My doc wants me to do a month worth of hyperbaric due to my high infectious load. I did ozone therapy in germany after my bionic, and was wondering if the two produce similar results.
has anyone done both and seen a difference? From what I'm reading, the ozone seems to directly activate viral-killing via cytokine activation, whereas the hyperbaric just produces an inhospitable environment for anaerobic bugs.
I do have babesia, so I'm a bit conflicted about the hyperbaric. I heard it may make babs worse.
[ 04-22-2009, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: m0joey ]
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
If your going to do hyperbaric, you shouldn't just do it for a month and then stop. The trick with HBO is to keep it up, do 30 sessions, and then go every 4-6 weeks and do 5-10 more, and keep it going. You need to get lasting benefit, not just 30 sessions and then stop. I did 200 sessions total and I had babesia the whole time, and HBO did nothing but help everything! Ozone is ozone...never heard it doing anything near what HBO can do. Why can't you do them both? Good luck with this! Make sure you do the HBO correctly, with the Lyme protocol, and not in a mild, or multiplace chamber, you need a monoplace. Good luck! Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
thanks wildcondor
can you clarify on the lyme protocol & monoplace chamber?
Hesitant to spend much more because of my prior investment in bionic machine.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I agree with WildCondor that if someone does HBOT, it needs to be long-term. Everyone I know that did it and stopped reported no long-term benefit.
I think ozone works and can more readily be done at home though some people have home chambers.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
I can at least tell you this:
One of my LLMD's from long ago prescribed for me an oxygen tank with a mask, and I was supposed to breath it in everyday while doing mild walking in place on one of those step-aerobics things.
It made me feel TERRIBLE, and it didn't seem like a herx AT ALL. I could only handle it for like 3 or 4 days, and I said, no more, this is killing me.
I do have babesia, and it seems to be a pretty strong case. I didn't know that at the time.
The LLMD was hoping this would help kill the Lyme.
I am not saying this compares in any way to HBOT, but....because of that experience I don't necessarily believe in the healing power of oxygen, to put it lightly.
I have a "light box" that has an "ozone" feature on it. Breathing that in doesn't bother me at all. In fact, it makes me feel invigorated.
I don't know how "high quality" this ozonator is, but it does smell or feel crisp like the ocean or the air after a thunder storm (I put my face really close to it), so it seems legit.
I'm not trying to "counter" what anyone else has to say, I just thought I should share my experience with you.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
thanks scott and hoosiers. I also responded favorably to ozone in germany despite the babs, almost like my body went into an immediate and intense killing mode. I was feverish after every session, but less so with each successive one of the 5.
Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
Ozone is literally the only thing that helps me and is the only thing that my body can tolerate. I have a significant problem with babesia.
[ 04-13-2009, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: LittleLymie19 ]
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
interesting LL. thank you.
Posted by LittleLymie19 (Member # 15610) on :
Whoa let me edit that. That post made no sense. I'm sorry, my brain is highly fogged today.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I didn't even notice the difference. Musta been that selective reading finetuned by this DD =)
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I'm curious why there isn't more interest in ozone. Here is an excerpt from a woman that talks about her experience with both hyperbaric & ozone. The entire article is linked below. What strikes me is the notion that it hits all kinds of bugs, not by virtue of oxygenating the environment but because neutrophils release ozone in order to kill pathogens directly. In that sense, it wouldn't discriminate between aerobic & anaerobic bugs since our innate immunity wouldn't either.
"Ozone is known to be bactericidal, fungidical, protozoacidal and virucidal. In short, it is a strong germicide. It also oxidizes toxins, certain metals, and pesticides--breaking them down so the body can excrete them." -
Here is another excerpt from Bryan Rosner's site (although it's not from Bryan himself):
"I have done an array of treatments prior to rife machines - HBOC, UV blood irradiation, hydrogen peroxide drips, auto-hemotherapy, ozone, advanced oxygen aphaeresis, underground Lyme Disease clinics, etc. So, I looked over the notes of what had the biggest impact - no matter what the pathogen - and ozone stood out predominantly......As a by-product, oxidizes toxins, including neurotoxins - THUS MARKEDLY REDUCING HERXES EVEN WHILE KILLING PATHOGENS."
Well you just have to wonder how far it makes it into the body before it's rendered useless.
I'm sure it's excellent at killing things on surfaces in the home.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
Oh wait, that is talking about the human body....hmmmm. I wonder why/how it can get to metals too, because I get the impression that the ozone molecule is really volitaile and thus would break down before it gets into deep tissue.
Oh well, if it works, it works.
Just be careful breathing it in too much because it can damage the lungs.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
When done with a sauna, the head needs to be out of the chamber so direct inhalation wouldn't be an issue
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. I have a wilson lamp sauna and have been looking into the Pressman group for info. The ozone machine is about 1200$ for ozonating water, oil, etc. I wonder if the ozone water, etc detoxes like the ozone sauna is reported to in the article.. then if money is better spent on an ionic footbath (which I have also been looking into) or an ozone generator or ozone sauna. ??
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I think they work differently so it is hard to compare. Ozone seems to kill viruses & oxidize metals/chemicals/neurotoxins, making them easier to remove. Ion footbaths seem to work by increasing the ratio of negative to positive ions in our body, indirectly causing cellular detoxification.
Hopefully others who have experienced both can chime in
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thanks, Joey.
Here is the Pressman site as per the article. I didnt know a steam sauna is an ozone sauna. Not sure about that. The generator I thought was 1200$ looks to be 2000$. Would like to know if sauna is more benefical than ozoneated water, oil, insufflation, funneling.
