Anyone have strong opinons on the best and most effective herbal protocol that has had the most positive effect on the widest number of people?
Heard good things about Healthy Directions, Byron White and Cowden, plus I know someone who does a modified Cowden that sounds good.
Do I need to be under a doctor's care? It is rather costly to do both!
Thanks!
Posted by 5vforest (Member # 29365) on :
My doctor uses Healthy Directions along with pharmaceuticals. When I called to order they asked me who my doctor was, but I don't think you need to be under a doctor's care to purchase the herbs.
Posted by kidsgotlyme (Member # 23691) on :
Richedie, whatever you decide to do, I hope that it helps you!!
Have you looked into the Buhner protocol? I read his book and found it rather impressive.
Posted by 365SunnyDays (Member # 29969) on :
I tried Buhner, but was never able to get to the full protocol. Even so, I did not find it helped much.
My LLMD recommends the Zhang protocol. I've been taking it for about 3 months. I was also on antibiotics and recently ceased due to yeast. I'm not sure of the efficacy of Zhang yet. However, the Zhang Artemisia clearly has helped my air hunger (I have used nothing else to treat babs). I took the HH2 capsule for the past 2 days on an empty stomach (I have always taken with food), and I feel that it caused a herx.
My LLMD also recommended that I try Samento and Banderol from Nutramedix (Cowden), but I have not tried that yet. Samento is Cat's Claw (Buhner) with a certain chemical removed.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
i think each person is really different. some like cowden, some swear by buhner, others like nutramedix.
just depends. my llmd used modified cowden but only after you'd been on abx for a long time.
i'd say try each one, if you have the money, and see what works for you.
Posted by Razzle (Member # 30398) on :
Jernigan's protocol is also helpful for some... He outlines his protocol in his book, "Beating Lyme Disease" 2nd edition.
Buhner's protocol (Japanese knotweed) put me in the hospital, probably from too severe herxing, so be careful with the herbal stuff - it can be quite powerful.
Buhner and Cowden disagree on whether or not TOA in Cat's Claw inhibits the benefits of the herb... Samento is TOA-free Cat's Claw. Some say the Samento really works for them, others say the Cat's Claw (with the TOA in it) works fine for them. I think it is something each individual has to experiment with and see what helps them most.
Keep in mind, though, that herbs can take longer to show results, but those results may be more effective/longer-lasting for some people than abx.
Also, Buhner says in his book that it is safe to mix some abx with some herbs - but be sure to check with pharmacists and online for herb-drug interactions first before starting an herbal protocol.
Take care,
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
I have the first edition of Beating Lyme and don't recal a protocol listed.
So now I should also consider the Zhang protocol? So many.
My nutritionist says it takes about 6 months to clear on Herbal.
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
quote:Originally posted by 5vforest: My doctor uses Healthy Directions along with pharmaceuticals. When I called to order they asked me who my doctor was, but I don't think you need to be under a doctor's care to purchase the herbs.
The Healthy Directions thing is confusing because I have to call them, have the saliva test done they require, then go elswhere to get the products after I get their new name(I heard they changed their name), LOL. Plus, it is weird none of the docs I have seen have heard of these herbs. Can't even find their website.
Posted by Razzle (Member # 30398) on :
Hmmm...I thought the whole book was the protocol... Maybe if you call the clinic they can email you the summary version?
Posted by n2themystic (Member # 27315) on :
I have had pretty good results with Cowden especially when I was on the banderol and samento. I have since also added whites a-bab at my llmd recommendation.
When I went to see my llmd i was just on cowden. Now I am on abx, cowden and white. I am starting to have good runs of 4-5 days where I feel pretty good followed by a flare. So I am not there yet but I am having more good days and in a row and my flares are not as severe or as long.
If I was to only be on herbs I think I would for sure do both Cowden and White.
If you have not see this, here is an article about some success being seen with samento and banderol. I thought it was really interesting that this study showed this and before I had read it, I had the same experience with those 2.
The Jernigan protocol is in the second edition of his book. I also have it downloaded and will be glad to share it with you if you'd like.
I started a thread back in Jan 2010 chronicling my journey at the Hansa Center where I was treated. The Jernigan protocol really helped me.
Gary
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
By the way, to be more specific to your question, "Anyone have strong opinons on the best and most effective herbal protocol that has had the most positive effect on the widest number of people?"
I'm not really in a position to answer that question. I'm only speaking for what worked for me. I'm not 100% still, but I'm doing much better than I was a year ago.
One year ago I didn't have much of a life, in fact, I craved and prayed daily for God to take me home. Since treatment, I'm able to do things now that I wasn't able to do for a year or more prior to treatment.
I had lost all hope of ever getting well again. Having hope and knowing that I can get better encourages me to believe others can to. Don't ever lose hope, and never give up.
Gary
Posted by seekhelp (Member # 15067) on :
gwb, any chance I could get the downloaded copy of the protocol? I'm very interested in reading it. Posted by BackinStOlaf (Member # 23725) on :
365Sunny: I am about to start Artemesia today from another brand. I hope it helps my air hunger like it did for you. *fingers crossed*
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
gwb, could I get the protocol?
