Judging by the symptoms I have read for Bart, I am pretty sure I have it. I am short on money right now, so really can't afford to go to a LLMD to test if I have Lyme or other co-infections...do you think it would be okay to get treatment for Bart right now, and wait a couple of months (I will probably have enough money by then) to go to an LLMD? I have been scratched many times by cats, so maybe I only have cat scratch fever and not Lyme Disease?
Posted by dmc (Member # 5102) on :
Good luck trying that. I doubt you will get anything from your GP.
Posted by Marz (Member # 3446) on :
Maybe if you tell him you've been scratched by cats you have a chance.
Just dont tell him you think you have a co-infectio--bartonella--that you got from a tick.
Posted by Lemon-Lyme (Member # 19229) on :
Thing is, won't a GP want a positive Bartonella before treating?
You can ask a GP to test for Lyme, Bart and co-infections, using local (insurance paying labs), but the accuracy is questionable, of course. Still... if short on money, it's certainly an option.
It is possible you just have Bartonella and not Lyme/co-infections. Of all co-infections, I'd think Bart would be the one not automatically associated with Lyme. But I'm not sure a GP would properly treat Bartonella with the right meds or for long enough.
Posted by Lady36 (Member # 18459) on :
Thanks everyone for the replies. The thing is I am not positive I got it from a tick, it really could be just cat scratch fever (I never saw a tick or got the bullseye rash)
Lemon-Lyme, who would normally treat Cat Scratch Disease properly, if not a GP? I really want to get it taken care of the right way.
I know I should just get the tests done for Lyme and the co-infections (my bf said he would pay) but I feel so guilty spending so much money on LLMD and tests, if it really is just Cat Scratch Disease. I was hoping to get the Bart treated, and see how I feel after that.
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
You may re-think it's 'just' Bartonella later. Many here don't think 'just' Bartonella is a good thing!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Find out what the IDSA treatment guidelines are for Bartonella. Then compare with ILADS guidelines.
Does the IDSA believe in chronic bartonella? They may not. It may need to be a new case. Maybe not, but this is a very important consideration.
Most MDs will follow IDSA guidelines; Most LLMDs will follow ILADS, with individual consideration, of course.
It's also important to look at the work of Bartonella experts - see the books, articles, website for Dr. S. While not everyone agrees with everything he says, it's vital to read it for yourself, along with all other materials from other authors/experts before you can formulate an educated decision. -
Posted by radfaraf (Member # 11909) on :
The longer you wait the greater chance you are going to ruin your life. Wait till you see the costs your boy friend will have to pay if you continue to get sicker and become disabled because you didn't take this seriously.
Posted by Lemon-Lyme (Member # 19229) on :
If you aren't going to see an LLMD now, you might as well go to the GP. At least if you have a positive test, he'll give you something for now. Or he may refer you to an ID, which will probably not work out so great for you.
And unfortunately, even if your tests come back negative, it doesn't rule out Lyme and friends. But you could save some money by skipping the Igenex, if they come back positive. But you are then wasting time... and should see an LLMD for treatment anyway.
And I'm not sure what the treatment most GPs use for Bartonella. I tested postive for Cat Scratch using a local lab (and bart quintana too). All I can say is: all Doxy did was make my heels hurt worse. And that was about 6 months of Doxy, not a short term antibiotic. Ceftin/Omnicef doesn't seem to touch bart either. You could try to steer your GP to using one of the ILADS-type meds (bactrim, quinolone, rifampin, etc), but most doctors don't like their patients telling them what meds to prescribe.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- You would still need liver support all the way, though, be sure to always include that. -
Posted by Lady36 (Member # 18459) on :
seekhelp, I most certainly don't think Bartonella is a good thing. I am having trouble walking or standing for long periods due to the pain in my feet. I have almost all of the symtpoms on the Bart list, and have felt like crap everyday for years now.
When I used the word 'just', it was not to minimize the seriousness of Bart, I was using the word to mean "only", as in "not including Lyme or the other co-infections". Sorry if I offended anyone.
Posted by Lady36 (Member # 18459) on :
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply with advice, I appreciate it.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- What about complementary methods? While they may not be the end-all, be-all they can be of some help.
Do you want links to books or websites to herbal protocols? Is there anyway you could get a rife machine? ($460 is about the least expensive.) -
Posted by 17hens (Member # 23747) on :
I read somewhere that Cat Scratch Fever is self- resolving.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Bartonella can be very much chronic, though. It may be self-resolving for a lucky few (or doctors want to think it is) but it can also completely destroy a person's body.
Bartonella, death - 42 abstracts -
Posted by sammy (Member # 13952) on :
I'm sorry to tell you that your PCP will not likely treat you for "cat scratch fever" or Bartonella unless you are severely symptomatic AND have a positive blood test.