Does anyone else find the Brian Rosner link kind of..."so what"? The list of claims he makes seems strange because it's very broad and doesn't go into much detail, and nothing is substantiated. I can't possibly take something like that seriously when the claims are unsubstantiated with citations. The only place I can go to to learn more is a site selling the devices.
Then right after the list, he tells you where to buy the machine.
I wonder if he gets paid to just list those claims in his article (thus, he was provided the list by someone and didn't look up the data himself).
The reason I ask that is because it seems like if you had more information in the "why" department, you would state it in the article, and not make such broad, sweeping generalizations with no data or references.
"14. Is relatively cheap and able to be done at-home, whenever desired."
Why would anyone put that as the last claim unless you were trying to sell something? That statement has nothing to do with the efficacy of O3.
I just get disgusted when I am trying to make an informed decision, and the person litters the article with sales pitches.
I think O3 is great, but not when it's presented like this.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
Okay, never mind...it seems like Brian Rosner was quoting someone else.
I wondered why a bunch of the article was in "bold."
Usually when you quote someone and it's more than 3 lines long, you indent the quotation to the right or put it in italics or something....that's why I got confused and thought it was Brian writing it. He apparently strayed from general formatting rules there.
Okay, so anyways....I don't understand why this Marc Fett thinks we will just take his word for it without any citations, and an obvious conflict of interest by listing places to get the device.
I mean, if it's a letter, it's a letter, I'd just like to see something from someone a little less biased if I'm gonna drop some hard earned cash.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Hoosiers:
He copied and pasted that entire part in bold from a user on the lyme-and-rife support group. His words follow, and he actually has an ad to 4 different manufactuerers of ozone generators. Of course, he still makes money off the google ads but pennies.
Not to say he doesn't shoot from the hip sometime, but I actually think Bryan offers an unbiased and informed comparison of HBOT and ozone in his book and site, based on what information is available.
As for the link to that one company, he is not alone. I have seen many references to Saul Pressman as one of the foremost experts on ozone therapy & describe his products as top-notch.
I have no financial connection to any of these companies, nor have I even spoken with Saul or Bryan Rosner.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
Thanks for taking the time to clear that up and respond.
Didn't mean to come across as harsh, I just have been taken for a ride before, and I think it's easy for that to happen when money is involved.
Didn't mean to derail this thread, nor do I mean to create "bad vibes" here...I'm probably just having a rough day so I apologize. Female issues....don't think you need any more detail!!!!
So thank you for taking the time to even post the articles, (you're right, it's not like we have tons of info right now)...didn't mean to tear them apart.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
no mind at all.
I hope we can keep this thread going! It seems very very few ppl have done both therapies, so this may be yet another pioneering thread.
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
There have to be more folks out there using these modalities.
I know Marc on Lymestrategies often mentions ozone, usually referring to the machine that ozonates water, etc.
Thanks for the information.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I've learned in the last few days that one of the suspected downfalls of HBOT may be the same problem with ozone: worsening babesia/babesia-like bugs. May have to do concurrent treatment with MMS or other antimalarials/antiprotozoals immediately before ozone to keep the load down.
However, it seems to be very potent for just about everything else.
I will probably wait on trying either one just because I would like to do as much as I can with the photons first to lower everything I can catch energetically
Posted by maureen2174 (Member # 11471) on :
I haven't ever tried ozone saunas, but have heard from others awhile back that it was very beneficial.
I actually was planning on using this as part of my treatment at one point, but never got around to it.
I spoke with a woman who used it for her daughter's treatment, and combining this with rife, she was able to get her into a remission. Unfortunately, she did have a relapse a year or so afterwards.
Anyway, she told me what to purchase to set up an affordable ozone sauna at home-
a portable steam tent sauna (cheap on ebay)
an oxygen concentrator (have to buy a used one on ebay and get around the needing a medical script- they can we used for welding purposes I believe)
an ozone generator (enaly i think it is sells them on ebay)
I actually purchased all of the above, but like I said, never did use this, although I always imagine that at some time in the future I may give it a try.
Your head sticks out of the sauna and the ozone generator connects to the oxygen concentrator and the tube goes in the sauna, so you create an ozone steam sauna.
I think I ended up spending around $1,000 for everything- the oxygen concentrator was pretty expensive, but I just couldn't find a cheap one at the time. It was very expensive to ship too, as it was heavy.
Have heard lots of successes with ozone. I have drank ozonated water in the past, but not sure how much that helps.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Still very much interested in this topic, and now doing more research on singlet air such as valkion and eng3. All of these machines are pricy, so I'm trying to see which would be most beneficial if I decided to go the oxygenation route.
The singlet air would seem to bypass the problem with babesia and other protozoa that feed off oxygen; however it would probably have less of a killing effect on everything else. Has anyone besides scott and R62 used singlet oxygen devices?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I'm reading that when using the Valkion, it is the energy emited when the singlet oxygen degrades to lower-level oxygen, that the body uses..not the singlet oxygen itself. This would seemingly make it more of a ATP & detoxification booster as opposed to killer. It may boost killing by strengthening cell functions, but that is certainly more roundabout that the O3 that would retain the singlet form.
So really I'm comparing a therapy that uses oxidation to kill (ozone) vs a free radical reducer (singlet). At least that's what it seems like to me
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I'm researching this as well. I have not begun using the valkion so no personal experience to share. I think you are right.