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Someone gave me a modified Cowden protocol to follow.
Nutramedix Samento ramp up slowly to 10 drops twice daily Nutramdeix Cumanda- ramp up slowly to 10 drops twice daily Nutramedix Burbur - 10 drops twice daily. You can put these all in the same glass of water and drink it before meals.
Nutramedix Banderol
Grapefruit seed extract - Agrisept - L by Nutridiem. 10 drops twice daily.
Morninstar Minerals Energy Boost 70: 2 oz at breakfast and lunch.
This whole thing is all so confusing. My doctor has me on a low to no fat diet, vegan diet to get rid of the biofilms that Fry Labs has found. He also says it is OK for me to eat potatoes, oatmeal, brown rice, etc even though I am overloaded with yeast. Yet, cowden says to avoid. YIKES!
[ 03-31-2011, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: richedie ]
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Razzle, I see the confusion, the book I have is Beating Lyme, not Beating Lyme Disease.
Posted by chiquita incognita (Member # 30381) on :
My LLMD said he and the other docs in the office agree that the Healthy Directions formulas are the best herbal ones they have seen for lyme.
I myself have done incredibly well with them, with very low-scale herxes and mostly peace along the way. Yet really good progress too. I am not cured yet, but really satisfied and happy wiht the progress.
The minimal herxing fyi could be because I am taking what my LLMD said is their gentlest formula. It surely has worked well enough for me.
Posted by momlyme (Member # 27775) on :
My son's LLMD has gotten off abx by ramping up to 15 drops 3 times a day of each Bb-1, Bar-1, and Bab-1
My son is taking Bar-1.
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
CI: that's great news that you are making good progress on this protocol. How long have you been on it and how long does your ND think you have to be on it to get better?
momlyme: How long has your son been on the protocol and what kind of progress has he made during this time?
To both of you: I was looking at their website and could not find any spec sheets that listed the ingredients for the various remedies they have.
When you order the remedies do they include a list of ingredients for each of these remedies? Is there any reason why they don't list it on their website? Do you know what's in the remedies you're taking and giving to your son?
Gary
Posted by momlyme (Member # 27775) on :
When my son's LLMD started having success with these, she mailed me copies of their brochures.
On one of our appointments she gave me 3 empty bottles (each had a drop or two left)
I brought the bottles with us to our next NP appointment for muscle testing (applied kinesiology) and my son tested positive for needing the Bar-1.
Here are the ingredients: Bb-1 tincture(lyme): Queens root, Motherswort, Plantain, Black Walnut, Licorice, Calendula.
The herbs are in a vegetable glycerine -- no alcohol.
As for progress. My son has the neuropathy in the bottoms of his feet that make it difficult to walk. Frontal headaches, lack of motivation, anger, muscle pain, unexplained bruising and red streaks ...These have improved since being on the Bar-1. ... still building up the daily dosage.
He started Feb 4th with one drop 1X/day. moved to 1 drop 2X/day, 1 drop 3x /day, etc.
He is now taking 3 drops/ 3 times a day.
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
Thanks, Heather. Very helpful information. I pray your son makes tremendous progress on this protocol. Please do keep us posted.
Gary
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Beyond Balance looks interesting, but I think it is hard to get it fron them directly. I can't afford to see my doctor and pay for herbals. I need to do one or the other. I might have to go the Cowden protocol route since I can get them on Amazon.com and I like the herbs they use.
I am curious what Beyond Balance uses for their protozoan formula?
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
The thing I like about Beyond Balance is the cost.....looks like ther core protocol is only like 3-4 tinctures.
Momlyme, in the tinctures you show, I don;t see the common herbs found in most tinctures such as those by Cowden or Byron White.
I also see you didn't list the Protozoan tinture! I need that one.
Posted by chiquita incognita (Member # 30381) on :
Richedie In my best understanding, yes you can order from the company directly.
They require a saliva test to get you the right formula. I don't know what the cost is. I heard there are other websites which carry their products, but don't know of them myself, You can google them. The saliva test might be smart, to be honest, if you can afford it.
Gary, the progress:
No longer waking up with two fingers curled into the palm of my hand, asleep. Much less facial stiffness. THis after only six months/less actually. I stopped for a while and am only just now starting up again.
Herx's were very mild with only one or two exceptions, and those two were bearable. Nothing that had me bed-ridden or miserable. I could carry on with my life.
Still other things to address and starting up again with the Bar 1 now. There's more work to do but progress has been great in a very short period of time.
The only time I became truly ill was from using abx, and am still recovering 3 months later, have never been the same since! My god. I love the herbs. My plan is to use them until they can carry me no further, then use the abx to peel those remaining layers of the onion. I am of the hope that this won't even be necessary, but only time will tell.
Best, CI
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Dr. F at F labs says for anyone with the protozoan he found to stay on plaquenil for 6 months along with biaxin. I am getting sick of abx. I was thinking if I could find an herbal product to attack this protozoan, I can get off the meds.
Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
Stephen�s response: I would suggest knotweed, eleuthero, and red root. And perhaps. . . cryptolepis tincture (woodlandessence.com) for protozoan blood borne infection.
