I was wondering if it is known exactly when and how spirochetes transform to CWD form. I've had Lyme for my whole life. Im having a harder time getting herxes now and am wondering if I have a big problem with CWD form bacteria. Does it make sense to say that the longer you have Lyme, the more CWD form bacteria you get? Or are there people that have had Lyme for just a year or two also having a problem with this form of the disease? Because i still have many symptoms and CWD form bacteria is my only explaination because supposedly the Cyst forms are symptom free...any good opinions about this?
[ 16. December 2008, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Thane ]
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Dear Thane,
Your best bet on this topic is to use the search function of Lymenet. There are now over 400,000 individual posts. Almost every topic has been discussed here more than once!! Many of your questions are already answered in earlier posts--including ones with photos!
Reading these may help you with your basic questions or give you more questions to ask that would lead to helpful answers.
Also, the "newbie" links at the top of this section have LOTS of data in them--have you read them?
Best,
Cass A
Posted by Thane (Member # 18480) on :
I'm trying to learn some more specifics of the
activity of L-form bacteria and it seems nobody
knows. I did do a search about it already and
couldn't find my answers. I'm trying to
determine why some people have lyme a long time
and don't develop L-form issues and others do.
What causes this? Is it due to antibiotic
therapy? Or is it just late stage Lyme? Or is
it more inclined to switch forms when other
pathogens are present? I guess this was a more
clear question then my first post.
Posted by nenet (Member # 13174) on :
Hi Thane,
I understand what you are asking but I am not sure the research community even has an answer for that right now. The pleomorphism of Lyme has not been understood completely, and is only relatvely recently being researched to any useful degree.
A very good research article came out recenty that you should read. I will post a link for you. I wish I could discuss this more but I am about to go lay down as I am in a bad spot at the moment.
Hopefully others will post with info for you. I too would be interested to learn more.
Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
Wow. That research suggests that there is no way to get cured. And that once your body has Borrelia there is basically no way to get rid of it.
Even exposing the bacteria to harmful agents for a week in a petrie dish did not kill them. They basically coiled up or accumulated into slime covered colonies and produced new spirochetes after the harmful agent was removed.
I'm thinking cyst-busters like Flagyl or Tindamax merely "explode" the spirochete and spread the fragments around. The fragments then travel around and form into new spirochetes.
[ 17. December 2008, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: yanivnaced ]
Posted by Thane (Member # 18480) on :
Thanks for your responses! I did read over that study a little but it is heavy reading for my lyme brain. Sounds like we do have our work cut out for us.
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Hi Thane, I can answer one small part of your question from personal experience.
My Lyme was diagnosed with a test that has now replaced with a newer one, but it was the very good Bowen QRiBb test, in which the patient is provided pictures of the organisms found in their blood under a special fluorescent stain. I had the test done twice, and both times, I had L-forms only, and plenty of them.
Due to severe antibiotic allergies, proven with skin tests, to all of the effective agents for Lyme, I've never had antibiotics at all. At the time of my first test, I'd had no Lyme treatment yet, but I had the highest level of L-forms it's possible to have on the test.
So, I would bet that cyst formation is not dependent upon antibiotics being used. Maybe my own immune system tried to fight them, and they morphed into the CWD form.
klutzo
Posted by billclo (Member # 12939) on :
quote:Originally posted by yanivnaced: Wow. That research suggests that there is no way to get cured. And that once your body has Borrelia there is basically no way to get rid of it.
Even exposing the bacteria to harmful agents for a week in a petrie dish did not kill them. They basically coiled up or accumulated into slime covered colonies and produced new spirochetes after the harmful agent was removed.
I'm thinking cyst-busters like Flagyl or Tindamax merely "explode" the spirochete and spread the fragments around. The fragments then travel around and form into new spirochetes.
a picture is a worth a thousand words
Posted by Thane (Member # 18480) on :
Klutzo, Very interesting post! I suspect that that may be what i'm dealing with. How are you treating the buggers now? Marshall Protocol?
To the others: Thanks for posting the links, i'm herxing pretty good at the moment and will have to wait to my brain returns before I can do much reading. Thane MN
Posted by yanivnaced (Member # 13212) on :
Tindamax & Flagyl are supposed to bust cysts. But is that 100% proven?
If it were true then those who treated all 3 forms of Lyme bacteria (intracellular, cell-wall-deficient, cyst form) should be cured.
Yet 99.999% of chronic (beyond acute) patients will relapse. I quote that number from a well known LLMD whose treated more than 11,000 cases.
I've read the studies about cyst busting drugs and the theory sounds great but the evidence is just not there with actual patients.
Posted by klutzo (Member # 5701) on :
Thane, You asked how I am treating now, since I can't take ABX.
I did almost 5 years of Samento, with Cumanda for a few months as well. Samento gave me endless herxes from hell. I now use only Epicor, an immune modulator which does not cause herxing. I am no longer willing to suffer.
I have so much organ damage that I have several things wrong with me now that will be fatal within a few years, if not sooner, so I no longer attempt treatment. I just work at symptom control, to the extent that is possible. I take 7 drugs and many supplements daily.
Good luck to you, klutzo
Posted by Thane (Member # 18480) on :
Klutzo, I'm really sorry to hear how things are going for you. This really is a terrible disease.
I want to thank you for sharing your experience and insight to the rest of us. I wish you the very best. Thane