I took a long, hot bath yesterday evening, with a bit more than a cup of Epsom salts in it.
During the night, I started having pain in all of my bones. It had been a long time since I had ached like this.
Could that have been caused by the Epsom salts? Is their detoxifying power so strong that it can cause a die-off reaction?
Posted by ugagal (Member # 18471) on :
I have found the opposite to be true and that they help my body to relax. Maybe you are just sensitive to the salt or you used too much?? I guess it is just different for each person. Sorry you had such a painful experience.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Some people are sensitive/allergic to the sulfate, although I have not heard of sulfate allergy causing pain..more along the lines of headaches.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
You could have a methylation cycle problem like mine. It's called a CBS upregulation. Could also be a SUOX problem which is also methylation. Or some unlucky people have both.
Epsom salt is sulfur.
Read the part about CBS and SUOX if you are interested in this. http://tinyurl.com/cucbhk Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Yes I have the CBS upreg, which can result in a secondary SUOX problem. However, I treated my sulfur allergy with NAET successfully, take garlic, MSM, and epsom salt bath 3x/week now without problems.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Glad you do OK with the CBS upreg.
Just want to point out that in CBS upreg, allergy is NOT the issue and generally you must treat this or your methylation metabolites get dumped down the transulfuration pathway and produce more toxins and cause all kinds of problems because now those metabolites are not used for the things that they should be used for but instead are turned into toxins.
My understanding is that at this point in time, one must treat this ongoingly. I do not believe that NAET will fix this problem since it is not an allergy.
As far as I know, a CBS upregulation does not cause a problem with SUOX. However, if you have both a CBS upregulation AND a SUOX mutation, you will have more problems than someone who just has one of these issues.
If you think it does, I'd be interested to see your info on that.
Terry
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
From Yasko's forum:
"While the SUOX mutation status is rare, the potential for excess sulfite is also a consideration for those with CBS up regulations."
That's what I meant with secondary SUOX. It's not an actual mutation but as you said, due to toxins getting dumped down transsulfuration, excess sulfite is produced and can lead to an expressed allergy.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Thanks for clearing that up. So do I understand you correctly in that you were saying that the result of a CBS upregulation can be similar to the result of a SUOX mutation in that it can produce excess sulfites? I do agree with that.
Never heard that it can lead to an allergy. Can you post where you got that info please?
Bob - I think if you have one of the methylation cycle problems with sulfur, an epsom salt bath *could* cause more pain. I'm not sure about bone pain though. I associate bone pain with bartonella but it could be some other problem too. I will say that I get overall body burning and muscle burning with too much sulfur.
Terry
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Hi Terry,
Instead of "allergy," I meant sensitivity. For one, I know I have this because of energetic testing and sulfur-related headaches before/resolution after NAET treatment. I was having sensitivity to a number of supplements: glutathione, MSM, transfer factor, undenatured whey, methyl-but-not-hydroxy b12. This painted a pretty clear picture for me since NAET enabled me to take all these products (which were all needed by my body):
"Out of the B12 family, only methyl-B12 has the ability to activate the methionine/homocysteine biochemical pathway directly. It is this pathway that is responsible for the body's entire sulfur-based detoxification system." - http://www.tacanow.org/medical/methyl-b12-treatments.htm
"Sulfur sensitivity can occur when too much homocysteine is pushed through the trans-sulfuration pathway creating an abundance of sulfur compounds. This is particularly a problem if an enzyme called CBS is up-regulated creating an increased production of sulfur byproducts." - http://ezinearticles.com/?Autism-and-Sulfur-Sensitivity---Part-2&id=2087687
CBS+ -> too many sulfites floating around -> sulfites becomes neurotoxic & sensitivity-forming
Although there is such thing as inflammatory rxn to sulfites, i.e. asthma, this is far rarer than an expressed sensitivity which can also be inflammatory if not controlled.
So I think we're on the same page?
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Terry and M0Joey,
I'm a bit confused.
I never had Dr. Yasko's testing, but ...
I get worse from epsom salt baths too. Yet I LOVE MB-12. Nebulized glutathione does not bother me, and sometimes will help pull me through a herx, if only slightly. I eat tons and tons of broccoli and am fine with it (it's one of the few foods I don't react to).
So where does that leave someone like me on the sulfur scale?
How exacting is all of this?
Are there missing pieces here that I'm not seeing?
Thanks.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Agree with Joey. Many of us are sulphur sensitive and for those people epsom salt baths are the WRONG thing to do.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
it sounds like you don't have any issues with sulfur if you're not reacting to the other non-epsom products in a negative way. the epsom salts are magnesium+sulfate, which is the end byproduct of sulfur that does all the detoxifying. I think that's just your body telling you you have a lot to detox. I would continue taking the epsom and sulfur products, because if it you're not reactive it'll only help you.
That's just my opinion. Hopefully Terry can chime in on this
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Thanks, M0Joey.
It's very difficult to figure out what's happening at times.
Posted by luvs2ride (Member # 8090) on :
Bobidor
When I first became ill, I could not take an Epsom Salt bath without enormous joint pain following the bath.
It turns out I was extremely toxic and the baths were indeed pulling toxins around in my body that my detox system could not eliminate.
Today I can take as many epsom salt baths as I wish.
For 3 yrs, my doctors have been slowly detoxing me. It has been my salvation. I have been living normal for the last 2 yrs. Still sick, but getting well and living without pain or issue.
Please learn all you can about detox.
Until then, take plain hot baths. They worked for me.
Luvs
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Nomoremuscles - I'm not sure why you are having an issue with epsom salt baths. Glutathione is a strong detoxifier so I would think you would have a reaction to that too if toxins are the issue unless epsom salts are detoxifing something different than glutathione detoxifies.