I am wondering the same and also wondering if an ozone sauna is better than an ozone generator that makes ozonated water, oil, etc.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
An ozone sauna utilizes an ozone generator, oxygen generator, and steam sauna. It just has better absorption (so i hear) than insufflation.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
That would make sense... then could you use the ozone generator to make ozonated oils, etc?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Not sure about that. That's beyond my pedigree =P
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
I feel like I'm getting a degree...
Posted by AndrewInCA (Member # 2010) on :
I know someone who used ozone insufflation for years and said it was one of the best things she ever did to control her Lyme.
I did a bunch of research on the eng3 vs. Valkion not too long ago and a number of people reported the Valkion to be MUCH better than the eng3.
One DC tried them side-by-side in his clinic and said the eng3 just didn't compare to the Valkion, FWIW
Posted by Alv (Member # 15192) on :
Yes you can if you have an ozonater of the medical grade...even with simple ozonators that are not exspensive..google end find.
You can ozonate the oil and the water to drink ..but they will burn easy as it takes time to ozonate the oil..
Only the MEDICAL grade ozonater can survive this.ALSO this is one of the things that HULDA CALRCK sugest to all cancer pateints to treat parasites and it was costly to buy the prepared one but owning one it makes the treatment cheaper.
I have done shopping 3 years ago ( when I was a member of that forum ) and finally was convinced that ONLY the PERSON in CANADA could really make it perfectly for treatment -the exact amount of ozone in OLIVE oil that need to be to treat the parasites.
HIS oil won on a conference of ALTERNATIVE docs in conference in germany ...again that was 3 years ago.He ships around the world.But again if you biy a medical grade OZONATOR you can use it for any thing , sauna, insuflation , water and oil..even baths with OZONATED water and you can get it..
Ok ...to do certain things you need to talk to an exspert or advise of the veterans OF OZONE treatment ( insuflation to the ears should be done from somebody that knows how to use it-careful here ) .There are so many benefits from that.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Do you all know if the ozone can make other infections worse?
Andrew.. what did the folks report the valkion did for them? (this is after I buy one I ask...)
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
R62--you're funny, and in a good way. Instinctual purchase be damned, I hope you'll get great results from it!
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Aw Joey, Thank you. You made my night.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Yes Andrew, I'm also interested in the comparison (if you can't already tell). From what I'm reading elsewhere, the Valkion is more of a balancer. The energy it emits restores the balance of good and bad organisms. Also, one woman reacted badly because she didn't have antimicrobials in place to deal with the microbes/toxins released by the Valkion.
The Valkion brochure is all about reducing free radicals. The ozone kills via oxidation (increases free radicals) I'm thinking a good way to gauge if you would do well on ozone (if you can't get a blood IV) is if you ever get a boost from vitamin c IV. Although vitamin c is an antioxidant, when you do 50-80g, it kills via oxidation.
So that's the question. Do you have so many bugs that you need massive oxidation? Clear the brush with a flamethrower to prevent a larger brush fire?
[ 04-24-2009, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: m0joey ]
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I asked Dr. Saul Pressman the question about ozone and counterindications with babesia...will relay the response.
He also recommends that we do 7 liver flushes, 2 weeks apart prior to starting the ozone, of which he thinks the ozone sauna plus ear insufflation (since your head sticks out of the sauna) is the way to get the most benefit from ozone.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
So the valkion works like a photon device in a sense. Do you have a link to that info so I can read it?
Thanks for the good information.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
which part? Much of it was pulled from other yahoo groups
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
the e coli part...
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
This is an interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up.
I find the ozonated oils (Rizoles as the products Dr. K recommends) to be interesting, too.
If you get an ozone machine you can use it for a steam sauna & to make the oils...
I was researching that rectal or vaginal insufflation may be good against mycoplasmas.
I never heard of the Valkion before - sounds interesting, too.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Found it. This says it cut down on the e coli.. I hope thats right..
>>One of the striking effects is that treatment of waste water, contaminated with many bacteria like E-Coli bacteria, showed a dramatic decrease in numbers after only 5 minutes treatment. After a treatment with activated light a decrease from 3500 to 270 bacteria per 100 ml was recorded.
This is not to be considered as a way of treating waste water, but to show the effect of the singlet energy on living organisms. There is no reason to believe that this energy could destroy all the good bacteria we have in living organisms. The energy regulates and restores the balance between what is good and bad in the body. We always need some oxidative capacity (oxygen free radicals) in our immune system, but in most humans there is a heavy surplus....
Treatment Another reason for many diseases is the lack of oxygen. There are many therapies used all over the world to increase the amount of oxygen in the body. They can be based upon inhalation of extra oxygen, ionised oxygen, blood treatment with ozone or pure oxygen, infusions with hydrogen peroxide, ozone or pure oxygen, oral treatments with stabilized oxygen etc.
They all have a very good initial effect, but one major disadvantage:
They do not reduce the oxidative stress, on the contrary, they often cause an increase in oxidative stress.
An ischemic-reperfusion injury is a typical case where after an operation, for instance after a by-pass operation, the blood stream is started again. That is one of the most dangerous periods when a lot of oxidative stress can cause fatal damage to the organs. Administration of antioxidants like Vitamin C before the operation can in some way improve the situation.
A simple treatment with the equipment not only gives an increased oxygen uptake and utilization (7% with healthy well trained sportsmen), it also decreases the free radical production in a dramatic way.>>
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Oops!! I totally misread that part about the ecoli. It was late, forgive me if you will. Well...even better!
