Read the red writing on this vid and listen to the amazing interview by John Coffin, Professor of Molecular Biology and Microbiology, Tufts University, Boston, USA
Particularly listen from 01:51, 04:04 and 06:54 minutes in.
The tick and XMRV connection with mice is described further below together with the recent XMRV discovery by Dr Judy Mikovits, director of research at the Whittemore Peterson Institute in Reno, Nevada.
The retroviruses identified in patients with CFS or prostate cancer are highly related (more than 90% DNA sequence identity)to a group of viruses of wild and laboratory mice called xenotropic murine leukemia virus.
Xenotropic MLVs are endogenous retroviruses of mice - the viral DNA is integrated into the mouse genome.
Mice produce low levels of the virus - a few infectious viruses per milliliter of blood - but the virus cannot reinfect mouse tissues (hence the name `xenotropic', meaning a virus that can grow in species other than that of its origin).
Why wouldn't any of the other infections cause fatigue? Certainly Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, and other viruses like CMV, etc...can cause fatigue.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Thanks for all those links. Many here have not even been evaluated for other stealth infections such as mycoplasma, Cpn, HHV-6, etc. so I hope the new light on XMRV will open the door for a more careful look at the whole mix.
However, Lyme, even alone, can create enormous fatigue. Any infection can. Adding to it with even one other infection, of course, amplifies it to the max.
As any infection adds toxins and stresses the adrenals, the heart, the brain, the inner ear, the liver - I don't see how it is that most doctors don't see the toll that results in profound fatigue connection.
True, though, that if XMRV (or any other chronic stealth infection) were to be dx and treated that could lessen the load. -
Posted by peter j (Member # 11825) on :
Great post PV. I have thought the thought many times.
Posted by JamesNYC (Member # 15793) on :
I do not understand how a tick can get lyme from a host since ticks eat blood, and lyme is a tissue disease and not blood borne. (Hence the difficulty with testing for it).
So, this gives some support to the idea that XMRV could be found in ticks. I wonder if they're looking for it.
But let's REMEMBER, there is a long way to go before XMRV is proven, to play a role in CFS.
James
Posted by sutherngrl (Member # 16270) on :
The tick gets lyme from deer. The deer does not get sick from lyme, they are immune to it; also the bacteria stays in their blood and does not penetrate into their tissues, organs, etc. Since it stays in their blood it is easy for the tick to get LD from the deer. This is what my LLMD told me.
Posted by JamesNYC (Member # 15793) on :
sutherngrl,
The main vector for the Deer tick is not deer, but the white-footed deer MOUSE. "Deer tick" is kind of a misnomer.
But the spirochetes existing in animal blood instead of tissue is odd. Why would it penetrate tissue in humans but not other mammals? I'll have to research this more.
Also, how does it get the co-infections? I thought that much of what the carry is from the dirt environment they live in.
Yes, I'll have to look into this more.
Thanks.
Posted by sutherngrl (Member # 16270) on :
James, I'm no expert, but maybe the mouse got it from the tick that came from the deer originally.
All I know is what my doc told me and he has researched this stuff for 30 years. And so has a man at Miss State Univ.
Where I live in Miss, there are literally deer running around in our town square, and the cases of LD are rising around here like crazy; even though the CDC says its not.
Would be interesting to know more about all of this, the co's and such.
Posted by JamesNYC (Member # 15793) on :
Suthergrl,
I think deer get a bad rap about this. The deer population has little to do with the deer tick population. They've wiped out deer in some areas and found the ticks keep on propagating since they will munch on anything with blood, EVEN LIZARDS!
I don't think there is an increase in deer ticks. It's really an increase of cases of lyme which suggests either more ticks carrying lyme, or more people getting bit by ticks. (I still can't believe I got bit by 2 this weekend!)
This is probably a by-product of climate change. The winters don't get cold enough to kill off many of the insects, mice, and other creatures anymore. Colorado is losing vast acres of forest because it doesn't get cold enough to kill the pine beetle (needs to be -40�).
