(master of science degree)
Posted by nomoremuscles (Member # 9560) on :
You could easily replace the words vitamin C with rocephin or doxycycline or flagyl and tell the same exact three stories.
Just saying.
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
My LLMD says it to take 10,000-15,000 mg of Vit C daily...uh oh!!
Posted by Abxnomore (Member # 18936) on :
High dose IV vitamin C is an excellent anti inflammatory and kills many viruses there by bringing down the viral load that many lymies are
infected with. I did many IV vitamin C drips during my illness and there in no doubt in my mind that they helped me tremendously, particularly before I was diagnosed. In fact, I believe they saved me from more severe damage from the illness.
Anyone who thinks they would not is a fool.
We have many lyme experts all working on pieces of the puzzle but we have no cure yet! Some may achieve a cure after many years of trying different approaches, like I did, but the above post does not sway me at all. Nor do scare tactics.
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
These are anecdotal stories at best. The stories are taken from lymeneteurope where they are very anti holistic. I take 20,000 gms a day of vitamin c and it has been very beneficial in my recovery and boosting my immune system.
My Md Immunologist used to give me IV Vitamin C along with my IVIG. Wonder why you wouldn't have referenced and researched the many reports of the positive sides of Vitamin C.
Gael
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Marnie,
In your post entitled "The magic Five" it speaks of the anti tumor effects of Vitamin C.
Gael
Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecular.org/subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/index.shtml are included. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Antibiotics and Vitamins Work Together (OMNS Dec 3, 2007) The benefits of using vitamin C together with antibiotics are considerable.
In a controlled trial with dairy cows with infected udders, high dose vitamin C has been shown to have synergistic effects when used with antibiotics.
[1] The cows were divided into two groups. One group was treated with antibiotics alone, and the other group was treated with antibiotics and the human equivalent of 10,000 mg/day injections of vitamin C. The vitamin C group got well much sooner: in just over half the time.
In humans, an astoundingly high 120,000 mg/day (nearly 2,000 times the RDA) of vitamin C delivered intravenously has been demonstrated to accelerate healing of burned skin in a blinded clinical trial.
[2] 1,000 to 3,000 mg/day (100 times the RDA) of niacin is a standard treatment for controlling cholesterol. [3] Similar doses of niacin have been demonstrated to reduce inflammation [4] and to reduce injury to the brain after strokes. [5]
Extensive evidence shows that vitamin D serves as an important regulator of immune system responses. [6] Many of these regulatory pathways are optimized when vitamin D is present in the bloodstream at levels considerably higher than average values in the American population. Regular vitamin D supplementation, by taking a daily multivitamin and an additional daily 1,000 IU of vitamin D, is recommended. In addition, a one-time dose of up to 5,000 IU of vitamin D at the onset of a serious bacterial infection should be considered. Physicians now have access to routine tests of vitamin D status. Periodic blood testing is recommended for anyone regularly taking very large amounts of vitamin D.
Physicians managing life-threatening bacterial infections have many options for administering vitamin C and niacin. The simplest is oral supplementation at modest doses of 2,000 to 10,000 mg/day of vitamin C and 100 to 500 mg/day of time-release niacin or "no flush" niacin (inositol hexaniacinate).
Injections can be used to deliver much higher doses directly to the site of infection. For improved at-home management of respiratory infections, extra vitamin C, vitamin D and niacin should be taken along with antibiotics or other prescribed medication.
There are now dozens strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria. They are estimated to kill about 100,000 Americans per year, more than AIDS, breast cancer, and auto accidents combined. High potency vitamin supplementation can prevent many of these deaths and speed recovery.
References:
[1] Naresh, Ram; Dwivedi, S. K.; Swarup, D.; Patra, R. C. Evaluation of ascorbic acid treatment in clinical and subclinical mastitis of Indian dairy cows. Asian-Australasian Journal of Animal Sciences, 2002. 15(6), 905-911. [2] Dubick, Michael A.; Williams, Chad; Elgjo, Geir I.; Kramer, George C. High-dose vitamin C infusion reduces fluid requirements in the resuscitation of burn-injured sheep. Shock, 2005. 24(2), 139-144. [3] Brown, B. Greg. Can niacin slow the development of atherosclerosis in coronary artery disease patients already taking statins? Nature Clinical Practice Cardiovascular Medicine, 2005. 2(5), 234-235. [4] Yu, Bi-lian; Zhao, Shui-ping. Anti-inflammatory effect is an important property of niacin on atherosclerosis beyond its lipid-altering effects. Medical Hypotheses, 2007. 69(1), 90-94. [5] Maynard, Kenneth I. Natural neuroprotectants after stroke. Science & Medicine (Narberth, PA, 2002). 8(5), 258-267. [6] Tavera-Mendoza, L.E. and White, John H. Cell Defenses and the Sunshine Vitamin. Scientific American, November 2007, 62-72.
Nutritional Medicine is Orthomolecular Medicine
Orthomolecular medicine uses safe, effective nutritional therapy to fight illness. For more information: http://www.orthomolecular.org
The peer-reviewed Orthomolecular Medicine News Service is a non-profit and non-commercial informational resource.
