And it also can't handle herbs, which are full of phenols.
Long story short, on a variety of abx since 2002. Most recently on zith + mino for about 3 yrs and doing well, with occasional pains in the side that were attributed to gall bladder.
Last fall, feelings of "toxicity" increased as did pain in my side so I had an abdominal cat scan. This showed a relatively normal gall bladder but an enlarged fatty liver and enlarged spleen.
I've stopped the abx and now have no idea what to do next. Fortunately, my lyme symptoms are taking their sweet time returning, but they are showing themselves. Aromatic herbs like oregano and herb teas also give me liver pain and symptoms of toxicity, even milk thistle!
Salt is contraindicated with impaired liver function as well, I guess since the kidneys are already picking up the slack.....oh, I was going to keep this short.
So, any ideas? Thanks!
Posted by soonermom (Member # 14494) on :
I am currently having liver issues myself and will be looking to see what others have to say about this.
Right now I am taking NAC, ALA, milk thistle and schizandra for my liver. I also had major pain (liver, gallbladder, and pancreas) from the maximum dose of milk thistle and had to lower it. Of course my liver enzymes hardly fell at all during that time , so I have increased them recently.
I do epsom salt baths and am beginning to look into rife.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Sue, might you also taking tylenol, by chance (as that can be very hard on the liver)?
I think oregano oil is far too harsh for many patients and as for herb tea, it depends so much upon the source. Milk thistle, too, can be too strong for some people.
Other than milk thistle have you used other herbs for liver support? Turmeric might be one that can help. You can start just by adding more to your diet - say, in black beans with cumin, too.
Are you able to get massage?
Do you have a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) near who might help you find another plan. There are dozens of other herbs or nutrients to help with the liver, a special diet for fatty liver, and if the ND also is a L.Ac., acupuncture can be very good for the liver.
Have you ever used glycine? That really helps the liver be able to work better.
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Have you considered a Rife machine?
You would still attention to liver support but that might be achieved through lymph or other massage, warm (not hot) baths, gentle exercise (balanced with assertive rest periods) . . .
and some very specific foods that contain lots of anti-oxidants as well as the good proteins and good fats.
Fish oil might still be tolerated as I don't think it contains phenols.
RIFE machine - with lyme and TBD (tick-borne disease).
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Posted by Sue vG (Member # 3143) on :
Thanks, folks. No, definitely not taking Tylenol or anything with Tylenol in it. Only occasionally will I take naproxen for a ruptured lumbar disk, but I've even stopped that. Right now, just Armour Thyroid. NO alcohol or aclohol-based tinctures, of course.
Turmeric, good suggestion that it is, also put me over the toxic edge. Full of phenols, to which I've become increasingly sensitive, I suppose, since my liver function has been gradually declining.
Rife is something that I've been meaning to try, maybe now's the time. I have used an ND in the past with good results, good idea to return to one. Thanks!
Posted by Ocean (Member # 3496) on :
Hi Sue,
Please be careful if you try rifing, if your body's organs are so stressed, killing more stuff could send you over the edge.
Is there a naturopathic doctor/herbalist or someone that you could see first?
I know someone on here took Allicin as prescribed from her LLMD and it lowered her liver enzymes in a very short time.
I'm so sorry that you are going through this, I hope you find something that can help you soon!
There is quite a lot of detail at this page, with a list that details phenolic and salicylate content of foods.
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Posted by micul (Member # 6314) on :
So what makes you so sure that this problem stems from taking too many abx for too many years? My first thought would be that my liver is infected with a protozoa of some sort. I doubt very much if this is because of overusing abx, but rather not targeting the correct infection.
You can see from the article below that Malaria has a liver stage that can cause fatty liver disease. I think that it's quite possible that Babesia has this same capability, even though it hasn't been officially documented yet. There are other protozoa parasites that can do the same thing, such as Entamoeba Histolytica and Giardia.
I'm not saying that your fatty liver cannot be due to damage from abx, but I think that it's more likely to be from a non Diagnosed, or insufficiently treated infection. I would have the same opinion for anyone that has a confirmed TBD.
quote:Parasitology: The fatty liver stage of malaria parasites
Christiaan van Ooij
The discovery of a type II fatty-acid biosynthesis pathway (FAS-II) in malaria parasites has raised hopes that these enzymes could form a new target for therapeutic intervention. Two groups now report in Cell Host & Microbe and Cellular Microbiology on the requirement for the FAS-II system in the parasite's life cycle. ParasitologyThe fatty liver stage of malaria parasites Immunofluorescence microscopy image showing a host cell infected with Plasmodium yoelii. The FabI enzyme of the parasite is shown in green inside the elaborately branching apicoplast of liver stages 30 hours post-infection, the parasitophorous vacuole membrane protein UIS4 is shown in red, and parasite and host cell nuclei are shown in blue. Image courtesy of A. M. Vaughan, Seattle Biomedical Research Institute, Washington, USA.
