Have you gotten rid of babs without mepron? I took mepron with zith and also with biaxin and artemisinin for 7 months. It didn't work.
I need a different treatment. I also have c diff so that complicates things, but just post what ever you used so I can discuss the choices eith my LLMD.
I got rid of it with bactrim and rifampin but it came back and now I can't take bactrim.
thanks
Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
HI Blinkie,
I'm sorry I don't have any suggestions. I currently am on Mepron and Zith.
I'm curious - do you have a positive test for Babs? Also, what are your symptoms?
I am treating Babs and I feel that it addresses my brain fog but I don't have a positive test.
Why can't you take bactrim? Did you have an allergic reaction.
I'm sorry you are going through this.
Posted by blinkie (Member # 14470) on :
Thanks, Haley. I don't hav a positive test, but I have significant symptom improvement with artemisinin alone, which to me, says babs.
I have night sweats and breathing difficulties and fatigue. All classic babs symptoms.
I was only tested for microti and I think I have WA-1.
Can't take bactrim due to c diff. Although, I'm considering risking it once again.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
My problem is that a lot of things for babs I take seem to "touch" the babesia, but then the day after I stop the drug, I get night sweats.
So it's like nothing will seal the deal and actually make the infection go away. Though I realize it won't completely go away....
But anyways, should I just be okay with the fact that once I stop the med, I'll get sweats while I'm getting used to not being on the med? To me, that doesn't seem right.
So if getting sweats after stopping the med or herb is a bad thing, I haven't found anything that will get rid of my babs.
And I did test positive for duncani, and also on the Igenex FISH.
I am thinking of trying Lariam. After that, I might just give up, because I can't really tell if it's causing my main symptoms anyways.
Posted by blinkie (Member # 14470) on :
Hoosier, have you tried bactrim DS?
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Since zith gives me hives, my lyme doc said the only other way to get rid of babs was Bactrim DS.
It worked for me.
He said that if I were to develop an allergy to Bactrim, there would be no way left to treat me for babs.
So, I think that answers your question. Zith (with some other med--usually Mepron or Malarone, but maybe others also, don't know) and Bactrim DS. Those are the 2 drugs. (Biaxin is closely related to zith, so it can substitute. I can't take Biaxin either.)
Rather than say that Mepron and zith and artemesinin didn't work, you need to say that the amounts that you took and how you took it didn't work.
From p. 24 of Burrascano:
"Treatment failures usually are related to inadequate atovaquone levels. Therefore, patients who are not cured with this regimen can be retreated with higher doses (and atovaquone blood levels can be checked), as this has proven effective in many of my patients."
The lyme doc I send my friends to checks Mepron levels for everyone. Maybe that was not done in your case.
Posted by blinkie (Member # 14470) on :
TF- I did take 2 tsp of mepron twice daily. I thought that should be sufficient.
How long did you take bactrim or, how long does your LLMD say it should be taken?
Posted by blinkie (Member # 14470) on :
TF- I did take 2 tsp of mepron twice daily. I thought that should be sufficient.
How long did you take bactrim or, how long does your LLMD say it should be taken?
When I took it, I was 100% well withing three weeks. Stayed on it two months. Once I stopped, symptoms came back in three weeks.
I didn't take art with it and wonder if that could be the key with bactrim?
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
Yes, I am on Bactrim DS now. I have taken it with and without a macrolide (Biaxin, Zith).
The Bactrim seems to be extremely effective for me against Bartonella henselae (at least, that is what I think it was killing...tested positive for bart h. as well), but it doesn't seem to have much of an effect on my babesia.
So far, for babesia I have tried: Mepron/Zith/artemisinin, Malarone/Zith, Quinine/Clindamycin, Alinia, Enula, cryptolepsis, Crypto-Plus.
I question whether Bactrim DS works against babesia duncani, becauase it doesn't do anything to my babs symptoms, whereas some of the other meds do. Maybe it works against microti, I don't know.
I don't have babesia symptoms everyday, unless my fatigue is babs. So I seem to have perhaps partially knocked it out.
The only reason we thought to treat it was because I tested positive. I was never one with lots of air hunger, or sweats every night.
I can remember having drenching night sweats on occasion before treating babesia, and I also had bad balance, and lots of headaches. I no longer have those last two symptoms.
Some of those symptoms have gotten better over the course of treatment. So maybe all the babesia treatment did me some good.