Major symptoms would be fever, cellulitis at the bite/scratch site, and a large swollen lymphnodes.
Posted by Lady36 (Member # 18459) on :
Thank you so much Keebler for all of the help, you are very kind. I was doing some research and found a few doctors that aren't $700+, for the initial visit, so I am going to try and get an appointment so I can get the Lyme and co-infection tests.
sammy, if I was going to go to my GP I was defintely going to ask for a blood test to make sure I was positive before treating. I do have a swollen lymphnode, which I have had for years, and I did have a rash on my arm, twice in the same spot, in the last couple of years.
Thank you everyone. I really do appreciate your taking the time to reply and offering suggestions and advice.
Posted by Remember to Smile (Member # 25481) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lady36: not positive I got it from a tick, it really could be just cat scratch fever (I never saw a tick or got the bullseye rash)
Lemon-Lyme, who would normally treat Cat Scratch Disease properly, if not a GP? I really want to get it taken care of the right way.
I know I should just get the tests done for Lyme and the co-infections (my bf said he would pay) but I feel so guilty spending so much money on LLMD and tests, if it really is just Cat Scratch Disease. I was hoping to get the Bart treated, and see how I feel after that.
Dear Lady, Welcome.
I'm not a healthcare professional nor a legal person, so this is just some suggestions to ponder, not advice.
And quite sorry if some of us get cranky sometimes, esp on a Bart thread. Seems Bart may be the root of feather-ruffling disorders? Not to mention pain, gastro upset, pain, CNS troubles, pain...
Those that reply have either been battling Bart (with personal war stories we'd like to prevent you from living) or are newbies chiming in with ideas or queries.
When i CAN think this week, i sense Bart has infiltrated my brain so i may become like some pod person in a sci-fi film. I'd like to encourage you to SAVE YOURSELF NOW, WHILE YOU STILL CAN! Unfortunately, we can't say that with enough urgency for all the people not yet in Stage 3 LD.
Hit it early, and hit it hard.
The cat(s) that scratched you can easily be blood host reservoirs for the Lyme Bb spirochete AND Bartonella, plus other co-infections, too.
You are now a blood host reservoir for vectors (fleas, numerous tick species, mosquitoes, horseflies, deer flies, mites...) that can spread Bartonella back to another pet or to your bf.
Viable LD Complex causal agents have been found in human tears, saliva, semen, urine, synovial fluid, blood, breast milk, and brain tissue.
Your bf made a wise and generous offer. Take him up on it asap and join the international LD patients' club. (No dues, no benefits.) Denial ain't much of a river for a summer jaunt, anyway.
As per Keebler, talk w/bf about the fact that it's YOUR body, YOUR healthcare decisions, then get that understanding in writing.
Also, get a power of attorney & living will signed as per your desires for a responsible party to make decisions on your behalf should you be unable.
Since your infection may be fairly recent, I'm not implying you're gonna be on your death bed soon, but trips (plural) to the ER are likely. Who will best carry out your wishes if you have a seizure or something? Best POA choice may be the most honest & ethical person you can think of, but you need to consult an attorney or free legal aid office in you area for advice.
In the U.S. now, it seems ONLY an ILADS-trained LLMD will be able to dx and treat you for Bartonella. Others will get you nowhere. The vast majority of M.D.'s have their head in the sand about Bartonella and LD. It's shocking, sad, but true. You need a clinical dx, which only a Lyme-literate M.D. can provide.
Your new LLMD oughta take your detailed history and current status to create an individualized tx plan. Your desire to be frugal for the next few years should be expressed. You may be told to start with supplements & herbs to support your liver first, or whatever. It'll be you & your LLMD deciding as a team.
You'll know tx is working when you begin to feel yourself again.
It's great that you're listening to your body's messages now, 'cause that will be your guide to healing from whatever LD Complex infection(s) you have. You'll need professional LLMD help asap to contain the infection(s) and stave off permanent disabilities.
All best wishes, Smile
Posted by sammy (Member # 13952) on :
Hi Smile,
The information from my post was based on personal experience working with several physicians, reading lab results, and seeing sick children.
I wish that doctors would treat more liberally, based on clinical symptoms but they do not.
"Cat-scratch disease is infection caused by Bartonella henselae. Symptoms are a local papule and regional lymphadenitis. Diagnosis is clinical and confirmed by biopsy. Treatment is with local heat application and analgesics."
"Antibiotic treatment is not clearly beneficial and generally should not be given for localized infection. Ciprofloxacin, gentamicin, or doxycycline may be used for bacteremia in AIDS patients."
Doctors usually follow guidelines like these (Merck manual quoted above), published by the CDC and IDSA.
I mentioned cellulitis (infection and inflammation of the skin) because doctors will treat this no matter what the cause. So if your skin starts to turn red, feel warm, and tender to touch near the bite or scratch site you will need to see a doctor.