Parasites are introduced into the skin of a mammalian host by a mosquito bite, and subsequently infect the liver and invade hepatocytes. This leads to the production of merozoites that are competent to infect erythrocytes, which results in the symptoms of malaria. Subsequent sexual stages and transmission to the mosquito complete the life cycle.
The parasites rely on the hosts for many nutrients, but the discovery of components of the FAS-II system in Plasmodium species indicated that the parasite could synthesize its own fatty acids. The ability of the FAS-II inhibitor triclosan to block erythrocytic growth had suggested a requirement for the FAS-II system at this stage and established the FAS-II system as a potential drug target, but members of the Fidock and Kappe laboratories now reveal that the requirement for FAS-II is limited to the asymptomatic liver stage.
Vaughan and colleagues provide evidence that parasites only produce specific FAS-II enzymes in the late mosquito and liver stages, but not in the erythrocytic stage, which is consistent with data from Yu and colleagues. Together the groups show that deletion of FAS-II genes fabBF, fabZ or fabI did not affect the erythrocytic stage and only led to a measurable phenotype during growth in the liver. In vitro and in mice, mutant parasites invaded liver cells and grew normally but then became arrested. They did not produce the late-stage marker MSP1 (merozoite surface protein 1) and were unable to divide into daughter cells. In addition, Yu and colleagues observed that the fabI mutant was unable to induce the dissociation of infected hepatocytes from the surface of the culture dish. In murine models, infection with the fabBF and fabZ mutants failed to produce blood-stage parasites, whereas the fabI mutant produced blood-stage parasites at severely reduced levels compared with the wild type. However, the difference between the mutants could simply reflect differences in the mouse models used.
Why then does triclosan affect the erythrocytic stage? Yu and colleagues showed that certain derivatives of triclosan inhibited parasite growth better than triclosan itself, but no longer inhibited FabI activity in vitro. Furthermore, parasites that produced a triclosan-insensitive version of FabI were as sensitive to the drug as wild-type parasites. This elegant approach proved that triclosan must affect a different parasitic process.
It remains unclear why the FAS-II system is only required for part of the parasite's life cycle. Possibly, the prolific division of parasites inside hepatocytes that produces up to 5,000-30,000 merozoites (compared with 8-20 per infected erythrocyte) raises the fatty-acid requirement of the parasites above the levels that can be produced by the host cell, requiring the malaria parasite to synthesize its own.
References and links ORIGINAL RESEARCH PAPERS
1.
Yu, M. et al. The fatty acid biosynthesis enzyme FabI plays a key role in the development of liver stage malaria parasites. Cell Host Microbe 4, 567-578 (2008) * Article * PubMed * ChemPort 2.
Vaughan, A. M. et al. Type II fatty acid synthesis is essential only for malaria parasite late liver stage development. Cell. Microbiol. 3 Dec 2008 (doi: 10.1111/j.1462-5822.2008.01270.x)
Here's something else:
quote:Hepatic fatty metamorphosis in latent exoerythrocytic malaria Authors: F K Ghishan, M G Myers, K Younoszai
We report a child with asymptomatic latent exoerythrocytic Plasmodium vivax malaria whose initial presentation was only hepatomegaly and elevated serum lipids. Histology of the liver showed severe fatty metamorphosis. Liver size and the severe fatty metamorphosis decreased markedly with the return of serum lipids to normal after successful treatment of P. vivax. Although this association has been reported in monkeys infected with P. knowlesi, this is the first report of such an association in humans.
The American journal of gastroenterology.1980/12;74(6):532-5. ISSN: 0002-9270
[ 04-15-2009, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: micul ]
Posted by Sue vG (Member # 3143) on :
Thanks to all for the good ideas. Micul, I suppose anything is possible. I am not one to deny the ubiquity of parasites, but I did google "<my drugs> and fatty liver" and "<my drugs> and liver disease" and found medical articles attributing FLD and other liver diseases to both of my abx.
I suspect it's prolonged use of lyme meds *plus* other liver-taxing preparations and an admittedly high-fat diet (I've cut way back lately).
