i am still reading about c. diff and it's causes, treatments, symptoms, etc.
in one article it said that massive dosages of probiotics in critically ill or immuno-compromised individuals can cause death.
what? i thought probiotics were used to replenish the bacteria in the intestines that the abx killed.
the article did not go into detail about the deaths, studies, etc., but i am curious.
how could probiotics cause death? and could taking too much be bad?
i know i have diahrrea right now and abdominal pain still but i'm not sure it's the probiotics. my gastro said to take the florastor twice a day, ok.
but i'm also taking jarro, critical care, and phillips care.
so yep i'm taking a lot.
but i figure my dang colon is so damaged they couldn't hurt, right?
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
randibear, I don't know the answer to your question. Sorry you are suffering so much with you colon. I do too but for different reasons.
Do you happen to have a link to that article you mentioned? Curious to read more about it.
Praying things get better for you.
Gary
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
Maybe some psyillium... clean that colon out : )
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Randi,
Could you please post the link to that article? I'd like to see how that was phrased and who wrote it. I have lots of questions and really doubt that probiotics could cause death. The LACK of probiotics can cause death.
But, to be sure of the context, it would be good to see the original text of the author you paraphrased.
I have read that Saccharomyces boulardii (if introduced into the lungs of immuno-compromised patients) can cause severe problems. But that has been with inadequate measures regarding air-borne instances in hospital settings, not a capsule swallowed. PubMed details that.
Saccharomyces boulardii (as in Florastor) is not necessarily a typical probiotic although it has similar action.
Still, I'd love to see the original article as it's good to learn all about this statement and more about who said it.
From all I've read, though, NOT having adequate probiotics is much more likely to be fatal, just not necessarily immediately.
Still, we can only take so much at one time. If taken to the point of loose bowels, it's best to back down on the dose / frequency.
-
[ 01-17-2010, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
dang, i was just playing around with the web and i read it in an article. i've been trying to find it and now i can't.
i'm sorry, i'll keep looking and see if i can find anything on it.
there was mention of something at about.com alternative medicine, but it's not the same article.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Randi,
You can look back at your "History" and see the sites you've been to for today - or for the past several days.
I appreciate your looking as when a statement of such magnitude is passed on in a post, it really helps to know the source and context.
Thanks so much for looking through your history. -
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
hon, i'm still looking. i was searching "can probiotics stop c. diff" and "can probiotics cause death" and "c. diff message board".
i called up the screen and just starting going into every site listed.
i am sooooo bad at computers.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
maybe if some quack from IDSA was selling probiotics full of E coli or salmonella... I mean technically those could still be probiotics and they could kill you.
Posted by merrygirl (Member # 12041) on :
one of my well respected llmd's said that too much of s. bouldari can cause problems.
this was several years ago, but I think he said it can cause plaques on your heart valves like an endocarditis.
Posted by kadee (Member # 21199) on :
quote: We found that probiotics are safe for use in otherwise healthy persons, but should be used with caution in some persons because of the risk of sepsis.
Randi.. Did your gastro tell you to take that many probiotics? Does he know exactly how much you are taking?
I think you CAN overdo it with them. I'm sure death would be an extremely rare thing... and it sounds like the s.boulardi is more likely to do that than any other.
and the key was "critically ill or immuno-compromised individuals."
Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
Wow, this is very interesting. This is the one supplement I have been sure to take everyday and lots of it.
If Spring Showers is out there check this out:
The presence of a central venous catheter is also a common finding in cases of probiotic sepsis and has been shown to be a possible source of sepsis.
Yikes. I have a central line.
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
Breathing causes cancer
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Haley,
Do you have the link for that? If you have a chance, we'd appreciate your posting that - or at least the title and author. Thanks.
It really helps when posting any excerpt (and especially one that can be alarming) to be able to link to the original work so as to identify the author and to understand the full context and circumstances involved.
And Haleys quote is from my first link.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Thanks. I wonder if the feeding tube changes things. And what else is in the feeding tube with the probiotics. That could change things, too.
So many questions. -
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Where's randi?? Gone to bed?? Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
oops sorry Keebler.
Yes, it's the first link posted by Kadee.
I am going to do more research on this subject.
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
They are likely talking about an overdose of s.boulardi (Florastor) that can in rare cases cause a systemic fungal infection.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
yeah, guys, i was beat yesterday. the stomach er colon pain never lets up so i went to bed about 8.
i searched this dang web for hours and i couldn't find that paragraph. it was in another article i was reading.
hey, i'm doing good to be able to post to this board. computer literate, i ain't.
i'm sorry if i alarmed anyone about this and i'll keep trying to find something on it.
my doc said to take two florastor, one in morning and one a night. so i'm cutting back to just those.
i am concerned about systemic yeast cause ya'll know my mom had it. she had been in the hospital for five months and on abx most of that time.
they never gave her diflucan or anything for yeast. it was so bad they said her throat was closed and they couldn't get feeding tubes in or anything. it was in her lungs and they operated to put a filter in. it was very very bad.
so that's why i'm freaking out.
hmm, i wonder how long i'll have to stay on this florastor.
