I had this test in my doctors office. If you fail the test it is supposed to indicate neuro toxin problems
Posted by Nutmeg (Member # 7250) on :
Hi dmc,
I had an MD administer this test in the office quite a few years ago. It was before the lyme DX.
We were interested in neurotoxic effects of mercury and heavy metals and wondering if that's what was affecting my vision. This was before I had my amalgams replaced.
You can take the VCS test online. Last time I did it, it was only about $8.
My newer online scores have been way better than that first one in the MDs office.
I still have convergence insufficiency and some other visual issues that come and go, but vision is somewhat better most days.
Take care, Nutmeg
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I had this done both locally with specification from Dr. S and, again, at the office of Dr. S. Both of my tests were fine, so Dr. S. administered as different kind - and I flunked.
He said that the test can be helpful but it is not foolproof. I wonder if my having taken lots of antioxidants and liver support had a positive effect on my first two tests, skewing the results.
However, I'd never gotten treatment for lyme, babesia or HME (Human Monocytic Ehrlichia) and was very ill. Dr. S. said that I was about the 2nd most severely ill patient he'd ever seen.
So, take the test or not. You will still need to have serious attention to neurotoxin elimination whatever the results - and all through treatment. This does not necessarily have to be with cholestyramine (as there are many options to liver support) but many have found that to help.
And the results may not be something that can determine the presence of lyme - as in my case because I had positives for 3 of the top tick-borne infections (from Igenex) and clinical presentations as well (and history of tick attachments).
If the visual tests are off, you know for sure something is off. However, if the tests are fine and you are ill, that does not mean lyme is not there. As I mentioned, there are more advanced tests that Dr. S. uses in his office.
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Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Similar to so many other things that have to do with toxins, there is controversy about this test as it is used by Dr. S.
I don't think we will get much help with mainstream medicine and toxins until those who have research funds take an interest in the subject. Probably when some drug is found to clear toxins.
I took the test on-line immediately prior to starting lyme treatment and I passed.
I took the test again 2 years into treatment and despite heavy detox measures I failed. I was having a lot of trouble at the time with what we thought were toxins.
The results tend to verify my HLA test results that show that I have trouble getting rid of lyme toxins.
I have noticed that my vision gets very bad when hitting lyme heavily. Recently my vision improved a great deal when I muscle tested for what I needed to clear brain toxins and took wheat grass pills. I have no idea if it would help anyone else.
I think my IM abx was hitting the brain and I was experiencing die off that was affecting my vision and brain function. It was so bad I was having trouble reading my computer screen.
Terry
Posted by dmc (Member # 5102) on :
Thank you all,
Your experiences w/the test are interecting. Reminds me of the different experiences withe the CD57 test.
A marker for guidence depending on your bodies toxin load.
I may try the online test.
Posted by bettyg (Member # 6147) on :
dmc,
go to site, hold down CONTROL key and click the + on extreme right side by numbers .... you can ENLARGE this way
and also by using VIEW, EDIT, SIZE, LARGEST !!
works great for me using both! good luck
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
My doctor said it wasn't very accurate. He told me it wasn't worth doing. He did have alot of experience in this area.
The results are vague & the toxins we may have are innumerable...
I would just assume that we need to detox on an ongoing basis.
I'm not so sure this doctor who invented this is very reputable. I've heard mixed reports about him. Mold is dangerous but I don't know if I would go overboard about all of this.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Dr. S. is a reputable doctor but I suppose he is only as reputable as our LLMD's in that he is in territory that is not accepted by most allopathic doctors.
Granted, this is not mainstream science but Dr. S. has done some studies that you can find in pubmed.
The VCS test addresses more than just mold toxins, it also addresses borrelia toxins and other biotoxins. If you have a problem getting rid of borrelia toxins or mold toxins, I do not think you would be going overboard by getting treatment.
Dr. S. and others feel that if you have this problem and you don't treat it, you will not get completly well because you cannot get rid of the toxins which are a major source of symptoms. One doctor that I went to said that I would need to treat it for the rest of my life.
I wish I was one who did not have a problem with toxins but unfortunately it is very clear with treatment that I do. I personally think there are a lot of chronic lyme patients that have these types of problems.