In some cases I read about, the conditions described were one-off reactions by single patients, but not all. Plus, I realized that some preparations I got from my dermatologist (tretinoin and hydroquinone) also raise liver enzymes, and on the infrequent occasions I would take my meds and put on my "pretty creams", I'd feel bad the next day.
"Bad" turned into painful attacks, and now I'm so chemically sensitive I've cut out all extraneous skin preparations (so now I have to be sick AND ugly), herbs, and all meds except thyroid. Now even one abx pill gives me serious pain in the appropriate place.
This has been building very gradually over the years because my first complaint of pain there was in 2005, and I had a sonogram that showed minor gallstones.
Since I have a recent (12/08) cat scan showing the fat deposits in my liver and still minor gallstones(oh, and my GP told me about the fatty enlarged liver it but took no time to recommend any treatment) I know what to expect: docs, if pressed, might treat me for the FLD "horse", but not, in light of such "obvious evidence", test me further for zebras (parasites, etc).
I am scheduled to have an umbilical hernia repair on Monday and am scared to death about how the anesthesia and the naproxen they want me to take the night before will affect my liver. I mentioned my fear to the surgeon repeatedly, but neither he nor the referring GP thought it necessary to send me for a liver function test first.
It's lonely being the only person on my "healthcare team" trying to look out for my liver.
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
No idea if this suggestion would help or not: I did a liver test recently that showed the liver's genetic ability to detox.
It tested for eight enzymes in Phase I and four out of ten enzyme groups in Phase II. My LLMD knows the supplements to treat the dysfunctional liver paths.
The test is called the detoxigenomic liver enzyme test, done through Genova Diagnostics in N Carolina.
The doc said people could contact the lab to see which doctors have ordered it in your area.
Posted by TadichGrill (Member # 19679) on :
Have you been doing regular liver panels while on abx and what are the results of those tests? Can you try acupuncture?
Posted by Sue vG (Member # 3143) on :
Great idea, Robin. I've been away from lymenet for a few years, but I do recall now that my first ND found really blocked detox pathways (metals issues in addition to undiagnosed lyme)and we were working on them when I got my lyme dx and switched to what I thought would be the fast track (abx) solution.
Getting a handle on the condition of those pathways now could be really helpful. Thanks!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
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Micul, great information above - as It's easy to overlook that many infections, themselves, can cause fatty liver damage. Some of the hepatitis strains are one one other example of that.
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Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Sorry you've hit a brick wall.
Have you tried the Glutathione? IV push.
It got me much better and much less toxic.
My liver now quivers so sweetly.
I love it!
Perfect for after surgery too.
Good luck!
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
Sue, just to let you know, the doc had me do a further bloodtest check of current levels of the ones I had tested low in, to get a baseline count prior to starting treatment.
Posted by Sue vG (Member # 3143) on :
TadichGrill, my last liver panel was in 12/08, and it was "fine", though my side ached and I was having liver-GB-and possibly pancreas attacks (searing pain all the way across the top of my stomach). I've used acupuncture with success for other things and I think I will try it for this.
Tincup, I used to get weekly glutathione-ATP shots and they worked wonders, but it seemed like my ruptured lumbar disk would freak out, and I mean to the point that I was bedridden, after many of those shots in the "hip". I had one IV push that didn't seem to do anything, but that might've been because I was so "clean" from the shots at the time. Definitely something to revisit....BUT I have to make sure my pathways are clear enough to handle what the glutathione-induced detox process then releases.
The doc who does those is the one who finally diagnosed my lyme, and would also be the most likely one to test me for for some zebras if I pressed the issue.
Thanks again, all, this is a great review for me. I've been on a 75% plateau for a few years, coasting and not doing the things I've learned to do in the past when I was really sick, so these are all great suggestions.
Posted by TadichGrill (Member # 19679) on :
May you feel better soon.
Posted by micul (Member # 6314) on :
Sue.
It's extremely important to determine the underlying cause of your FLD because if it is babs or even another protozoa, then the best Tx would be attacking the pathogen IMO.
OTOH, if it is purely just a matter of a fatty diet combined with long term drug use, then a rebuilding program would be the best approach. I believe that high dose Vit C IV's (50 to 100 grams) can do wonders for repairing liver damage, and IV Glutathione also.
Another very good product for liver health is Super Milk Thistle from Enzymatic Therapy (tid). Phoscol would be another supplement that I would use tid
Posted by CherylSue (Member # 13077) on :
Freshly cooked artichokes are yummy and good for the liver.
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