I have been tested twice through a lab in CA...both were in 2006, 6 months apart. I know noone here is a doctor, but I'd love to hear some input if you think I might have lyme. I'll just put the positive and IND bands.
Jan. 2006:
23-25: IND 31: IND 39: IND 41: ++
July 2006:
30: ++ 39: IND 41: IND
Any thoughts?
Thank you.
[ 10-02-2009, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: bschao ]
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Quite possible!!!
Bands 31 and 39 are VERY Lyme specific and IND is a weak positive. OH, I didn't see the 23-25 .. that is also Lyme specific...nothing else could have caused it to show up. Also the 30. If you'll move those down with the other bands, it will be easier for us to see. ( or I'm just blind! )
from Dr C's WB explanation:
"Many would say the " +/-" equivocal ["IND"] bands are not significant. The problem I have with that, is that there are "-" negative bands. The lab has no trouble calling some bands negative. So they must be seeing something when they put "+/-" at some bands.
The only thing that makes sense, is that there is a little bit of that antibody present in your serum. If the "+/-" equivocal is reported on the borrelia associated bands, it is usually significant, in my clinical experience. This is a strong clue that I am on the right track."
Be sure to print it out and read it several times!!
More from the above link:
The following is a brief explanation of the test results. Again, each band is an antigen complexed (bound together) with an antibody made by the immune system, specifically for that antigen (part) of Borrelia burgdorferi.
18: An outer surface protein.
22: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein C.
23-25: Outer surface protein C (osp C).
28: An outer surface protein.
30: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein A.
31: Outer surface protein A (osp A). 34: Outer surface protein B (osp B).
37: Unknown, but it is in the medical literature that it is a borrelia-associated antibody. Other labs consider it significant.
39: Unknown what this antigen is, but based on research at the National Institute of Health (NIH), other Borrelia (such as Borrelia recurrentis that causes relapsing fever), do not even have the genetics to code for the 39 kDa antigen, much less produce it. It is the most specific antibody for borreliosis of all.
41: Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria have flagella. This is the most common borreliosis antibody.
45: Heat shock protein. This helps the bacteria survive fever. The only bacteria in the world that does not have heat shock proteins is Treponema pallidum, the cause of syphilis.
58: Heat shock protein.
66: Heat shock protein. This is the second most common borrelia antibody.
73: Heat shock protein.
83: This is the DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi. It is the same thing as the 93, based upon the medical literature. But laboratories vary in assigning significance to the 83 versus the 93.
93: The DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi.
In my clinical experience, if a patient has symptoms suspicious for borreliosis, and has one or more of the following bands, there is a very high probability the patient has borreliosis.
These bands are 18, 22, 23-25, 28, 30, 31, 34, 37, 39, 41, 83, and 93.
( Dr C )
Welcome to Lymenet! Posted by bschao (Member # 22371) on :
Thank you Lymetoo. Boy, I just wish there was an easy bloodtest for this disease. I could have it, or could not have it. Whichever doctor I choose, I sure hope he/she knows what they are talking about. I'd really hate to get diagnosed with something I don't have ya know?
Thanks!
Posted by Melodymaker (Member # 16434) on :
bschao, Lyme is a clinical diagnosis. If I had the test results you have, it would be enough to convince me for sure that I have Lyme.
Have you done any reading about how the Lyme spirochete changes form to elude your immune system, and therefore you stop making the antibodies they look for with the test. Then changes form again if you take abx.
My Infectious Disease Specialist told me my test results would be negative before they even drew the labs.
First because I've had this 25 years, and second because I've been on antibiotics in the past.
From all the reading I've done, often the seriously ill patients test negative simply because their immune systems are no longer fighting it and aren't producing the antibodies.
I researched Lyme symptoms, and then found the progression of the disease. That is what convinced me I had Lyme.
Knowledge is power. It's worth the time to educate yourself so you can make wise decision.
Keeping you in prayer for a clear direction!
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
I agree. Band 31 is the material that was used to make the vaccine. Hope you find a good LLMD to treat. Prayers.
Posted by bschao (Member # 22371) on :
Thank you for all of the replies. I am doing quite a bit of research to understand this disease as much as I can....lots of info. out there.
