
Again, all this is not to scare or sadden, but help us work through it to happier times and, in the meantime, be happier with ourselves no matter how much energy we can muster.
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[ 24. June 2008, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by aiden424 (Member # 7633) on :
The exhaustion I get after exercise starts with intense head pressure. Then I get a stiffer neck, sore throat, foggier head, dizzy, feel like passing out, really weak, upset stomach, and feel like someone beat the crap out of me I hurt so bad. Pretty much like i'm dying.
I've had this since I got sick. I don't know if this is Lyme or something else.
Kathy
Posted by sunnyslumber (Member # 7065) on :
Thank-you all for helping make this such a good thread! Believe me, I can empathize completely with these experiences!(though I should be able since I was the one who started this thread )
I still am unsure if there is one infection in particular that causes these unique aftereffects or if it is several... Keebler thanks for all the data you've given us, to read it all together allows it to make that more sense, at least for me.
john duncan
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
I have the same problem with exercise or doing anything that is physically taxing.
I have lyme, babesia and bartonella. Also possibly mycoplasma. I may have active HHV-6 since I have very high IgG titers. I really don't know which one of these infecitons would be the cause. I think Keebler is on the right track though, probably any infection could be a problem.
I have orthostatic intolerance (hard to be in the upright position) due to a number of abnormalities including orthostatic hypotension of the delayed type. I don't think orthostatic intolerance is unusual in lyme patients.
Here are a few things that might be a clue that you have this problem. Does your pulse seem too high at times, especially in warmer temperatures? Do your legs or arms turn purplish or mottled looking? Do you feel dizzy when standing? Do you feel like you might faint when you stand up too quickly? Does the heat make you feel sick or exacerbate your symptoms? If these seem familiar to you, consider a tilt table test to determine if you have problems with orthostasis.
I think that de-conditioning does play a role if one has been sick for a long time and/or in those with orthostatic intolerance.
For those returning to a more active life after being deconditioned, a very slow buildup would be helpful.
Terry I'm not a doctor
Posted by cactus (Member # 7347) on :
This is an interesting post. I too have exhaustion and exacerbated symptoms in the days after exercising.
Keebler, one of your links may have addressed this already (my eyes are not cooperating with reading long articles today), so excuse me if I'm repeating something you've said already.
If not, maybe you can help me with corroborating this, as I don't have the energy to research at the moment.
I heard recently that there is evidence that when we exercise it causes a reduction (die off) of our T-cells, and that any infection's symptoms will then increase for a few days.
Similar to athletes who participate in big events and get sick in the following days with colds, etc - the idea is that the T-cells are lower so the chances of fighting infection are lower at that point.
This die off of T cells then triggers regeneration of new T-cells, which may be better able to fight TBDs since they are not yet infected.
So exercise could be a way to ultimately strengthen our immune system, despite the initial exacerbation of symptoms.
This was very interesting to me, since exercise knocks me flat for days.
What do you think?
Posted by Nobody (Member # 16041) on :
I tend to feel awful a day or two after moderate to intense exercise.
If I really tire myself out, I will feel like I am vibrating and possibly get an eye twitch from it.
Neuro flareup after exercise, but I don't know why.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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catcus - I read in a recent post about the T-cell thing - I don't recall and am too dizzy today to hunt that down.
you asked - Quote: "So exercise could be a way to ultimately strengthen our immune system, despite the initial exacerbation of symptoms. . . ." end quote.
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Exercise can be defined in many ways.
We have to be careful of theories that apply to normal, healthy individuals. Sad as it is, lyme + co. can change many things about how one's immune system responds.
And . . . there have been some with early lyme to see improvement with activity - not necessarily aerobic, but other exercises of a less strenuous nature. (Dr. B. has told of that, but I can't find the quote right now.)
It's very complex and no one knows for sure - for everyone - every time - no matter what. For matters of this thread, the focus is about those with major set-backs after endurance.
We have to learn to read our bodies - and then to listen. Personally, I think the fatigue thing is far worse than all the other symptoms. I would not mind feeling so ill, if I could just push through and be around others. I did that for years.
But, back to the basic question at hand: can't we just speed this up by speeding ourselves up?
From all the articles that I posted above, research cautions that if some of those conditions are present, trying to push through can be dangerous, even fatal.
I tried early on in this struggle to run, swim, etc. etc. I would fall down and get up and keep going. I realize I was very angry at my body and, for me, then, pushing was punishing.
I was also running for the dream of a slimmer body (hah!) . . . well, I wound up flat on my back for full year (and that was over a dozen years ago).