Editorial Review Board:
Carolyn Dean, M.D., N.D. Damien Downing, M.D. Harold D. Foster, Ph.D. Steve Hickey, Ph.D. Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D. Thomas Levy, M.D., J.D. Erik Paterson, M.D. Bradford Weeks, M.D.
Andrew W. Saul, Ph.D., Editor and contact person. Email: [email protected] Posted by TerryK (Member # 8552) on :
After reading Tom's info I decided I'd better do some research since I take 3 grams of vit C per day. My LLLMD knows about it as I give him a list of supps everytime I talk to him.
In the research that I found thus far, there is no indication that Vitamin C would interfere with antibiotic treatment in fact it may actually be helpful.
Interesting about the info on the cows that I posted above but also this.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-c-000994.htm Tetracycline -- Some evidence suggests that taking vitamin C with the antibiotic tetracycline may increase the levels of this medication; it may also decrease the effects of vitamin C in the body. Other antibiotics in the same family include minocycline (Minocin) and doxycycline (Vibramycin).
This is what I found to substantiate that claim. It is a dental study with a small group (7 patients) done in 1957. You would think if it really did increase serum levels that this would be widely used??
Not finding much else at the moment but if I do, I'll post it.
Terry
Posted by Buster (Member # 19472) on :
One of my doctors who is strictly a western medicine guy, has just now started doing high dose IV vitamin c on patients with bad viruses and he is tickled to death at how well it works.
He now brags about how he is able to stop colds and flus in their tracks with about 2-3 days worth of high dose IV vitamin c. He is starting to see the light.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Yes Gael...vitamin C is INCLUDED in what I like to call the "magic five" (I can't believe the number of cancers that it impacts!)
We DO need to get the inflammatory cytokines down! TNF alpha and IL 1B ongoing is very very dangerous.
ONGOING nflammation triggers cancer. This is KNOWN.
Combining vitamin C + Green tea...AND restoring "missing" (?) amino acids the "key"?
There is a HUGE difference between IV vitamin C and oral.
HUGE.
Yes...VERY HIGH doses of vitamin C INTRAVENOUSLY administered ALL BY ITSELF for several days HAS cured some very serious infections.
What are "zinc lozenges" made up of to fight colds?
Zn and vitamin C.
Now..."who" has zinc fingers?
Bb.
And what Rx can destroy ALL forms of Bb?
Tritec.
What is it?
Rantinidine bismuth CITRATE.
Where do we get it?
Europe. No "demand" for it here...but made by a U.S. pharm. company.
What is Rantinidine?
Zantac = reduces stomach acids.
Bismuth CITRATE is NOT the same as the bismuth in Pepto Bismol. (Pepto Bismol is bismuth subsalicylate.) There are only these 2 forms of the weird mineral (diamagnetic), bismuth, that can be consumed (SWALLOWED) by humans.
Now...if you think it only works to eliminate Bb from the GI system...look closely at how this drug is eliminated from the system.
It sure as heck looks to enter our circulatory system.
(All drugs work and then are sent on their merry way thru our "detox" organs.
If anyone is willing to try JUST the "magic five" ALONE, PLEASE step forward.
Just give it a couple of weeks...and PLEASE report back.
I would do it in a heartbeat for you all, I'd test it on myself...but I don't have lyme.
Posted by aklnwlf (Member # 5960) on :
Hi there Marnie,
I'm willing to give it a go. I've had treatment (orals and IV) starting in 2004 til 2007.
Off meds since then but still have Bart and possible Lyme symptoms.
Tested positive for Lyme, EBV, Herpes, Mycoplasma and tested for Bart Henslae only.
Currently have ringworm type rash, rash behind ears and around hairline, red pinprick dots, nodules under skin in arms and legs, blurry vision, memory problems, muscle and joint pain (unilateral), broken blood vessels in face, sleep disturbances, etc.
So, sign me up.
I read your other post on the Magic Five and am willing to be a guinea pig.
Don't know how much of each to take so if you can let me know I'll trot on down to the health food store and stock up.
I also started Vytorin this past week for high cholesterol and triglycerides. I remember another post of yours that mentioned statins also having an effect on Lyme.
Let me know what to do from here.
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Thanks for offering, and you can still give it a try, but I don't know if your Rx will throw off the test results i.e., didn't help OR helped a lot when in combination...
We really need someone who is willing to try the five supplements who is also NOT on ANY Rx.
(But I would be curious as to your reaction to the supplements.)
That is the only way we can be sure those supplements ALONE, and not those supplements PLUS something else, is working.
Bb follows the "cholesterol pathway" to build its cell walls (so do we! All of OUR cell walls are made of cholesterol).
Mg inactivates an enzyme called HMG CoA reductase which helps to put the brakes on the cholesterol pathway.
ONE of Bb's outer cell wall proteins (Osp)
***is "lecithin"***.
Lecithin is a *fat emulsifier*.
It is added to chocolate to make it "smooth". It is also in many many other foods.