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
A retired ID doctor in Sarasota believes the combo of HBOT + Pycnogenol would work for lyme.
Only a good source of Pycnogenol (French tree pine bark).
$$$$
Hope you are very rich. Both are extremely costly.
Sorry, I'm just being honest.
I don't think oxygen is as much of a problem as is the lack of hydrogen.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
At this point I am ruling out HBOT. It is much more expensive than ozone, and from what I've read there's nothing HBOT does that ozone cannot
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Actually you can build an inexpensive decent ozone steam sauna for anywhere between $1000-$2000. HBOT is in the 5-figure range
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
While we absolutely DO need oxygen, the downside is it increases "free radicals"...oxygen looking around for something to lock onto.
The things it locks onto help us to destroy MOST pathogens though...NO, CO (yes, very briefly we make CO), H2O2, etc.
Bb combats the above.
Free radicals are very damaging. We make anti-oxidant enzymes to combat them. All our enzymes need Mg (+ other nutrients) to be made and our Mg level is far too low.
Mg is bound to our ATP as Mg-ATP where it is supposed to help transfer phosphate groups onto amino acids.
As I understand it.
Many of our cells are "hydrogen powered".
Posted by AndrewInCA (Member # 2010) on :
R62 & mOjoey,
I tried to find some more info on the Valkion vs. the eng3 from before. The only thing I came across was the following quote from a message board posting:
quote:I have tried the eng3 Active Air 3 on 8 clients in a small study. I ran it head-to head with the Valkion unit (recommended by Dr. Klinghardt). The Valkion unit won hands down. I returned my eng3 Active Air 3 machine this afternoon.
I can e-mail you my informal study results if you would like.
I can't seem to track down this person - it would be nice to see this "informal" study. So this just remains an anecdotal recommendation.
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
I do ear insufflation. Have a sauna as well, but it takes a lot more time so I generally just do the ozone in the ears.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thank you Andrew. I started using yesterday.
I'm not sure how to tell how beneficial when doing so many other things.. except if it causes a major detox reaction.
Posted by AndrewInCA (Member # 2010) on :
R62 - good luck! Be sure to report back any findings. I've been interested in singlet O2 for awhile but am busy with other treatments right now.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I haven't heard back from Dr. Saul (the renowned expert on ozone) about the babesia yet, but I did go digging through his archives and he insists that LACK of oxidation is actually the pathological cause of many chronic illnesses and that the push for anti-oxidants is just a bandaid that doesn't address root cause. I will be reading his book, "The Story of Ozone" shortly
This is very interesting, and seems to make sense on an evolutionary level.. which is why Cheney's theory about 'oxygen toxicity" never sat well with me. If we're poisoned by oxygen, why should we even bother?? Even Cheney admits that this oxygen toxicity is a downstream issue rather than causative issue of CFIDS.
Many on the ozone yahoo group (many lyme and CFS patients ) seem to have really great results from ozone sauna and insufflation.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Here is Dr. Saul's response from ozonetherapy@yahoogroups (he gave me permission to post here):
----------------------------------------------
Dear Joey,
Someone has been telling you pretty stupid things. Babesia is wiped out on contact by ozone.
Ozone is O2 + O1. The O1 is singlet oxygen. Regardless of what it is called, Valkion or Eng3 is ozone. In the same way, Aran is ozone. These are marketing ploys to avoid FDA censure, since the FDA is dead set against ozone. Similarly, we label our ozone generators "water purifiers" to avoid the same problem.
Best of health! Dr. Saul Pressman
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
It sounds though that singlet is a component of ozone but not full ozone? Wouldn't it be the active form of ozone that has been broken down by the body?
I wonder if you can make ozonated oils from the valkion.. no way to make a sauna from it.
Thank you, Joey.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
r62--your mailbox is full
Posted by AndrewInCA (Member # 2010) on :
Err... I'm no expert in this area, but isn't breathing ozone a BIG no-no? If the Valkion and eng3 were emitting breathable ozone - well, that would be very bad, right?
Something doesn't add up here...
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
r62--your mailbox is full
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thats what I am wondering too...
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I think he meant they are derivations of ozone... obviously the singlet oxygen is not ozone. Also, considering the singlet in valkion degrades to oxygen by the time it reaches the body,you can't say they are realy all that similar. Valkion=oxygen plus energy in form of photon? Ozone=starts as ozone, still ozone when in blood
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
My mailbox should be clear now. Thank you.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
The Aran
Posted by AndrewInCA (Member # 2010) on :
Wow - the "Story of Ozone" site is fascinating and educational! I need to read the rest of this tomorrow. Who knew ozonated olive oil gel makes an "excellent lubricant for intercourse"?
m0Joey, you will have to be the first to try out and report back on "bladder insufflation" ;-)
Interestingly, my first LLMD (an MD) gave me autohemotherapy in his office, withdrawing (what looked to me like) large amounts of my blood, exposing it to ozone, and putting it back in. I remember how bright red it would get in the bag. It was a long time ago, and now I don't remember how well it worked for me.
Now I'm wondering if it was legal for him to do that here in CA...
All of this talk of ozone has piqued my interest in trying it again.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Here is a non-Pressman M.D. weighing the pros and cons of ozone...comparing the purely academic view vs. the clinical observation view, and argues that ultimately, ozone may have a net net antioxidant effect by oxygenating the tissues of the chronically un-oxygenated and "diminishes oxidosis."
Andrew--That's quite a fancy name for IV ozone. That's what some of us did in Dr. W's office.