Only a few months ago, did tests show that I carry a couple strains of coxackie virus and HHV-6 - and Cpn - all in addition to the lyme trio that I've know about for 11 years. (Don't freak out - I don't know where I stand with lyme now, but I did not get treatment of any kind for several years after the positive tests. Early treatment has excellent results. )
Now, back to viruses, carrying it is not the same as an active infection, but when did that happen? Was it when I just would not slow down?
And, Nicolson's latest article, in line with some other authors, suggests that such infections can still pose problems long after the initial hit.
As you'll recall from the Bruno quote above, exercising with a virus can be deadly - or damage the heart.
My body was TRYING - trying to tell me something. But, no, I so wanted to deny that I was a wimp that I just pushed on. (Well, I went to MANY doctors, all who said I was fine. So, I thought, "well, I just have to try harder.")
If we feel horrible and our body has horrible reactions to something, we should not engage in such activity that makes us worse or that can cause harm - especially when infections are present.
There are plenty of ways to move safety - even when ill. Qi Gong strengthens the immune system and it does not require the body to push to dangerous levels. Walking, too.
We each have to determine our own safety level, but we have to get over the idea that we have to run the 5K in order to push through. Easy does it.
There is always a risk when you try to fool mother nature. Our bodies are way smarter than we think. Cheney's lecture points that out about why the fatigue may actually be protecting the heart.
I'm going on too long here and, sure I'd like to keep up with others, too. But I have just had to come to terms with that.
I also think that our society has become far too obsessed with fitness as an overly enhanced, unreachable image. It's nearly become a bullying technique of those making sports wear, equipment and drinks. My grandparents were very healthy and led active lives - without a treadmill.
We don't have to buy the snazzy image - we can create our own.
We can become stronger without all the flash. Just by living, we will be moving, doing, enjoying and . . . the result will be a stronger immune system from being able to have normal relationships and engage in normal activity - at our own pace and with wisdom and respect to what's going on inside of us.
We don't know all we need to about various infections. Until we do, I have learned that I need to tread lightly.
And, with all that said, I'll still continue to study to find out how to move out of this place, though.
And, yes, movement - enjoyment - even listening to music - can help the immune system. We still have many avenues open to us as we move through this process and, simply, do the best we can. That is an achievement in and of itself. That is something to be proud of in the fact of all this.
I like the advice in an essay by Jane Bryant Quinn to a graduating class several years ago: show up. By simply "showing up" we continue to stand up to all this and we hold our ground.
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[ 26. June 2008, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I made reference to this article in my previous post and thought I had included it way above, but did not.
Nicolson explains a lot about chronic borrelia, and Cpn (chlamydia pneumonia), etc. - and, as always, not to spread doom and gloom, but information so that prevention and knowledge lead to power and health.
May 2008 Volume 39 Number 5 LABMEDICINE www.labmedicine.com - American Society for Clinical Pathology
Chronic Bacterial and Viral Infections in Neurodegenerative and Neurobehavioral Diseases - by Garth Nicolson, Ph.D.
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Posted by cactus (Member # 7347) on :
This is a good, timely thread. Thanks for your thoughts on this, Keebler - and for the articles and research. That's a lot of work when you're not having the best day - I hope tomorrow will be a better one for you.
I've been on the fence about exercising because it makes me feel much worse and lands me in bed for days.
None of us are alone in that.
My thinking was that landing in bed rendered me less active than before exercising, so unless doing something very mild, I abstained.
Many days taking a shower wears me out. It used to take me 3 days to recover from the trip to the LLMD.
This week there was a lecture that my partner attended - and the presenter put forth the concept I attempted to explain above (regarding T-cells).
The idea was not to push oneself at all, but only to do what's comfortable, then take as many days as necessary to recover, then work toward doing only what's comfortable again to strenthen the immune system.
It's an interesting concept. I'm sure that if it is important to Lyme treatment we will hear more about it.
In the meantime, I was not at all suggesting that anyone push themselves. It's important that we each listen to our bodies, we have enough to deal with as it is, without over-doing anything.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Cactus, thanks for your note.
Hey, can your partner give you something more to go on about that lecture . . . name, links, research citations, quotes, etc.
It would be interesting to see what they have to say, especially if it was not a boot-camp sort of idea.
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Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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While this book focuses on weight gain, it is a valuable resource for learning how to proceed safely if infections are involved.
There are also other researchers looking at bacteria, viruses and even gut flora as being connected to weight gain / obesity - and as we learn more about inflammation, that will help us better understand - and treat - swelling of various types.
The Potbelly Syndrome: How Common Germs Cause Obesity, Diabetes, And Heart Disease (Paperback) - 2005
by Russell Farris (Author), Per Marin (Author)
8 customer reviews and you can look inside the book
about $13.00 -
Editorial Reviews
Product Description
Potbelly syndrome (PBS) is a metabolic disorder that affects about one-third of the adults in industrialized countries. Its most important symptoms are abdominal obesity, high blood pressure, and type 2 diabetes.