But, many years ago, someone I met at a party told me he lowered his cholesterol by taking a lot of lecithin (6 capsules) daily. It took about 3 months, but at that time, his cholesterol had dropped 30 pts.
So if Bb is "stealing" our amino acids in lecithin (in addition to much more), does this -> high cholesterol for us?
Now...there is a huge difference in the forms of cholesterol. LDL (low density lipoproteins) is the "Lousy" form. HDL (high density lipoproteins) is the good form. Triglycerides, elevated, are also considered bad.
So a healthy cholesterol level will have more HDL as compared to LDL and tri. The RATIO is more important than the actual numbers according to some researchers.
Hydrogen plays a big part in this as
"Saturated fatty acids have all the hydrogen the carbon atoms can hold."
So saturated fatty acids ALREADY are hydrogen loaded. That isn't good.
Butter is a prime example. However, margarine has its downsides...
When we eat too many saturated fats, OUR HDL (good) is lowered.
According to the above link, normally our LDL level is higher than HDL.
"Low density lipoprotein is the major cholesterol carrier in the blood."
It looks like the carrier protein, LDL transports cholesterol TO the cells -> and another carrier protein, HDL transports it back to the liver.
When my son had food poisoning and one week later an appendectomy followed by abx., his *total* cholesterol dropped to 86 at one point.
Which the doctor said was "great".
Meanwhile, I was freaking. We NEED cholesterol.
A cholesterol level that low is a cancer marker (esp. prostate). Pubmed: low cholesterol prostate cancer.
All of OUR steroid hormones come FROM cholesterol.
We gotta have those steroid hormones!
Later, we discovered his bowel was practically "sterile" (very few good bacteria) and he was unable to ABSORB nutrients that are needed to make cholesterol, to make neurotransmitters, etc.
We gotta have a healthy bowel! Healing starts in the "gut".
The first step to destroy a gram negative pathogen is to destroy its cell wall or prevent it from forming in the first place.
THEN we gotta keep it from rebuilding its cell wall and deal with the CWD organism.
This is step #2 which is impacted by osmotic pressure changes or ultrasound.
I think barometric pressure changes MIGHT also be at play 'cause a LOT of people have "aches and pains" before a storm is approaching.
Mother Nature maybe helping out?
A change in barometric pressure impacts the amt. of oxygen in the air.
When LDL is "oxidized" it becomes "rancid" and it looks to combine with calcium to form a plaque that lines our blood vessels which impacts their ability to dilate and constrict (blood vessels are suppose to be "flexible").
Several months ago, I read the Rx Crestor not only lowered someone's cholesterol level, but also REVERSED the plaque build-up.
Is that plaque a temporary "bandaid" on a damaged blood vessel? Does this slow down the healing process of that vessel?
Complex...oh, yea!
[ 06-02-2009, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posted by jessie86 (Member # 20045) on :
I'm a newbie, so please forgive the question. But whats the Magic five? thanks
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
What doses Marnie?
Posted by jessie86 (Member # 20045) on :
i would be willing to try the supps, as im not doing any abx at this time. heck i've tried tons of stuff for cfs/fibro but not most of the ones specific for Lyme
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
I do NOT know the doses.
If I had access to the full articles in the various cancer links, I'd have a better idea of how much, how often.
Start slow...follow bottle directions and then if it looks to work, you could consider ramping up (once a day to twice a day sorta thing).
But I'm "gutsy"...you each have to decide what to do...
Impact of ascorbic acid + available zinc and Mn (both of which Bb uses i.e., temporarily depletes):
"Zinc and manganese with vitamin C remove copper from the tissues. Copper destroys histamine and therefore as copper levels decrease, histamine levels should return towards normal."
If we are zinc deficient because Bb is taking it from us (temporarily...until it is destroyed)...this would raise Cu levels to toxic.
Because Cu and Zn have to be in balance. If one is up, the other goes down...
"The ascorbic acid, zinc, and copper levels in the plasma of children with
***protein-energy malnutrition*** (I think this applies to lyme too),
asthma and sickle cell disease were determined.
Children with malnutrition had low values of zinc and copper,
those with asthma (my daughter = low lysine) had low plasma copper and scorbic acid
while those with sickle cell disease had low ascorbic acid and zinc levels.
The use of these trace elements particularly vitamin C and zinc in the management of children with malnutrition and sickle cell disease in our environment would seem justified and should thus be given serious consideration."
1. We gotta tame down our inflammatory cytokines (TNF alpha AND IL1B)
While
2. Hitting Bb with other therapies
Romania did this:
MgCl IV and abx IV
A doc here says this:
Pycnogenol and HBO
Germany:
MgCl IV + far infrared +
It sure as heck looks to involve 2 things:
Tame down the immune system (ascorbic acid and green tea extract)
PLUS restore essential amino acids needed to "fight" (which Bb is depleting)?
Could it possibly be that just 5 "cheap" nutrients can work as well as (and safer than) all the other therapies?
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
I pray so Marnie. Millions would be grateful to you I'm sure!