But I still have occasional night sweats and nightmares, so I know it is still there.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
blinkie, you say..."when I took it, I was 100% well within 3 weeks."
Are you talking about Mepron or Bactrim?
Posted by tick battler (Member # 21113) on :
The homeopathic practitioner that I go to for electrodermal testing swears by grapefruit seed extract. 10 drops in juice or water twice daily. I have had my kids on this for a couple of months along with cryptolepsis (just to be sure). Their testing on the electrodermal machine says it is going away. They also seem to have fewer symptoms. They are certainly not getting worse!
They tried Mepron/zith/art for a year without getting rid of it. Still positive tests.
[edited to add: My kids were also on Bactrim for a year with the mepron/zith and it helped their bart but did not help their babesia.]
tickbattler
[ 05-17-2010, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: tick battler ]
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Above is a specifically mixed herbal compound for small parasites. Has worked well for me for Babs.
Your doc can get it for you.
Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
Massman - how long did you take it and what dosage did you take.
Blinkie - You may want to look into crypto-plus. I know that it does wonders for some people. It does have Lomatium in it. Some people can break out in a significant rash (like I did). Some people have very good results with this.
Posted by Amanda (Member # 14107) on :
I am finding Larium is working better for me than the Mepron/zith did. Larium is not an antibiotic, so maybe that is better for your gut, I don't know.
Took Mepron/zith for 26 months, and for last year was taking 1 Tble 2 x a day. Although initially it seemed to help, I started backsliding.
Posted by Haley (Member # 22008) on :
Wow Amanda. That's a long time. It seems that many people are posting that Mepron didn't work for them.
Is there anyone out there that had success with Mepron?
My LLNP mentioned Larium. Isn't it a very potent drug? I don't know anything about it. The NP did say that sometimes that insurance won't cover it.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
I took Mepron, Malarone, Lariam, artemisia (not all together!!) for close to two years.
I still had babesia when I went to Germany for Bionic 880 treatment. The Lyme cleared in Germany. When I got home, I started drinking tonic water because it would help with babesia symptoms (remember, my Lyme was gone, so I was no longer disabled by the disease).
After another 9 months I got Babs and bart into remission with the Bionic treatment. Previously, I never could get off babs meds.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
blinkie, you must take art with the Bactrim, just like with Mepron and zith.
Regarding the mepron, you have to check blood levels. You can't go by how much of the med you are taking. If the blood levels are too low, you will not get well. You have to take enough to get to the adequate blood level.
Other things can affect Mepron absorption, so the blood level is the key. The lyme doc who has gotten rid of babs for all my friends tests their blood levels like Burrascano says.
Regarding Bactrim DS, my doc says you have to take it twice as long as Mepron/zith in order to get well. I took it for nearly a year. I was symptom-free the last 5 months. I got symptom-free as winter approached, and my doc won't let anyone stop meds if it is winter or winter is coming on. So, that's why I had to stay on it for so long after symptom-free.
Two months is not nearly long enough to clear babs. Since the minimum for Mepron/zith is 4 months, double that for the minimum for Bactrim DS. And, be sure to pulse art with it.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
There was a whole thread on this subject about a few weeks or a month ago. You may want to do a search. There are many things to try.
Some people do well with the Raintree products. I think there's a couple of anti parasite products. I haven't tried them, though.
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
So many freaked out the last time I posted about this. I took 2 caps per day for almost 3 weeks.
Saw many red specks in urine I saved. Could have been flecks of red blood cells, as that is where babs live.
A lot of the symptoms went away. Had bee planning on doing it again but am off everything as am preparing for a major surgery.
All the howling here was from many who were taking drugs for babs for very long times. Many screamed what I said was a scam to sell the Inno-Vita product. I was a bit stunned, as the focus was not "let's learn more" but it was on paranoia.
I guess that many nowadays concentrate their lives on thinking the entire world is out to scam them.
So anyway, that has been my experience so far. __________________________________________ So of course now I post a disclaimer that I get nothing for recommending these or any other brands of supplements.
Posted by blinkie (Member # 14470) on :
Hoosier-it was bactrim and rifampin that got me 100% well in three weeks. This was of course, after treating lyme and babs previously for over a year, so the levels were already knocked down.
I can't imagine I still have bart. I did IM gentamicin and doxy as well as three months of IV rifampin and IV levaquin. My symptoms are classic bart.