I personally do not think I would be able to tolerate the heavy duty abx treatment that I've been on for 3 years if it weren't for some of the detox measures my LLMD and I have taken along the way which includes cholestyramine and actos - part of Dr. S's protocol.
Terry I'm not a doctor
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
It's not so much that he's not reputable but I've heard some people who went to see him say they were not happy with him as a doctor.
I tried some variants of his protocol (using Welchol instead of cholestyramine) & it didn't seem to do much for me. I'm not on a "traditional" abx treatment, though.
Seems there are other binders like chlorella, clay, psylium seeds, charcoal, zeolites that can work just as good as the drugs. I'm sure there are other binders out here that I haven't tried, too.
It's good to stay away from things that can cause toxins like mold. It's just that people have been living around mold in Europe for hundreds or thousands of years... So, I'm a little suspect that this is the main thing.
It's not a bad theory but it can be improved upon & not made into a big money making scheme. The toxins are real but I don't think you need to do a test or use expensive drugs. It's pretty evident if you experience the symptoms. I don't think you need the test.
This is just my opinion, though.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Sparkle, I understand your reasoning. It is a hassle, an added expense, a lot of work to learn about and treat etc. etc...
I've noticed that those who don't think they have the problem tend to feel that it isn't worth it for anyone. I think that is human nature.
I don't think everyone with chronic lyme has the problem but I think quite a few probably do and this may be why they are still sick after years of treatment or find it difficult to impossible to tolerate treatment.
Sparkle wrote: It's not so much that he's not reputable but I've heard some people who went to see him say they were not happy with him as a doctor.
You could say that about most LLMD's or doctor's in general. Not everyone is going to be happy with every doctor.
Sparkle wrote: I tried some variants of his protocol (using Welchol instead of cholestyramine) & it didn't seem to do much for me. I'm not on a "traditional" abx treatment, though.
Cholestyramine or welchol are just the first step. Some lyme patients can actually be sicker when they first take it. That is why actos is often given with it because it downregulates some of the hormones that can be stirred up with treatment. You need at least 3 doses a day to make much difference. Did you take at least that much?
Regardless of the type of treatment, if you are killing borrelia or exposed to mold and you have a problem with those particular toxins because your immune system does not make enough of the right kind of antibodies, you will likely need help with the toxins.
Not everyone has the problem so perhaps you are lucky and don't have the problem. I hope so.
Sparkle wrote: It's good to stay away from things that can cause toxins like mold. It's just that people have been living around mold in Europe for hundreds or thousands of years... So, I'm a little suspect that this is the main thing.
How do you know that people haven't been affected by this in Europe? Human illness and suffering is nothing new and has existed as long as humans have been on earth.
My sister worked in the same building for a decade + when they did some new construction that caused mold growth. She seems to have lyme but was doing pretty well until then. Once the mold appeared, she and some others started to get sick.
She had to take an early retirement because she was too sick to continue working. Other people that sat in the moldy area have gotten very sick too. Several cancers and other illnesses. More than you would expect in this small group of people sitting in the moldy area.
My sister started to recover her health once she got away from the mold. She has the same genetic test results as I do.
Others who sat near her and got sick do not want to hear that mold may have caused them to be sick. As far as they are concerned, it has nothing to do with their illness. They may not why they are sick, but they won't consider mold as a possibility.
Sparkle wrote: Seems there are other binders like chlorella, clay, psylium seeds, charcoal, zeolites that can work just as good as the drugs. I'm sure there are other binders out here that I haven't tried, too.
Yes, there are other binders. Not all of them bind biotoxins. I posted some info from one of the LLMD's about charcoal as far as binding biotoxins. As I recall, it was not as effective. I don't remember all the details but you can probably find it if you look in the archives.
Zeolites did nothing for me. I can't tolerate chlorella and I don't know if it binds the same kinds of toxins. It apparently does bind heavy metals.
Sparkle wrote: It's not a bad theory but it can be improved upon & not made into a big money making scheme.
hmmmm.... Not sure who you think is making it into a big money making scheme. What is your evidence that it is not helping anyone and that it is only a money making scheme??
My doctor has made nothing on this treatment. He bothers with it because he finds it is helpful to some people.