Contrary to popular belief,these conditions are caused by chronic infections, not by bad habits. (Keebler's note: well, unless one DOES have bad habits.)
PBS is initiated by a small, long-term excess of the stress hormone cortisol.
The extra cortisol stimulates our appetite and slows down our metabolism. It makes fat accumulate in places where it isn't wanted or needed. Most of the fat settles around our waists, but some of it settles in our liver and muscles.
Liver and muscle cells aren't supposed to store fat, and the fat prevents them from working correctly.
As a result, we feel tired and hungry much of the time. As our potbellies grow and our PBS gets worse, our blood pressure, cholesterol, insulin, and blood sugar levels rise.
Most of the excess cortisol is produced in response to mild, chronic infections. Some of the germs that cause PBS also produce sores in our arteries. When these sores are large enough, they can block arteries and cause heart attacks.
"The Potbelly Syndrome" explains how to diagnose and treat some of the germs that cause PBS and heart disease.
If you've done everything you were supposed to do and still gained weight, became diabetic, or had a heart attack,or if you are a medical professional who suspects that there are serious gaps in the current understanding of obesity, disbetes, and heart disease, "The Potbelly Syndrome" will provide you with the answers you need to bring about better health.
About the Author
Russell Farris is a retired artificial-intelligence researcher who spent most of his life solving problems for the U.S.
Navy. After suffering a heart attack in 1998, he began to apply his problem-solving skills to the study of heart disease and related illnesses.
Per Marin, M.D., Ph.,is a distinguished scientist, physician, and clinical teacher from Sweden. He has been writing about obesity since 1985, and many of his eighty-two publications deal with the effects of cortisol on weight and health.
==
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Presuming that exercise intolerance is 100% due to lyme of coinfections seems a bit narrow minded in my opinion. I know because I am intimately familiar with this problem.
Have you explored metabolic and mitochondrial myopathies with a quality neuromuscular physician? Those cause the EXACT same problems you described.
I am not making any reference to whether or not have you have other issues related to TBIs. I am just trying to help.
It seems like 90% of the posts on this board I read assume TBIs are the cause of nearly every symptom.
All that aside, most people, including myself, have gone through so many tests. It might be true! Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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The article above by Arnold Peckerman - and the video by Cheney discuss the mitochodria . . . and for those who want to search further, the CFIDS Association's web site will link to more research on mitochondria.
the library at www.vrp.com should have some articles on it, too.
I agree, we can't assume it's even this or that. It's very involved.
And we learn more everyday.
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Posted by sunnyslumber (Member # 7065) on :
Thanks to Hoosiers51, Kathy, Peck, Angelica, InADaze, TerryK, cactus, Nobody & Seekhelp, and of course Keebler, for making this such an interesting thread.
At the risk of resurrecting a dead thread, I would still like to know what percent of chronic lymes experience post-exertional exhaustion? Even if it is not related to any one disease. Maybe one of the senior members knows if this website is able to support polls?
john
Posted by Nobody (Member # 16041) on :
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: Presuming that exercise intolerance is 100% due to lyme of coinfections seems a bit narrow minded in my opinion. I know because I am intimately familiar with this problem.
Have you explored metabolic and mitochondrial myopathies with a quality neuromuscular physician? Those cause the EXACT same problems you described.
I am not making any reference to whether or not have you have other issues related to TBIs. I am just trying to help.
It seems like 90% of the posts on this board I read assume TBIs are the cause of nearly every symptom.
All that aside, most people, including myself, have gone through so many tests. It might be true!
I've been suspecting I have some sort of metabolic problem or myopathy for some time, but I don't know where to find a good doctor who can test me for this stuff. Any ideas where I can start my search? Will try googling "neuromuscular physician" to start.
Thanks.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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The mitochondria is where you might start looking. They are the power house providing energy inside each of our cells.
With any chroninc infection, the mitochrondria take a direct hit.
Making these guys happy will make us happy. Mitochrondrial dysfunction is a huge study in and of itself. While antioxidants are essential, the repair of mitochondria can be overlooked in treatment of chronic infection.
Stem Cell Enhancement: Fucoidan's Novel Role in Tissue Repair and Heart Health - By Chris D. Meletis, ND
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The controversial discussions about stem cells that we hear in the news often revolve around the potential ability of embryonic stem cells to treat . . . .
Yet, adult stem cells already within our bodies play an equally important role in health regardless whether we are healthy or suffering from any of a number of health conditions.
Stem cells are the tool repair kits of the human body. They initiate true cellular healing of aging tissues and organs as well as reinvigorate tissues damaged by disease, toxins or trauma.