Posted by disturbedme (Member # 12346) on :
quote:The tick gets lyme from deer.
Not totally correct. The ticks actually first feed on mice, which is where they get lyme and co-infections and other yuckies from... but yes, the deer are also obviously very much infected as well.
Posted by PV (Member # 20436) on :
Hi All thanks for posting your views.
I was trying to figure out if a mouse (which is now noted to carry yet another infectious microorganism XMRV/MLV) could pass this on to us via a tick - possibly the same tick that infected us with Lyme in the first place?
Myco mentioned the 'soup' of infection that a tick carries (Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella, Mycoplasma etc) which I would say will vary depending on how the tick has been infected. Some may only carry borrelia maybe. Some I believe with many more microorganisms that we don't yet know about. One being possibly XMRV/MLV.
These organisms are so small it's virtually incomprehensible for me. Borrelia spirochete for instance (a self contained living bacteria) is 0.3 microns wide. That's take 1mm and divide it by 1000 and then take a third of that - that is the width of it! Minute.
Visit this page and then press the blue right arrow key to zoom in to a pin head platform! A great demonstration of what we are dealing with size wise. E.Coli I believe is a similar width to borrelia. This is the two green objects seen at two micrometers.
"Increased risk of exposure to this disease is expected because of the role of the white-footed mouse as the principal natural reservoir of the Lyme bacterium, Borrelia burgdorferi. Blacklegged ticks ( Ixodes scapularis ) feeding on mice have a higher probability of becoming infected with the bacterium than do ticks feeding on any other host species." http://www.citeulike.org/user/neteler/article/5439587
Semifinal thought this... 1. Yes most infections have given us fatigue, but is the lasting/sustaining and most prevalent fatigue caused by XMRV (CFS) which we caught at the same time as borrelia via a tick infected from a mouse???
2. Why is the fatigue usually the last and hardest thing to cure in Lyme? Is it actually CFS as part of the Lyme infection???
Look forward to your views on this. Thanks to all that replied earlier, very interesting.
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
its not "THE CAUSE" its " one possible cause of fatigue, there are many.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I think babesia caused the worst fatigue for me.
PV said,
"I was trying to figure out if a mouse........ could pass this on to us via a tick - possibly the same tick that infected us with Lyme in the first place?"
I don't see why it couldn't??? There have been people here who said they think they got Lyme because they had mice in their houses. Not sure how the infection got to them.... but makes you wonder.
Posted by D Bergy (Member # 9984) on :
In my region, there are more Deer Ticks than in the past. I had never seen a Deer Tick in my life until about six years ago. I have seen many since.
They were in very small numbers until the nineties, and this does correspond to an increased Deer population. That does not mean that Deer were the cause, but it certainly does mean they are a possible cause for the increase.
When we moved to our new house, there were lots of Deer Ticks. There also were lots of Mice in the area, as indicated by the sheer number my Cats were killing each night. (They leave them on he front steps). There area also lots of Deer around.
I think both Mice and Deer have contributed to the increase, but that is a guess.
XMRV is not exactly a rare virus. You could have had it prior to Lyme infection and may have got it after, or may not have it at all.
I have treated myself for it using a Rife type device. I do not have Lyme, but have Crohn's which would explain the immune dysfunction involved with this disease.
I have noticed that my intestinal tract works differently than before treatment. No other indication of any change. I am not even sure this was a direct result of the treatment, but it is the only thing I have done, and I can't explain the difference unless it is coincidence.
I do not even know if I had the virus, but there was no risk in treating for it this way, so I did.
Dan
Posted by Lymeorsomething (Member # 16359) on :
Let's not go too crazy just yet with XMRV until we have more info. Many systemic chronic infections can manifest with fatigue. I'm not sure lyme needs any help with causing fatigue.
It's fascinating that we have new information about this virus, but we've seen viruses implicated in CFS-like conditions before and not all have panned out as expected.
In my case, most of the diagnostic and clinical evidence points toward lyme as the central suspect.
Posted by PV (Member # 20436) on :
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