I keep seeing some lyme docs are saying bactrim treats babs. My LLMD doesn't think so, but I guess no one really knows.
I'm going to look into larium and try that first, I think.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
Yep. I never touched the yellow paint once. I took tons of clindamycin/quinine and finished things off with artemisinin and zith.
PS.. Took Bactrim too... didn't know it helped babesia.
Posted by WildCondor (Member # 434) on :
Have you tried the herbal protocols? Enula?
Posted by ott70 (Member # 18237) on :
quote:Originally posted by massman: So many freaked out the last time I posted about this. I took 2 caps per day for almost 3 weeks.
Saw many red specks in urine I saved. Could have been flecks of red blood cells, as that is where babs live.
All the howling here was from many who were taking drugs for babs for very long times. Many screamed what I said was a scam to sell the Inno-Vita product. I was a bit stunned, as the focus was not "let's learn more" but it was on paranoia.
Well, I appreciate the info. I'm not convinced Mepron is taking me over the hump and I'm all for taking something more natural.
Posted by ott70 (Member # 18237) on :
Massman,
I guess a question. How did you know to take that formula or who turned you onto it. I see a lot of these herbal mixtures for parasites and such, and I can't but think they are all similar in design.
Just looking for that one special product that I can feel is the right one to take. Noni and Cumunda have been alright for me, but I don't think they are potent enough.
Is the Inno-Vita blend one of those that you take for a few weeks and then stop for a few weeks to avoid any resistance buildup from the bugs?
Thanks.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
ott70,
Enula is also pretty good, but I think at a certain point, you're supposed to pulse it 12 1/2 days on, then 12 1/2 days of something else, then back to Enula, etc.
My babs does respond to Enula, it just hasn't completely gotten rid of it.
Artemisinin is another good herbal for babesia. You pulse that 3 days on, 4 off, repeat.
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
TF,
Thanks for the great info.
What do you think your LLMD would have said about stopping meds around early to mid September? Would that be safe or would that be pushing it?
That is the timeline I'm looking at now. But I don't want to risk relapse.
I will be living in Los Angeles, if that matters (not as wintry there).
Posted by janice victorov (Member # 22937) on :
What does the enula do for the babs? Posted by Dekrator48 (Member # 18239) on :
I know someone who had to take Mepron for over a year. He said he started to have decreased symptoms after about 9 months of taking it.
I am taking Green Tea extract (EGCG). I take 240 mg daily of the active ingredient EGCG divided in two doses.
I don't know if I have babesia or not. I tested negative and don't have classic symptoms.
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
ott - long story on my involvement.
Was a rep for Systemic Formulas, Inno-Vita was a sort of spinoff of Systemic.
Systemic has 4 products for paras, Inno-Vita has 2. One for large, one for small paras.
Both companies have combined specific parts of specific herbals to effectively deal with paras.
They are NOT a bunch of "we know this is good + we know that is good" just thrown together. People don't get it when I try to explain it + then whine when I suggest a book that does explain it well.
Larger parasites are the ones to "pulse" as the larger paras emit something so their eggs that they lay in the host will not hatch in the host.
Smaller paras do not work this way, generally. So no need to pulse. And IME inexpensive - about $25 to $30 per bottle with 60 caps. Ask your doc to get them for you. ___________________________________________ Disclaimer: I get nada for reccomendations.
Posted by ott70 (Member # 18237) on :
Great info. Thanks, Massman. And just two capsules a day? Sounds like some effective stuff to me.
So is babesia considered a small parasite based on what you have learned? I would be interested in your explanation and the book suggestion if you are willing to share here or as a PM.
I thought the pulsing method was to avoid bacteria resistance.
Thanks.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
With artemesia, the pulsing is not about bacteria resistance. It has to do with how the body & liver functions in regards to the herb.
The reason why some people don't care for Inno-vita is because we can't buy it ourselves. We have to pay a doctor to buy it for us. Plus, in my case - they weren't effective. I'm not telling anyone not to try them, I just feel there are better alternatives.
A red blood cell is about 0.003 mm. I'm not absolutely sure but is this visible to the naked eye? I just don't understand the reasoning how seeing red specks in urine correlates to babesia cure. Blood in urine has many different causes. Maybe the herbs were irritating to your kidneys or bladder?
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Hoosiers, that is a tough call.