Posted by pryorka (Member # 13649) on :
We have to keep in mind this is coming from The Times, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch, the same guy that runs all the republican propoganda like Fox News and such. They get a large part of their revenue from pharma, insurance companies and pretty much anyone AMA associated so it's in their best interests to smear anything and everything that can't be patented for a profit. The times also smears organic foods, anyone against vaccines, and pretty much anything that would cause a loss of profit for them. A lot of papers like that actually print articles submitted to them by Pharma companies and special interests, so I would take anything coming from them as a calculated rumor.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: [QB] Randi.. Did your gastro tell you to take that many probiotics? Does he know exactly how much you are taking?
??
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
uh, i thought i answered this. no, he didn't. so i cut back to only florastor.
yeah, i know, i know...
Posted by tickalert (Member # 7033) on :
Every thing now days has a warning label...even hot coffee?
If your conceredn then call your Dr. to address this issue.
Posted by Vermont_Lymie (Member # 9780) on :
quote:Originally posted by WildCondor: They are likely talking about an overdose of s.boulardi (Florastor) that can in rare cases cause a systemic fungal infection.
Agreed.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
solet me see about this. there is a possibility of florastor causing a yeast infection.
but if you're on abx then that's killing yeast, right? so how could you get a yeast infection of you're taking abx at the same time? or is this forastor a different kind of yeast than the kind they're talking about?
lol...does that make sense?
Posted by tonysgirl (Member # 11202) on :
I think there's a possibility of a build up of lactobicillus. Too much of the good bacteria. I have learned that some women have this problem vaginally.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- randibear asked:
" . . . but if you're on abx then that's killing yeast, right? so how could you get a yeast infection of you're taking abx at the same time?" end quote
---
Antibiotics do not kill yeast. Quite the opposite, antibiotics CAUSE yeast infections to flourish.
Candida is not the only yeast infection that can be a result of antibiotics destroying the natural probiotics that our body requires.
Such fungal infections can cause a tremendous amount of body pain (similar, if not the same thing at times, to fibromyalgia), brain fog, depression, anxiety, insomnia, etc.
We all know that c. diff can be deadly if left unchecked. That's another whole topic with specifics beyond this post. But, clearly, Saccharomyces boulardii can saves lives where c. diff is concerned - mostly as a preventative but, again . . . that's another whole series of books, lectures, etc.
Back to the general question of probiotics and yeast infection s . . .
Candida, itself, is nothing to sneeze at. Candida can become systemic (all though the body), even getting into the brain - and even become fatal -- as can other fungal infections that thrive as a result of abx w/o proper protection from probiotic & specific other anti-fungal measures when required.
In addition to probiotics, Olive Leaf Extract has worked exceedingly well for me for the times I've been on abx - but together with probiotics.
Probiotics are not always enough protection during times of heavy abx use or when other fungal infections are blossoming. Anti-fungal methods are also essential, whether from a plant source or a pharmacy (but, then, those can also stress the liver so liver protection is a must).
Clearly, with correct use, probiotics can save lives. Is this a subject worth studying? Sure. But, as with all things, don't fear from one or two obscure cases. Find out the specifics involved - all the mitigating factors - and consider that in the larger body of research. I have several questions to study from the links above - we do have much to learn from apparent failures.
Yet, very clearly, there are many more instances of probiotic use saving lives than the other way around. But, again, a thorough knowledge is our best protection.
And, oh, we also need prebiotics to feed the probiotics (that's what might have been missing in some cases) . . . it's a whole different world in there.
Also to consider, even "natural antibiotics" such as allicin or OLE (Olive Leaf Extract), Berberis, etc. also require adding back in good probiotics as these can destroy the natural flora just as synthetic/pharmaceutical abx.
This is because, in addition to an abx property, these plant sources are also anti-fungal, so they will even destroy the good bacteria in our bodies and we need to replenish that with the right source and balance of prebiotics and probiotics.
It's all about balance and, hopefully, having very wise doctors to guide us.
==========
And, going back to what pryorka said - the SOURCE of the information is to be considered. Rupert Murdoch would sell his mother to sell papers. Anything he publishes is not considered reliable and his style is to excite rather than to inform.
He promotes fear in order to sell papers (I cannot even call them news papers). And just because a show has a "news" format and is on TV does not mean they adhere to proper journalistic ethics and standards.
Still, were I to have time and energy, it would be interesting to get the bottom of the cases reported. I think there would be much to learn but I won't let isolated headlines slosh a bucket of fear into my cup of yogurt.
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