I'm just trying to share with others what I've learned in the hopes that they will find it useful.
Terry I'm not a doctor
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I went to see Dr X (not real name). Dr X worked for a well known "chain" that provides health care for people with fatigue related illnesses.
Dr X left the "chain". At this "chain" they were strong proponents of this method of treating toxins. Dr X felt that it was not specific enough to address the complex issues of neurotoxins or biotoxins. That's what he told me & I trust his opinion on it.
Environmental illness is not just an issue of Dr. S's discovery. It's been around for a while. He seems to have "popularized" it by writing books & having this website. I do think environmental toxins are a serious concern.
That's not my issue to dispute this. It's just that people now seem to freak out any time there's a spot of mold anywhere as if that's the source of every illness known to man. It may be a bit more complex than that.
It's not a bad thing to use Dr. S's method but there's more then one way to deal with it. If you got help from this method - that's great. I'm just going by my own experience & what my doctor told me.
I have seen several famous or well known doctors. Sometimes they are not always the best doctors & are caught up into their personal fame or image of themselves.
If you think Dr. S is a great doctor - that's good. It's just that I've heard otherwise from people who have seen him. So, I'm a bit suspect of this method as being the best for dealing with toxins.
I have never had the test but I also suspect that I am one of the "genetically disadvantaged". Just because there is a genetic test does not make it a permanent condition. There is a field of medicine called Epigenomics where you can change this predisposition.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
The Detoxx Book folks at Body Bio use butyrate for biotoxin illness and focus on cell wall repair.
I appreciate that we can have a civil discussion even though we don't totally agree.
Yes, epigenetics offers hope but it is a new field of study and has a long way to go.
Dealing with methylation cycle mutations is a way to turn genes off and on and I have had the testing for that and am treating. I have had quite a response in that I can sleep for hours straight now whereas before, my sleep was much more fragmented.
Similar to your belief Sparkle - I believe that there is more than one way to get the same result. I'm looking into everything I find that might be helpful in the area of detox because I seem to have considerable problems in that area.
The environmental doctors that I've seen (2), never even mentioned biotoxins. That was years ago though and I suppose it depends on the doc and their beliefs.
I have some of the biomarkers that Dr. S. tests for but I can't even find anyone to do all the testing. The one doctor that I could find who said he was an expert in treating via Dr. S's protocol only did the cholestyramine and actos which is a very small part of the whole protocol. I have highly elevated leptin and very low MSH but can't find any help to treat those problems.
I'll check out the F & F centers and see if they do the whole protocol or only the cholestyramine.
Sparkle - if it's not the F & F centers - could you let me know who you are talking about? thks
R62 - I think Dr. K's work is another piece of the puzzle. A few years ago my LLMD ran a test that showed my cells were full of debri.
My muscle tester said my cell walls were too permeable and after further research I found Dr. K's work. Can't find anyone in my area that does her IV treatment but I have been working on my cell walls for a few years via my herbalist.
I have used the pekana drainage remedies to help with debri in the cells and that made a big difference.
I used butyrate for about a year prior to getting lyme treatment. I was using it for healing my leaky gut. Maybe that's why my VCS test was negative the first time?
I'm glad you gave the link R62 - I had forgotten about that site so I think I'll look around again and maybe buy the book. Have you used any of their products or read the book?
Terry
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
TerryK - thanks for being civil! My info or opinion has nothing against you or your thoughts about this. I've been burned by quite a few expensive, famous doctors, so I have some skepticism.
I'm a bit concerned that standard testing is frequently wrong. If you are interested in non-traditional testing, you may want to consider an Asyra test or some similar method.
I'm kind of fed up with standard tests. I spent over $10,000 on them & found very little useful info. Many conditions can be sub-clinical & don't show up on the standard tests.
I never even had a "real" diagnosis for Lyme from a test. My diagnosis was clinical.
I decided to try homeopathy. I never would have thought that homeopathy might hold the answers but it seems to be the brightest hope for me right now. I tried all of the other routes & I didn't get very far with them.
Everyone is different. We each have to find what will help us as individuals.
It just seem logical that toxins would be hard for anybody to deal with. Some people may be more genetically predisposed towards them. I'm not sure if there's really any proven successful way to correct this.