I think it was October when I was rid of all symptoms. Then, if you add 2 more months of meds as Burrascano recommends, you are into winter.
You want to be on meds at least 2 months past the symptom-free date. If that puts you into November, I'm going to guess that my doc would require you to stay on meds until spring.
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Basic info for what it is, lots of other info I Don't think is too reliable.
sparkie says she took Inno-Vita + they did not work for her (did not take the parasite formulas if I recall correctly). I never said it works for everybody.
She still questions my post about what I saw in my urine.
The book is "New Dimensions in Herbal Healing" by Jack Tips ND PhD. When I first learned about parasitology from Jack I was taught about the what + why of pulsing for also getting eggs + their products.
After the large para dies it no longer excretes the chemical that stops eggs from hatching. So eggs hatch + then you kill the newly hatched paras. Done a few times in a row for a few months.
[ 05-18-2010, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: sixgoofykids ]
Posted by Hoosiers51 (Member # 15759) on :
The reason to pulse with the artemisinin isn't because of anything the babesia parasites do, it is because the body produces enzymes making the body resistant to the artemisinin itself after a short period of time.
So the artemisinin itself just becomes ineffective after a certain number of days, due to the body's response to it, so you then have to stop it and restart it.
I'm only commenting on artemisinin and Enula because those are the two herbals I have tried so far.
Janice,
I'm not sure exactly what the Enula is doing. I have just tried it an definitely had some kind of flare/herx from it.
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
The Inno-vita thing is sort of boring to me. It's a dead end. It's not about time - it's about money.
I'm tired of paying through the nose for inferior products. I can & have done better on my own with my own research. I'm just tired of all the profiteering from illness. I don't need to pay a doctor or "practitioner" to purchase a product for me. It's absurd.
I just don't see how anyone could say that red specks in the urine equate with being cured of babesia.
Why would I buy an expensive Inno-vita product for parasites when the other products I bough didn't work? Anti-parasite herbs are generally not that expensive. There are many good brands with potent herbs that I can buy for myself over the internet or at a store.
It's a no-brainer - I think...
Posted by lymeboy (Member # 24769) on :
Well this has been a frustrating and dizzying read. Would love to know what actually works....
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
lymeboy I have stated what worked in my case ... [I am] an alt doc that has been in the trenches since 1985.
** moderator's note - edited. Text added in brackets to make remaining text make sense **
[ 05-18-2010, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: sixgoofykids ]
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
Massman and Sparkle, we know you are in disagreement over whether this product works well. Please keep the bickering off the board. Thank you.
Posted by GiGi (Member # 259) on :
Per Dr. K.: Artemisinin provokes the intestinal wall to secrete an enzyme which destroys the medication before it can be absorbed. This process builds up over 3 weeks. After a one week pause the enzyme has disappeared and takes another 3 weeks to reemerge. Grapefruit juice prevents formation of this enzyme.
Take care.
P.S. He makes a cocktail with the content of the artemisinin capsules mixed into a small amount of Phospholipid Exchange and adds grapefruit Juice.
[ 05-19-2010, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
there are two enzymes at work, and grapefruit juice only works on one of them. This has been studied pretty extensively because it's an issue with malaria treatment. I think the timeline on when the other enzyme builds up and destroys the artemesinin is significantly shorter than 3 weeks, so most people seem to pulse it something like 3-7 days on and a couple of days off.
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Babesia is a damm resistant protozoan to get rid of. I took many things against it (no drugs though, except for Riamet). I swear that many things made my babs symtptoms go down to zero, but once I stopped taking them, it took me a few days or weeks to get many symptoms back.
I relapsed on and on, and really going downwards very fast. Babs symptoms though kept changing, all the time, but I had sweats in different times of the day, or redness and hot spots in different parts, but the fatigue and brain fog ALWAYS came back.
What I took that I swear worked in my case was white cardamon powder and Noni-tincture. I added these to other anti-babesial treatment (artemisinin included).
These 2 things helped me NOT TO RELAPSE again, while the other things helped me become symptomless.
There's a well known practioner follower of dr. K. who now uses cardamon powder with virtually most of her patients. It also helps with yeast.
Since I added these 2 things AFTER BEING SYMPTOM FREE from babesia, my babesia symptoms didn't return.
I fought 2 different babs infections, from 2 tick bites. My protocol of herbs is listed in the thread 'babesia alternative herbs' or something like that, under my older screenname hardynaka (I think...).