Posted by lymeberry (Member # 20102) on :
Can you pay and go try an ozone sauna somewhere?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Yes. I will probably do that as soon as I get the green light to do it. This is long-term brainstorming.. I don't plan on doing this until my body is ready. For slow detoxifiers, it's necessary to inch our way into something that kills this effectively or else we'll pay the price. I imagine that even if we'd done only IV ozone at Dr. W's office, he would've followed with IV drainage therapy
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I wouldn't put too much trust in what Dr. Ali says... I went to see him & found he was (putting it mildly) - less than I expected.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
What were you expecting from him?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
More on ozone indirectly acting as an antioxidant in the chronically unoxygenated:
infection-->cellular hypoxia-->increase in free radicals and impaired production of antioxidants
Supplying antioxidants address the last step but doesn't resolve the vicious cycle of cellular hypoxia.
With ozone or oxygen, mitochondria can produce ATP (38 molecules vs. 2 without oxygen) and cells can 1) product sufficient antioxidants on their own again and 2) detoxify the toxins that interfered with free radicals/antioxidant neutralization. We need to remember that all the yin and yangs of our body should be doing a little dance.. the goal is get them to do the dance again, not to label them good cop bad cop and give the good cop permanent crutches (ahem antioxidants)
So ozone is actually restoring the antioxidant capabilities of our body.
Also, the singlet oxygen acts as a free radical that oxidizes cells/bacteria/viruses that don't have antioxidant production. So pretty much it kills everything save the healthy cells that are still producing plenty of antioxidants to shield against the singlet. Pretty amazing mechanism of elimination huh?
We tend to look at toxic buildup in an increasingly toxic world with resignation, but without these toxins, would those of us with CFS symptoms even be chronically-fatigued?
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Joey, your PM is full!
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
all clear
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Anyone tried H2O2 oral therapy?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
bumping for Kali
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
To prep my body for the ozone sauna, I'm gonna start adding hydrogen peroxide to my epsom salt/baking soda/EDTA baths. Combined with the rizols I'm taking, this should be a good way to inch into a more oxidative state.
Just about finished with his book, where he describes disease in the Enderlein mold...ozone is just as important for killing as it is restoring the optimal milieu, or cell environment.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I went to see Dr Ali in the beginning days of my illness. His office is in NJ & he also has a Manhattan office - right in the middle of tick country. He gave me an Elissa test. That was it. No further testing for Lyme. So, he just went along with the Fibromyalgia diagnosis.
He gave me a basic protocol for hydrogen peroxide drips & lots of supplements that are his own brand.... so many, that I vomited - which I rarely do. It's kind of a long story but he did spend at least one of my consultation sessions telling me about his own health problems which included a mole that was recently removed from his face.
He does not want to comply with any requests for disability since he feels that his protocol is enough to cure people completely & it's the patient's fault if they don't get well.
He's a complete egotist... He also has a radio show in NYC where he is the personal physician of the station manager. It's obvious that he was given the job after they booted Gary Null - who was very popular.
His "followers" are fairly mindless & are looking for a guru figure... I had many conversations with them while getting the hydrogen peroxide drips - that I didn't need.
Bottom line - he completely missed the fact that I had Lyme all those years ago. If I had been given a more thorough diagnosis, it may have saved me years of suffering.
In my opinion - the guy is an egotistical ignoramus. He's incompetent & he thinks he knows everything. It's a bad combination in a personality that one looks towards as a healer.
I would not take anything he says seriously. The guy is a joke. I know he came out with a book that gave credibility to chronic fatigue syndrome at a time when it was not taken seriously... but after I spent $1000s - I regretted spending one dime on him.
It's just a holistic money factory for a bloated ego. I would avoid him.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I was never considering seeing him or suggesting anyone else see him. If you read the article closely you'll see it was a balanced comparison of clinical ozone observations vs. academic theories by a MD. That's all.. I wasn't talking about lyme or character.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I wasn't sure if you wanted to know this. I can delete it if it's too harsh.
Since it was a personal situation with me... I tend to be a bit more opinionated about him.
It different when you read an article or book or hear his radio show. I thought he was pretty reasonable until I went to see him. Sometimes it's like that with "famous" doctors, unfortunately.
They can become a cult of their own personality...
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
PS - good luck with the ozone.
How are the foot baths working out?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Thank you Sparkle.
The foot baths are going well... I'm still on Mode 1..the manufacterer says usually 4-6x on Mode 1 and you can move on... I think I've done 10x and my doc says I still can't move up (there are 3 modes, the higher modes mean more negative ions so more detox)
Detoxing is a mother isn't it =)
Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Dear Scott,
An ND friend of mine uses H2O2 orally, in combination with inversion, for treating autistic kids.
I've tried it out at home myself, as I have neuroborelliosis, with white spots in my brain, according to an MRI.
You need to use FOOD GRADE H2O2 which is DILUTED WITH DISTILLED WATER!! What you can get at a health food store is way, way too strong, and can burn the tissues of the mouth and esophagus.
Anyway, I also put mine into orange juice, drank it down, and then spent about 15 minutes inverting (usually not all the way).
It does seen to help some. I'm not doing it at this time, as I'm taking the AI drops.
Best,
Cass A
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Here is an exchange by Dr. Pressman and a few others on combinating 03 and H202 (both ingested and bath):
Does your advice also apply if a person is drinking ozonated water and doing hydrogen peroxide baths or just if the person is ingesting the hydrogen peroxide?