I also don't seem to be bothered by glutathione or broccoli and yet I have a CBS upreg. If one does have a sulfur issue, I would think manifestation of symptoms would be dependent on the amount of sulfur and how much your body can process before you have a problem.
I'm not saying you do have a problem with sulfur but I wouldn't rule it out either.
If the bone pain is a one time event then it may not be a concern but if it's something that you have on a regular basis, I'd be concerned. I hope you mention your reaction to your doctor just in case they know why you had this reaction.
I wonder about electrolyte balance for you? You would have been flooding your body with magnesium which can maybe throw off other electrolytes? I don't know if that is a possibility, just wondering though.
Well, I wish we had some answers for you nomore. You are not the only one that has had problems with epsom salt baths and has asked about it here. Perhaps do a search here at lymenet to see if anyone has been able to come up with anything more helpful.
Joey - thanks for the explanation. Yes, we are on the same page. Heres the thing, if you have the CBS upreg then many of your methylation metabolites are being used to create toxins - sulfites AND ammonia.
Even if you fix the sensitivity to the toxin (sulfites) that still does not fix the fact that you are using your methylation metabolites to create sulfites and ammonia instead of doing what they are supposed to do.
Excess ammonia will use up BH4 and will cause other problems. Plus even if you are no longer sensitive to sulfites, they are still neurotoxins are they not?
My understanding is that your body can make it's own methylcobalamin from hydroxocobalamin or other forms of B12.
Terry I'm not a doctor
[ 03-24-2009, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
Thanks Terry,
Now you've got me wondering about the MB-12. I just assume it's still good for me because I responded so well and so quickly when I started it over a year and a half ago. But the nebulized glutathione definitely does not cause any problems. Hmmm. Maybe I should stop the MB-12 for a week or so and see what happens.
Yes, the electrolytes are a problem. My gut is so compromised, and I have so many food sensitivities (if it's edible, chances are I can't eat it), that I have no doubt my minerals are seriously deficient. Most supplements have been out of bounds for years -- including vits, mins, and any detox supps -- it's only recently that I've been able to start incorporating things one by one.
Bobidor, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I hope people were able to pick something up by this selfish diversion.
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Sorry this is not on the original subject but I wanted to bring this back up to recount what I was told today by an NAET practioner since it applies to what Joey said about his NAET treatments and the CBS upregulation.
10+ years ago I went through a series of NAET sessions. Back then, it was a fairly new field and I was unable to hold any of the work that they did thus my allergies just came right back.
Today I went to an NAET practioner on the advice of my LLMD to deal with a local reaction I'm having to ceftriaxone. She said things have really advanced with NAET in the last 10 years and that in some instances they can turn genes on and off. Not exactly sure whether that means that they can change a CBS upregulation but from what she said, it seems possible.
Joey - did you ask your NAET practioner to work on the CBS upregulation or did she work on individual supplements? Any tips or advice?
Thanks, Terry
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Hey Terry,
I still haven't gotten to the crux of this topic with my practitioner... too much other stuff to deal with, too little time--she's expensive!
However, I had headaches again this past week and suspected it might be the sulfites. She tested me energetically and said it was heavy metals, not sulfur-related. So far, I've only done 2 sulfur treatments with jaffor-mellor technique and script-reading over the past year, and I'm inclined to think the genes were shut off. The effects stayed for more than half a year after the 1st tx, so although I may have to get this treated every so often, that grace period is amenable to me.
Before treating sulfur, I also couldn't tolerate methyl b-12 but do fine now.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
My first impression is...the water was too hot -> increased inflammation.
A nice WARM, not hot, ES bath maybe more beneficial.
You could try:
Alternating warm and cold (in a shower) supposedly stimulates the immune system.
Example...those who sit in saunas and then go romp in the snow, then back to the sauna...
Posted by kelmo (Member # 8797) on :
Epsom salt baths increased my daughter's inflammation and her pain. She ballooned into a big red ball. She did an epsom salt bath every day for two months.
We had to join a spa so she could take six months to sweat the magnesium out of her body.
I often wonder if it would help now with back pain, but after that experience, she doesn't want to risk it.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
kelmo--based on that reaction, it absolutely sounds like a sulfer allergy or sensitivity. I wouldn't have her do another bath before treating somehow... testing the waters of inflammation is never a good idea
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
I love taking epsom salt baths. They usually make me feel slightly better, rested, etc. Usually help with my really bad neck pain.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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I ditto Marnie's reply - I first thought "Too hot!"
As for the alternating of hot and cold - I can't do that at all. I think it shocks my adrenals too much (and maybe even my heart) - or I just hate feeling cold. It's torture. However, whatever your comfort level, warm and cooler, might work.
Although it sure can feel great at the time, heat is usually never good for (most) lyme patients. Lower heat, even for saunas, works best.
Hope all the replies help.
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Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Whats the jaffor-mellor technique and script-reading? Thanks. Robin
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
My doc's version of NAET
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
OH.. Ok. Thank you. I was/am wondering if it is similar to neuromodulation therapy. The therapist I go to for that also does NAET and Bioset. She has scripts she uses. I googled and and could not find jaffor-mellor. Here is the nmt site:
It baffles my mind. My body temp has reset since working with her. Last session she worked on body fluid and finished the immune sessions. She has address toxin pathways, immune pathways, fluid and circulation, resistance to healing, some specific chemical/food pathways. ???
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
Thanks Joey - we'll see how it goes.
Interesting thought about heat. Would increased inflammation cause bone pain?