Posted by TS96 (Member # 14048) on :
I had a positive Cat scratch fever when I was 6years old. Swollen lymph nodes the size of softballs under my underarms. Fever. Had to had them cut opened and drained, not fun.
30 years later find out I've got lyme and Bart. Still stuggle with cognitive impairment even tho most everything else is better. Learning disabilities all my life.
So be sure and get treated the right way! It doesn't feel good when your 9 year old is smarter than you.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Remember, pets who kiss us on the mouth can transfer stuff we don't want, too. It may not be possible to retrain some pets but having an quick elbow can be a handy mouth cover.
If you only have so much money, I'd put it on a consult vs. testing. Testing is not perfected yet. A LLMD who has successfully treated thousands of patients can best guide you after he discusses your history and symptoms - then you'll know exactly what tests to look at and if they would be worth it and which lab would be best.
Still, a clinical evaluation by a seasoned expert is usually more valuable than tests that are not absolutely guaranteed. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine - by Dr. QingCai Zhang, MD & Yale Zhang
web site: try www.sinomedresearch.org and use "clinic" and then "clinic" for the passwords or call Hepapro through www.hepapro.com -
Posted by Remember to Smile (Member # 25481) on :
I got Buhner's wonderful book, Keebs! Now he's one person I'd have over in a minute, regardless of fatigue or pain level!
Thanks for your notes, sammmy.
Dear Lady, Prompted by severe gastro Bart sx, I went to a VERY non-LL duck and it was hellish. Had a healthy friend with me who was similarly appalled. I did not take the meds nor submit to the test which that arrogant duck prescribed. Also didn't call "asap" to make an appt with his colleague, a surgeon. A week later, I'm much healthier.
My secret? Nothing new to most who are active here. I listened to my own body & my own intuition. I attribute most of my gastro improvement this week to: a) reading a few posts as my energy levels allowed, b) Discontinuing use of 3 prescription meds, and c) Drinking 2 oz. high-quality aloe juice 4x/day (PM me if interested in trade name. I don't sell it.)
NOTE: I am NOT a healthcare professional; I'm just tossing around a few ideas. ymmv
Oh! I need to add a submission for the new, coming-soon section on LymeNet:
"Keebler's Night Club Routines: Audition Here!"
Did ya' hear the one about the duck who reprimanded a Lyme-lady for drinking aloe?!
Cast: Three middle-class adults.
The scene: A large, windowless, stereotypical pale-blue exam room in late afternoon. We see: one fast-moving whipper-snapper in a white coat, one concerned friend sitting upright at attention in an uncomfortable chair, and one near-pathetic Lymie with her belly exposed to the sickeningly flickering (I KID YOU NOT!) large florescent light above.
Duck, reacting angrily at the mention of aloe juice : "Why are you doing that?! It's a LAXATIVE. "
Having made his declaration and being completely disinterested in a response, the domineering duck continues aggressively palpating Lymie's inflammed belly.
Lymie, having expended 143 percent of her reserve strength to hobble into this gastro consult, is lying on exam table, unable to speak (due to the usual excrutiating LD & Bart pain which is, again, peaking). She is in shock on so many levels. That was the first time in 15 minutes that the duck appeared to have heard her speak...
Between winces & moans as her internal organs are battered by the "healthy" duck exerting downward pressure, a portion of the Lymie's brain ponders the little constipation flare she's had the past two days. Constipation is rare for her. She tries to focus on thoughts of healing aloe as she her "exam continues."
She visualizes "constipation" written on her brief list of things to mention at this consult, but her notepad is out of reach. It will not be addressed in this "practice." Huffy gastro duck has not asked about her diet nor her stools. She resigns to the fact that the duck will not allow her to provide her current nor past health status.
The duck moves away from the Lymie. Against her will, the Lymie's body begins to cry. It's wise.
From stage left: Strained, silent friend rises and moves toward Lymie with a small, softer-than-sandpaper, white object that was taken from a gray box on the counter.
Nearly choking, Lymie cries briefly into the white gruffness that's been offered as duck readies for a quick exit.
Duck proclaims a prescription for heartburn is in order and leaves.
Lymie : "It just really hurts."
Friend: "I know."
Lights do not fade soon enough.
Epilogue: Upon home inspection, Lymie's aloe bottle is seen to proclaim: "Not a Laxative."
Days later, Lymie musters a look at duck's "sage" advice and diagnosis (drumroll, please): Abdominal pain! Abdominal Pain!
Lymie doesn't have heartburn, either. Copyright 2010 Remember to Smile, all rights reserved.
Now it's your turn to tell us which herbs go better with ducks. Clearly not sage... Thanks, Smile
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: "Why are you doing that?! It's a LAXATIVE. "![[toilet]](graemlins/toilet.gif)
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: "It just really hurts."![[group hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
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