What about drinking ozonated water (between meals) and using some of the oxygen products on the market such as oxygen elements plus, oxymune or cellfood (with meals)? ---------------------------------------------------
Dear xxxx,
There won't be a problem if you are drinking ozonated water and bathing in water with hydrogen peroxide in it.
There won't be a problem with other supplements since you are drinking the ozonated water on an empty stomach.
Best of Health! Dr. Saul Pressman ----------------------------------------------------
> Dear xxxx,
> Don't do H2O2 and ozonated water together. You might make OH-, > hydroxyl, which is even more powerful than ozone, and is too strong > for medical use. > > Best of Health! > Dr. Saul Pressman
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
To sum it up, he is saying it's ok to do ozonated water and oils (which I'm taking) and hydrogen peroxide baths on the same day as long as they're 3 hours apart, but not ok to combine ozone & H202 ingestion because it forms hydroxl.
Now I can go get that 35% H202 to bath in!! Wasn't sure about combining it with rizols at first...
[ 05-04-2009, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: m0joey ]
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
More on 03 vs. h202:
I am wondering if the body handles ozone differently than hydrogen peroxide? For instance, if a person has Hydrogen peroxide baths, is there a different chemical reaction in the body than what occurs with ozone saunas? thanks for the reply xxxx
Th body makes both hydrogen peroxide and ozone internally.
The body produces catalase to specifically control hydrogen peroxide. When you cut yourself and pour hydrogen peroxide on the cut, the foaming you see when it contacts the blood is due to the effect of catalase on the hydrogen.
When a person bathes in a hydrogen peroxide bath, the hydrogen is prevented from entering the body. This is not so when you drink hydrogen peroxide. The hydrogen is nauseating when drunk, and the major reason people quit that protocol. There are few people advocating the drinking of hydrogen peroxide these days. Most are content to advocate its use externally.
In the ozone sauna, the stimulus of the steam heat causes the pores to open, allowing ozone to enter into the body. It rapidly reacts with lipids and sets off a cascade of lipid peroxide reactions, eliminating bacteria and viruses and cancer cells on contact, as well as toxins stored in the fat.
A similar process will happen with a hydrogen peroxide bath, but with less effect, since hydrogen peroxide is a considerably weaker oxidant than ozone.
Best of Health! Dr. Saul Pressman
Posted by heiwalove (Member # 6467) on :
scott, can you do ear insufflation at home? if so, how is it done, and what type of ozone machine do you recommend?
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
The saunas.. is there a way to make one yourself or is it necessary to purchase the expensive units? Given a medical grade ozonator...
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Go to the lymetopics yahoo group & check their files. They came up with an economical way to do the whole setup
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thanks..
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I am now reading Dr. Pressman's other book, "The Owner's Manual For The Human Body". This guy is absolutely brilliant on both end of the medical chasm (even oxygenbabe agrees), so I want to learn everything I possibly can from him.
This book is more comprehensive/holistic and goes into protocols for specific diseases including lyme and cfs.
His wife had CFS and is now cured (completely) for 6 years after using a holistic approach with ozone as the mainstay
Hey mojoy THANKS A LOT for sharing !
Posted by SForsgren (Member # 7686) on :
Yes, I do it at home via an ozone applicator much like a stethoscope that does both ears at once.
The cost for a good generator and good sauna is about 5,000 though others may have found more reasonable solutions.
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Have you found either application helpful?
Posted by Alv (Member # 15192) on :
He mojoy!
I thought you might want to read this !That part belong tou your topic !
My doctor tested me for liver flush, and said I need to wait another 3 weeks before I do ONE. Dr. Pressman wants us to do SEVEN before we start the ozone... especially us CFS types.
bah humbug. But if waiting it out saves me from the herx of the century when I start ozone, her caveat will be worth its weight in gold.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
When I did the liver flush - I didn't herx. I had an adverse reaction from toxins &/or gall stones moving around. I don't think my big issue is Lyme any more. I have an accumulation of toxins that have probably been stored in my liver for many years. The liver is quite resilient.
You may want to try things to loosen up the gall stones in the liver prior to your flush, Joey. There are things you can do. One of them is to do an apple fast. I read the malic acid in apples can loosen up the stones.
You may also expel parasites. Do some research on it. There are things to do to lead up to the big flush. Another thing you can do is castor oil packs. Some people drink a lemon blended in 1 & 1/2 cup of water with a tbs. of olive oil for 5 days. There are different versions of the liver flush. You can do one that is more moderate.
Do you drink juices? Beet juice is good for the liver in moderation as well as some of the others - carrots, etc. Milk Thistle is protective of the liver.
I also read about a hydrogen peroxide therapy with using a nasal spray bottle & inhaling the hydrogen peroxide.... I forgot the exact formula & dosage. It's probably on the internet if you do a search.
Seems like ozone is strong stuff - you may want to take breaks every so often. Doesn't seem like something one would want to overdo...
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Hi Sparkle,
Yes I've done multiple other types of cleanses and am currently doing paleocleanse, paloegreens and hepopat mainly. I also do daily apple cider vinegar + lemon juice.
I've also been killing parasites and now doing H202 baths.
Despite all that I'm still getting a no on the flush. Energetic medicine works in funny ways.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
When you are ready for it - your body will let you know.... There must be some reason why it's happening this way for you. There's no rush.
It's pretty intense. I'm glad I did it. I was in bad shape for a couple of weeks, though.
I'm going to do more when it's time. You may also want to try a coffee enema...