I suspect that rife frequencies can help babesia too, but I didn't try these myself. always try 2 different frequencies or treatments, one for the active babesia, one for 'cystic' form.
It is a very resistant infection, but you got to be more resistant and don't give it a chance to recover until it's totally gone!
Now it's been years since my protocol above, and I still didn't relapse. So it worked!
My daughter also had babesia (but not as bad as I had) and only fought with natural things, including microcurrent (similar to rife). So far, babesia didn't return for her too.
Good luck!
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
I'm sorry sixgoofykids. I just don't see how having red specks in one's urine correlates to being cured of babesia.
In all of my studies of babesia & Lyme - I've never come across anything that says that having red specks in one's urine means that one is cured.
I thought it may be confusing to people who may not have alot of experience dealing with babesia.
If there's some cross-reference study that states that red specks mean a cure for babesia, I hope someone will post it & prove me wrong. I'm not trying to bicker with anyone.
I'm very open to alternative ways to beat a difficult illness.
Posted by sixgoofykids (Member # 11141) on :
I understand. It's good to bring up points like that in discussion. I edited out the parts that were inappropriate, I just didn't want the discussion to continue to go south. Posted by MariaA (Member # 9128) on :
Sparkle, your PM box is still full...
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
Please quote where I posted that seeing red specks in my urine was PROOF that I was cured of babs.
Posted by pamoisondelune (Member # 11846) on :
I take a set of herbs which keep my Babesia symptoms down but not out. Very down, mostly unnoticeable.
The main effective herb is Raintree Amazon A-P. It's a bit expensive, so i keep trying to go off it, and then keep getting little symptoms coming back. Here's the link:
Elecampane drops, which i use as a substitute for Enula. Elecampane is the main ingredient of Enula, and a lot cheaper.
Coptis chinensis, drops or pills.
Noni, drops or pills.
I take EGCG and Andrographis pills for other reasons;, they may help with the babesia.
I have Artemisinin and Artemesia annua in reserve; i don't take them now because my symptoms are very slight. Maybe if i take them, i could really conquer the Babesia!
I have Cryptolepis in reserve. Maybe i should start taking that again too. For a while i had no symptoms so i got lax, but i really should fight harder.
I do rife on Babesia frequencies, but haven't noticed any results, so i do only a few minutes, not every day. Maybe i should do more of that too. Results would be hard to notice, since my symtpoms are so slight.
I do take cardamom, never noticed an effect. But now i read that Selma says she took WHITE cardamom. What is white cardamom, and is there a difference?
I guess i should work harder at this!
-----Polly Polygonum ----or Nilufar Knotweed
Posted by sparkle7 (Member # 10397) on :
Massman - why do you bring up the red specks when ever anyone mentions babesia? It's not really an issue unless it means something in regards to a "cure". It could be due to the herbs you were taking (or some other issue) & has nothing to do with babesia...
Anyway - interesting about cardamon. I looked but didn't find anything that specifically says it's an anti-parasite but who knows? It's a pleasant herb/spice to take in any case. How about using some of the oil for massage?
I think there are alot of good non-drug things you can take for babesia. I posted a thread on Lactoferrin but no one seemed to notice. It's something worth looking into, IMHO... Not necessarily for babesia but just an a general supplement to take for Lyme & co-infections.
Posted by massman (Member # 18116) on :
sparkie posted:
"I'm sorry sixgoofykids. I just don't see how having red specks in one's urine correlates to being cured of babesia.
In all of my studies of babesia & Lyme - I've never come across anything that says that having red specks in one's urine means that one is cured"
Where + when did I say I was cured of babs ?
Posted by EEvans (Member # 23457) on :
Question ... I see Artemisinin noted in conjunction with Bactrim DS, and Mepron with Zith.
Is there any reason why one could not take Artemisinin with Zith?
Posted by tick battler (Member # 21113) on :
Hi Brussels,
Thanks for the info about the cardamom powder - I did some searching it and it seems that there are a few different types of cardamom. Do you mind sharing where you got it and any more info about it? Is it the Amomum form? What country did it grow in, as I see there are a few different varieties... See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom
Did you give this to your daughter? If so, how old was she when she took it?
My 3 young kids are still battling babesia and are doing OK, but wouldn't mind adding this to their protocols if it could help.
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