Thanks.
Posted by bschao (Member # 22371) on :
Any other thoughts on my past test results?
Thank you so much.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Be sure to post in Seeking a Doctor so you can begin your search for a good LLMD. Your options are limited in AZ.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote: [QB] Any other thoughts on my past test results?
Thank you so much.
Putting this below my reply!
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
I am sorry it has taken you so long to figure out. I do hope you seek a LLMD.
Posted by timaca (Member # 6911) on :
Sorry, I don't think you have enough positive bands to suggest a lyme diagnosis. You have band 41 (which everyone has) and band 30. One band is not enough to qualify for a lyme diagnosis. (Dr. F at Columbia does not consider IND bands as positive).
Going with a "clinical diagnosis" for lyme is dangerous. Lots of other problems can cause the same symptoms, including, but not limited to Vitamin D deficiency, B12 deficiency, celiac disease and chronic viral infections (HHV-6, EBV, enterovirus, etc).
You need to have a thorough work up for all non infectious causes for your health problems. Then consider infectious causes. If you do a search using my member number and "viral testing" you will find some info.
Best, Timaca
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
Go get tested for СPN - major labs do it , if you positive on it treatment for it is essentialy same as lyme
Posted by bschao (Member # 22371) on :
Thanks for the replies. It's hard to hear from one person..."I really think you have lyme"..then from others "I don't think you have lyme" I know everyone has their own opinions, but it still gets frustrating.
Thanks, Sherrie
Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
I think Igenex get IND cause they look harder. Maybe look at it with magnification. I don't know
but I do believe the IND are there for a reason just most labs don't try as hard, maybe. Only rely
on what they can see with normal sight? Whatever if you are not happy with what a LLMD says I would
take antibiotics for 4 weeks, go off for 10-14 days and retest. For me I have seen enough to
treat and you can do both.
Posted by coltman (Member # 21272) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pinelady: I think Igenex get IND cause they look harder. Maybe look at it with magnification. I don't know
Have you seen how WB looks like? - it is a stain. Various degree of staining indicate amount present. Quest etc only report with shades over certain threshold of darkness, igenex apparently reports the less dark stained ones as IND
And 0 - means white. No staining. Difference is igenex will report 0 as 0, while quest will report less than cdc/idsa accepted staining as 0
Posted by bschao (Member # 22371) on :
Well, I have an appt. with Dr. F in AZ on Oct. 16th - he has his own laboratory right there so we'll see what comes out of that appt.
Thanks, Sherrie Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Good job, Sherrie.
About the disagreement on diagnosis. We have people who found out they had something besides lyme and they come here to warn others. Take it with a grain of salt.
Viral testing is always a good option though. Lyme and viruses go hand in hand.
Posted by ChuckG (Member # 19093) on :
IGeneX reports no band as " - ". IND means, and it is so stated on their results form, that a band was seen but the intensity is less than what they define as "Weak ( 1 + ) Positive Control".
The strength of the "Positive Control" can vary. If a kit is used, the manufacturer controls the Positive Control. IGeneX has their own Positive Control. I researched this a year or so ago and had a list of kit manufacturers and who used what. Old and tired so ain't going to search for it now.
The strain or strains of Bb used for the Positive Control versus your strain play a part in the strength of a band, if any, when you are tested.
If you want to look at a great example of WB bands (from Northern California ticks with Bb) with lots of INDs download this PDF. Print it. Examine FIG. 1. Note that only 2 of 13 samples have a Positive 39 kDa. Two may be Negative. Leaving 9 as IND. Yet! 39 kDa is Bb specific!
quote: Characterization of Borrelia burgdorferi strains isolated from Ixodes pacificus ticks in ... ML Bissett, W Hill - Journal of Clinical Microbiology, 1987 - Am Soc Microbiol ... MARJORIE L. BISSETT* AND WARREN HILL Microbial Diseases Laboratory, California Department of Health Services, Berkeley, California 94704 ...
Download pdf Posted by Pinelady (Member # 18524) on :
I agree with the viral testing. Many have found them to surface only after treating the Bb. Because immune system is depressed. Which may be the best time to test for them.
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