Posted by AndrewInCA (Member # 2010) on :
Joey,
In your research on oxygen (including ozone) therapies, did you come across any info on how they would affect aerobic pathogens, such as Bartonella?
I know there has been some talk about HBOT being detrimental in people with Bart - has this topic come up regarding ozone?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
From talking with Dr. Pressman, ozone doesn't discriminate between aerobic and anaerobic pathogens because of the singlet oxygen
Posted by rachellemarie (Member # 16419) on :
Joey,
If you're going to use peroxide in your bath water, you might want to make sure your water is not chlorinated. I read somewhere, and I can't now remember where, that the peroxide mixed with chlorine and other crap commonly found in city water, does not mix well. Sorry I don't have more information for you but you might find information on the web regarding this if you do a google search. Just thought I'd mention since I noticed you're doing these baths now. I'm going to put a dechlorinator filter on my bath (called a "bath ball") if/when I start doing peroxide baths.
Not sure if the baths are as effective as IV peroxide, but for whatever it's worth, I did several months (4 x's per week) of peroxide via IV, and didn't notice a thing. Perhaps the baths are more effective, hopefully or best used in conjunction with other therapies.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Yes I am buying a shower filter and plan on filling up the tub that way.
MMS is a form of chlorine and I recall Dr. Pressman saying they shouldn't be mixed.
Posted by aliyalex (Member # 6976) on :
Anybody know how to use the Valkion - frequency and duration, for example? And what positive do you notice?
Posted by GraceT (Member # 16558) on :
Hi Scott and Joey, I have not tried ozone orally, but my biofeedback therapist has me using ozone rectally. I hesitated to say anything - rather personal, but modesty is lost with this disease.
Started out with 3 minutes and worked up to 15 minutes 1-2X/week.
My ND said ozone can also be used vaginally, which might help Candida, for those with this problem.
We might end up with this tool at home as well. It is possible hubby has LD. His Igenix blood draw was completed today.
Grace T
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
ozone should never be done orally unless you're talking about ozonated oils.
The misconeption about ozone being dangerous is due to it actually being dangerous if breathed in directly but safe just about via any other orfice in your body.
Grace--women do have quite the anatomical advantage with ozone insufflation. Vaginal is great for getting directly into lymph.
Please keep us posted on how it goes.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I just purchased the ozone sauna from longevity resources, so i'll be starting therapy in about a week or two.
Posted by brite7 (Member # 16245) on :
where can I get ozonated water to drink and ozonated oils?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Here is what Dr. Beck recommends (as part of the larger Beck protocol) for ozonating water. It is not a medical grade ozonator, but is sufficient for ozonating water. You can get ozonated oil from Nature's Gift, or you can do rizols which are ozonoated oils targeted for different classes of pathogens (zeta for viruses, gamma for parasites & anaerobes, my for bart etc)
I've heard good things about this sota ozonator for ozonated water tho. If you want to ozonate your own olive oil, I think you may need a better ozonator because it takes something like 24 hrs of ozone to stiffen it into a salve.
Posted by brite7 (Member # 16245) on :
Hi Joey. Thanks for the info! This may be a silly question but do I have to make my own ozone water? Is it possible to purchase already made? And where I can get the rizols? Thanks Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Not sure about buying just the water. Not that I know of because ozonators are technically illegal in the U.S. ozonators are labeled as "purification systems" so you might have to dig for it.
Depending on how much water you want to make though and the cost of buying ozonated water, it might be worthwhile to just make your own. The ozonator is about $325, so if you compare with bottles of penta water (which is highly purified oxygenated water--$4 a pop), you pay it off in about 80 days. If you plan on drinking your water longer than 3 months (I don't see why you wouldn't want to considering its benefits) then it would pay for itself within that timeline.
[ 05-26-2009, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: m0joey ]
Posted by brite7 (Member # 16245) on :
I see what you are saying about the cost benefits of an ozone generator especially if we are using it in the long run. Do you happen to also know a good resource for rizols?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
They're a bit pricey, but I"m not sure where else you can get em. They're really strong...
If you want cheaper, just get pure ozonated olive oil
Posted by brite7 (Member # 16245) on :
Thanks Joey Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I finally got the green light to start ozone therapy a few days ago. Starting out with only 3 minutes of ear insufflation a day, now my 3rd day. I got a fever similar to (but milder than) when I last got ozone in germany. i also had easily the most toxic coffee enemas I've ever had:
I know this may be TMI for some people, but I wanted to put this out for others that are interested in some quantifiable measure of toxicity:
When I first started doing enemas about a month ago, I could easily hold the whole liter for 15 minutes before feeling the need to expel. This has been the case every time I've done the enema since.
The day after my 1st ozone session, I had to split up the liter into 2, and I couldn't hold either of the portions for more than 20 seconds. Same thing today.
For those that haven't done coffee enemas, the rule of thumb seems to be that with greater toxicity the more urge you have to expel, and sooner. That definitely seems to be the case.
Overall, I'm quite excited about the therapy!
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thanks for the report, Joey.
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
So far, the ozone therapy has been working like a charm. However, I advise anyone that goes into this to proceed with caution. Especially for the neuro-lyme, or highly neurotoxic patients: ear insufflation should be energetically tested for if possible. It is difficult to tell if increased brain fog is due to detox or a toxicity backlog--in my case, it was the latter. Once I cleared out that toxicity, I did it more liberally.