I tried the Welchol for a while & I didn't see much of a difference - so, I figured that the rest of Dr. S's protocol wasn't going to be all that effective for me. I asked my doctor & he seemed to agree. So, I didn't explore it further.
I think my doctor may have been more specific but I don't remember how he worded it exactly. My paraphrasing of him is that it's not specific enough... I'm not a scientist so it's not something I've studied in detail.
I could put more time into it but I decided to try the Asyra & I went off in a whole other direction with it. I haven't been doing it long enough to know if it helps, yet. So, I don't want to recommend anything just yet.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I muscle test for several of the Body Bio products:
Phosphytidyl Choline (6 per day) Body bio 4:1 oil (4 tbs per day which I rarely get) (took out fish oil as per muscle testing then added in the Body Bio Kirunal a month later.. way lower dose than the two tbs of fish oil I was taking daily before) Kirunal (2-3 per day) Primrose oil (2 day) Body Bio B complex (2 day)
Obviously, contrary to popular lyme protocol... more omega 6 than 3. I remember when I tested for no fish oil and 6 primrose pills a day and thought the doc was crazy, then ran across this info and we tested for them next visit.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I have the "dreaded gene" and I am not sure knowing this has been helpful. It has been harmful in that I have felt trapped by my genetics. I also am pursuing epigenetic therapies.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I've read that even thoughts can change your DNA - so, I agree that we shouldn't feel trapped by genetic tests.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Lymestop, You only took in once a day (middle of night)? How much? That could be doable for me. Thanks...
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thank you, lymestop.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
When I was taking Welchol, my doctor told me to eat something with a healthy fat (like an egg or some cream cheese) about 35 minutes after taking it. This causes the bile to dump toxins so the Welchol could absorb them in the stomach.
I'm not sure anyone who does the chlorestramine does this. It may help?
Welchol did cause constipation for me. You really have to eat prunes or bran muffins with it. I used to make my own muffins to limit the sugar. The commercial ones are quite sweet.
It does get confusing when you are also taking abx...
When I was doing all of this for a while - I didn't really notice much of a change in my health. So, I discontinued it.
It may help others... But I can't say.
I don't know if I would go by what the military does to help people... They denied Gulf War Syndrome for a long time. They also experiment on people with lots of very toxic substances. There are many records of people being hurt by the military through experimental drugs, treatments, testing.
Giving people the VCS test may be sort of a "band-aide" to show they are offering some kind of help. Just my opinion... I'm not against anyone serving this country. It's just what the records show.
Posted by David A (Member # 3811) on :
I am skeptical of the VCS test as described for this purpose. Contrast sensitivity, or ultimately perception, as it is being measured and reported by the observer and not in the eye by instruments at the sensory level, is highly variable.
The minimum unit of detection of a change in lightness is referred as the JND (just noticable difference), and this JND is measured in Delta E units, or possibly Delta L (lightness) units.
All of our computer screens vary in their inherent contrast range, as well as possibly adjusted or calibrated contrast ranges. This affects the sensitivity of the VCS. Online tests have no idea about the performance range of your computer screen, and therefore cannot adjust accordingly. On one persons computer, a minimum change in lightness in the test, or smallest step, may equate to 0, 1, or even 6 JND's on different computer screens, for the same person. As well, surrounding visual space, ambient lighting, and the white point of the computer screens bulbs also can and should throw this test off. In the doctors office, very controlled conditions using an isolated viewing space with a carefully measured and calibrated light source should exist in order to take this test and measure contrast sensitivity properly. If these conditions are not strictly met, then expect variance above 1 or more delta E/L's.
I could go into great nerdy detail about this subject, but in short, what I'm trying to say is that contrast sensitivity is a very subtle thing to measure, and for sure, uncalibrated, consumer, computer screens are not the place to do it. And, even under a controlled, calibrated environment at the doctors office, contrast sensitivity values probably (I don't work in opthamology...) are of little value without a baseline, pre-lyme exam under similar conditions, similar age, and from multiple, averaged exams as CS can vary from day to day.