Found in all multi-cellular organisms, stem cells renew themselves through mitotic cell division and can differentiate into a diverse range of specialized cell types.
In the 1960s, Canadian scientists Ernest A. McCulloch and James E. Till were the first to extensively research these remarkable cells.1-2
. . .
Fucoidan--a sulfated polysaccharide extracted from brown seaweed--is now thought to have a role to play in this stem-cell-induced repair of cardiovascular damage. Studies have begun to emerge indicating fucoidan might influence the mobilization of endothelial progenitor cells and their incorporation in ischemic tissue.3
Studies have shown that treatment with the sulfated polysaccharide fucoidan or the structurally similar dextran sulfate increases circulating mature white blood cells and progenitor/stem cells in mice and nonhuman primates.
Recent studies suggest that fucoidan may work by enhancing the activity of stromal-derived factor 1 (SDF-1), which plays a critical role at several steps of progenitor cell mobilization.
. . .
In another study, scientists used a rat model of atherosclerosis to test the effects of fucoidan on lesions on the inner lining of the arteries called the intima.
. . .
Conclusion
Enhancing the activity of adult stem cells clearly is crucial to the proper functioning of the cardiovascular system. Unless these cells are functioning effectively, the body is unable to properly repair itself after injury.
Fucoidan is a novel, marine-derived natural substance well researched for its immune enhancing abilities and now known to help mobilize stem cells, thereby enhancing cardiovascular and overall health.
- Full article and 15 citations at link
� 2008 Vitamin Research Products
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And a caution if you try this kind of seaweed: seaweed naturally contains MSG - in the more natural state, of course, it's better than the processed stuff. Still, it can be stimulating and excite the NMDA transmitters - and that might be too much excitement for some of us.
I've been wondering about this for a while but have not yet given it a try. It might be that it would not be overly stimulating - as one article I read elsewhere states. Still, I would start very low and slow and, of course, with a clean source.
I just stumbled upon this today searching for mitochondria. This particular type of seaweed has shown promise in helping burn the right kind of adipose tissue (which is what got me reading about it a while back).
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Edited to add: I had printed out the enitre article and was just reading it. Hmmmm. Some good stuff here.
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[ 19. July 2008, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Nobody,
One of the best doctors in the world to test for and diagnose Mitochondrial / Metabolic Myopathies is Dr. Bruce Cohen, M.D. of Cleveland Clinic. I mention his name because he is NOT a LLMD.
Therefore, I don't think name identity is an issue. He is well-known in this field. I speak from recent personal experience with this physician.
PM me if you need his number. Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
Interestingly, I went through a big neuromuscular work-up and I believe it's negative (not 100% done yet).
So, if I do have Lyme or coinfections, I'm strongly believing it causes post-exertion exercise problems.
I have dealth with EXACTLY what the original posted described for well over 10 years.
2-4 days after exercise, my life is terrible. Prior to this period, I NEVER experienced this phenonenon.
Posted by joysie (Member # 11063) on :
One of my first symptoms was extreme fatigue 10-12 hours after exercise (moderate hiking). The first time or so, it consisted of daytime sleep urgency-after a couple hours of sleep, I was tired but basically ok.
The last time, the episode lasted 3 days. I had joint and muscle pain, sore throat, felt like I could not swallow, headache, exhaustion, and definite brain fog.
I only tested positive for babesia, but have been treated for lyme and bartonella as well.In March of this year I was able to start slow walks again and build up from there. Due to a complaining liver, I have been off antibiotics since June 14. I have been walking vigorously and been doing about 10 reps running the bleachers at our local high school with no ill effects .I am hopeful this will continue. Kris
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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This thread may have some helpful sources concerning adrenal support:
Topic: Can anyone reccomend adrenal support supplements?
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Posted by Marz (Member # 3446) on :
Seekhelp, I was agreeing with all the people considering co's as the cause for this kind of fatigue until I read your posts.
My reason for believing it's co's is because when I got lyme in 1992 and after, I always felt better after exercise.
I thought I understood then, that it was because the borrelia can't stand oxygen and I was helping get rid of them through exercise.
I had a couple of relapses, and in 2006 got on antibiotics for 18 months.
I thought maybe this took care of the lyme and then possilbly babesia was able to come to the forefront and that's why I have low tolerance for exercise now..
I've tested low RBC. LLMD and PCP are not concerned about that because hemoglobin is normal. Could that be because babesia parasites are "eating" my red cells?
I just walked at a very slow pace 2 miles, and feel half dead.
I'm going to study your mitochondrial theory.
Thanks for the info.
Posted by shazdancer (Member # 1436) on :
Seekhelp, I also had noted the wiped out 2 days after thing. I have been treated for Lyme and babesiosis.
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