However, I've done ozone sauna and rectal insufflation with no problems whatsoever. I think the rectal insufflation is probably the best thing since slices of photons because of the gut-brain connection and the frequently-cited terrible gut ecology most of suffer from. It will kill just about everything in the gut besides parasites (esp. large ones I think), so you need to take probiotics to replenish (I'm taking progurt)
Ozone sauna has been wonderful because it just cleans the fat and lymph, in addition to bloodstream, where toxins tend to get stored pre- and post-transport. when I first started about 2 months ago, my heart felt like it was popping out of my chest when I went past 15 minutes, but today I just did 30 minutes and felt really good afterwards. I follow it with a freezing cold shower to seal it with lymphatic drainage.
I also do ozonated water every day just to purge toxins in digestive system. I've read that ozonated water also gets ozone into the liver.
Dr. Pressman recommends an average of 7 liver flushes total, and I can see why. I think if I'd done all 7 before starting ozone I wouldn't be feeling hepatic pressure every 3 weeks or so (a clear sign that gallstones are building up)--the ozone increases the toxic load pretty rapidly. I was hasty to start treatment tho, and besides the episode with ear insufflation causing excessive brain fog I haven't had a major detox rxn or "healing crisis".
All in all, very satisfied so far with this therapy.
Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
Joey, Could you tell us how your CFS symptoms are doing through this ozone treatment, do you have any more energy/less fatigue?
Last do you think you might ask Dr. P one more question for me - as I have babesia like you-- does the oxygenation caused by exercise feed (make worse) babesia? So far no one has been able to answer this question. Everytime I'm exercising and I get a bit out of breath I'm wondering if I actually TRIGGERING the babesia and just making my situation worse. thanks, Jeremy
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
My energy is getting better. Ozone sauna helps reduce lactic acid post-exercise, maybe ammonia too. Either way my PEM is improving. When I first started pushing the envelope a little bit 2 weeks ago, I immediately crashed after a 20-minute walk with an uphill portion. I was struggling to make it back to my house (which is on a hill). Now I am doing a walk like this every day with ease.
It bears repeating that I've done a lot of work prior to starting ozone. Many people that do this kind of intense ozone treatment have a major healing crisis and feel worse for some time. My infections had pretty much come under control by the time I started, so I was dealing with mainly toxins & heavy metals. However, it also bears repeating that my energy levels prior to ozone were still only about 50% of my previous. I would say i'm up to around 65%-70% now
I'm still unsure about the babesia: I treated the babesia with energetic medicine before I really started the ozone, but according to Dr. Pressman it kills babesia too.
Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
Joey, thanks for the knowledge. Ok I'll ask Dro Pressman myself about oxygenation of the body and babs. Its actually my number one question of all, I truly feel severe air hunger especially after excessive??? Cardiac tests didn't show much. And I feel much better without babs meds. I prefer a little airhunger in the heat to being layed out for months unable to move or think much with babs herbs. thanks, Jeremy
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Air hunger isn't just due to babs. It can be, but not if you have classic CFIDS (don't know if you do). In my case, cellular hypoxia, or an overreliance on anaerobic metabolism, is at the root of the air hunger. There is simply not enough ATP prodution going on, for some reason or another.
Posted by jl123 (Member # 15594) on :
Joey, After 4 months on Enula, cyriptolosis, and art, 75% of my air hunger was gone- though obviously it has come back. And yes I have rather bad Chronic Fatigue. So babs may indeed play a bigger role in breathing, it may? j
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Perhaps. I don't know if you fit the criteria for CFS, but usually postexertional malaise is the one that really separates CFS from "chronic fatigue". With classic CFS breathing problems are usually independent of any particular bug but rather due to the ATP issue that Dr. Myhill talks about
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Joey, did you see a need to start with the less expensive unit (less powerful or less range?)?
I think Dr. P recommends it for ear sulfocation, but Im not sure I want to start there and would prefer the water, rectal, sauna.
Do you have recommendations or experience to share about that?
Does one need to work up to the sauna?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
I did not.
I also would take Dr. P's recommendation with a grain of salt. I actually think rectal is a better way to start than ear because it cleanse out the gut and affects the gut-brain connection. So far ear insufflation is the only form that I've had to be very careful with, but YMMV
Yeah you need to work up slowly with all forms. The steam sauna esp. for those with dysautonomia can be both good and bad, so err on the side of caution
Posted by R62 (Member # 18531) on :
Thanks, Joey. That makes sense to me. It sounds like you can control in a sense like with rife. The slower the less die off, so you can control that in a sense.
Posted by psano2 (Member # 11711) on :
Joey,
What kind of equipment is needed for ear insufflation or any other insufflation? I know the term, but don't know what is involved in the process.
I have an ozone generator w/tubing and an oxygen machine, but do you just stick the end of the tubing in your ear, or what? And while I know this isn't your thing, would the same be true for a vaginal insufflation?
I asked at one medical supply store about it, and they didn't know what I was talking about. Thanks for any help.
Patti
Posted by psano2 (Member # 11711) on :
I know my questions might seem dumb, but I'm still looking for help with answers.
Anyone?
Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
up -- anything new on this topic?
Posted by CD57 (Member # 11749) on :
anything new on this?
Posted by m0joey (Member # 13494) on :
Hey Patti,
Sorry I never saw your question. Wasn't really active in this forum at the time. For insufflation in both ears, you need a tube shaped like a stethescope. You can probably also use your existing tube for one ear at a time. The settings on the oxygen regulator and ozone regulator have to be specific to ear insufflation, sauna, etc, so don't do it willy-nilly.
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