David
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
I agree on the testing Sparkle. I am interested in the Asyra testing so thanks for bringing that up. I use both conventional and muscle testing right now. Neither are perfect.
Good points you bring up about toxins and specific treatments. I've found that detox is a huge area because there are so many different types of toxins and detox mechanisms.
Sparkle - what is your doctor doing for you specifically for biotoxins?
R62 - thanks for the info on the bodybio products. I also don't think that just because we have the dreaded genes we are doomed to be sick forever. I understand why it is upsetting though.
I was shocked when I read in Mold Warriors that people with my HLA pattern don't get well. I think they don't get well because he doesn't have all the answers. Doesn't mean the answer isn't out there. Doesn't mean we can't get well, just means we have to look for more answers.
I think part of the answer lies in Dr. S's work but part may also involve the methylation work that Yasko has done and/or the work of Dr. P. K. that you posted on cell walls. It may involve a far infrared sauna and many other things. Heck even our mineral status can make a huge difference because production of some of the enzymes needed for detox require minerals.
One doctor asked me when I was going to stop looking for answers and just accept my condition. My response is NEVER!!!! At least not until I am well or dead. LOL We CAN get well. I've improved a lot and plan to keep improving.
Lymestop - My thought is that using VCS during treatment may help indicate when one needs to step up detox and/or slow down treatment so as not to overwhelm the system with toxins. It was an eye opener when my test was so much worse 2 years into treatment.
I don't think one dose will do much but it's probably better than nothing. I've read that one needs min of 3 doses of binder per day in order to make much difference.
Sparkle - Glad to get more verification on eating fat after taking cholestyramine. I've been eating a little fat 30-45 min after I take it since I started because I read the theory as you describe and it made sense to me. I recently looked for the paper that I read back then (written by a doctor) and couldn't find it. I searched through Dr. S's work but have never seen any mention of it though I still think it's a good idea.
I don't have a problem with constipation probably because I take magnesium. Vitamin C to bowel tolerance might help too.
Good discussion.
Terry
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Interesting points David. I'll preface my comments by saying that I am not an expert on this specific test and exactly what is being measured technically. I do know that a portion of the test is pattern recognition which would probably not be sensitive to lighting conditions.
It would no doubt be best to take the test under ideal circumstatnces but I don't think the test as it is used for this purpose is meant to be super precise. It is only used as a tool along with symptoms to see if neurotoxins might be causing a problem.
I was doing the full Cowden protocol for a while. It has herbal extracts for detox included. Burbur, Parsley & the trace minerals are good. There is also Zeolites in the protocol. The trace minerals probably include fulvic acid but I don't know for sure.
I started experimenting with the infrared light, too. So, I'm kind of off into my own tangent with all of this.
I'm looking into homeopathic remedies. I just started using one by a company called HEEL for lymphatic drainage. They also make some other products for kidney & liver drainage. I think I may have more issues with lymph - then liver & kidney but everyone is unique.
I believe Deseret Biologicals has some drainage remedies. There's also a company called InnoVita that has some interesting ideas about supplementation. You may need to order them through a practitioner.
Infrared or regular saunas/steam rooms are probably beneficial. Bathing in clay or epsom salt can be helpful. Some people feel it's important to have any mercury fillings removed & detox heavy metals. Cilantro & chlorella may be helpful there.
Charcoal has always been a big detoxer for me but you can't take it all of the time. You have to have some breaks since it can absorb beneficial things you may take, as well.
Psylium seed is good to absorb toxins from the intestines... I think there are others I've come across.
I really find exercise boring but getting the lymph moving is good. I have a rebounder & try to use it when I can. You can also do dry skin brushing for lymph.
Eating a good diet with lots of fruit & veggies is good, too.
So, there are alternatives to thinking you have some "dreaded gene"... That seems kind of counter-productive to me.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thanks Tracy for the perspective. I think that on my good days, then I become overwhelmed on other days... I am saving this thread!
Good info Sparkle, thank you. I ma doing many of these things. Cannot figure the source of the creepy feeling in my arms upper back and legs... driving me nuts. Getting IV mag..
What do you all think of ionic footbaths? My legs feel heavy.. sleeping with them elevated and dry brushing.. rebounding on an exercise ball. ???
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good luck
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