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
quote:Originally posted by lululymemom: Buhner's treatment for Protozoans is as follows:
Stephen�s response: I would suggest knotweed, eleuthero, and red root. And perhaps. . . cryptolepis tincture (woodlandessence.com) for protozoan blood borne infection.
Thanks, that is fairly inexpensive!
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Anyone know a good online herb provider?
Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
Depends what you're looking to buy.. I know most of the ones for what's available out there..
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
quote:Originally posted by lululymemom: Depends what you're looking to buy.. I know most of the ones for what's available out there..
Hi, well I will probably order some of the Cowden or Byron White Herbs if not the Healthy Directions for a core protocol, but I want to try some knotweed, eleuthero, and red root first for this protozoan.
Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
PM sent Posted by Cass A (Member # 11134) on :
Dear Friends,
I would just caution that herbs are not necessarily "light weights." I got my first seizures with Lyme after starting on the Buhner herbs and being at a fairly low dose.
Best,
Cass A
Posted by chiquita incognita (Member # 30381) on :
Hi Richedie A good online herb provider, organic herbs of good quality, is Star West Botanicals in CA. Exotic/hard-to-find bulk herbs, standard herbs, tinctures, blends, teas, as you wish.
Best wishes, CI
Posted by chiquita incognita (Member # 30381) on :
PS Richedie Do you need to be under a doctor's care when taking the herbs?
Yes, absolutely!
As you know, herx's are not layperson's material, neither is testing, diagnosing, etc....
Side effects or adverse reactions with herbs are much more rare than with mainstream meds, but we lymie's are also sensitive to a lot of things that other people aren't, and may react to things that other people don't. Professional supervision will be necessary.
Never self-treat, especially with something as serious as lyme.
There may be some funding sources available, pm me. Here is also one: www.needymeds.org don't know if they cover alternative medical stuff, but you could always ask, and let them know you can't tolerate the abx then maybe they would help you. (?) *Do* know of other sources that may cover alternative medicine, pm me.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
iherb or vitacost are good. also "mynaturalmarket" has pretty good prices on some stuff.
Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
I just wanted to add that we use a biofilm buster like serrapeptase prior to using the natural abx. Also Grapefruit seed extract afterwards. All of which you can get from www.iherb.com or www.vitacost.com Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cass A: Dear Friends,
I would just caution that herbs are not necessarily "light weights." I got my first seizures with Lyme after starting on the Buhner herbs and being at a fairly low dose.
Best,
Cass A
I tried high doses of Red Root, Teasel, and a few others and never noticed anything. I ven did triple the recommended dose of GSE and never noticed anything!
Dr. F says the best biofilm buster is low fatr diet. I also hear the other best approach is Bolouke.
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
quote:Originally posted by lululymemom: Buhner's treatment for Protozoans is as follows:
Stephen�s response: I would suggest knotweed, eleuthero, and red root. And perhaps. . . cryptolepis tincture (woodlandessence.com) for protozoan blood borne infection.
Does he have research to back up this protocol? These are rather inexpensive herbs in local stores. I'd like to know if he has had success with people and these herbs.
Posted by aMomWithHope (Member # 19255) on :
up
Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
You can write S. Buhner directly and ask him questions about his protocol. www.1stchineseherbs.com has many in bulk that are cheap to buy.
Just an added note: My daughter had babesia and treated with Cryptolepis in addition to abx, she found the most relief when she added the Cryptolepis. When she went off abx, she continued with the Cryptolepis and feels that the Babesia is mostly gone.
Posted by aMomWithHope (Member # 19255) on :
How did you treat with the cryptolepis, i.e., how many drops per day and for how long?
Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
She took 20 drops crypto 3 times a day and eventually rotating every two weeks with 15 drops wormwood 3 times a day. Buhner says not to stay on Cryptolepis long term unless the benefits are being sustained..
Posted by IckyTicky (Member # 21466) on :
Hey GWB... your mailbox is full. Can I send you my email and get a copy of Jernigan protocol?
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
Icky,
Sorry about that. Just cleaned it up a bit. PM me and I'll send you the pdf download of the Jernigan protocol.
Gary
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Does it matter from where I order the herb tinctures? What is the shelf life?
I ordered the Nutramedix Cowden herbs from Amazon.com -
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Extremely confusing to me. When I look at the list of herbs in the Byron White herbs, I do not recognize many as ever being mentioned as useful for treating tick bourne diseases. When I look at Cowden, it makes more sense to me. Maybe someone can elaborate. Take the BW A-BAB for example.
Posted by lululymemom (Member # 26405) on :
A-Bab has Curcumin Xanthorhizza, which is the latest herb that Buhner has added to his babesia treatment. We use it on it's own in addition to Cowden herbs.
[ 05-05-2011, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: lululymemom ]
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
I am starting the core Cowden herbs next week. If this does nothing, I will try the Byron White.
Since I am not on ABX right now and only doing hebrs along with probiotics, do I need to be super strict with the Dr. B anti yeast diet?
I still eat lots of whole grains in their natural state, oatmeal, etc.
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
Received my Cowden herbs today. They say to start slow and take a few drops of each to start and ramp up slow. I dove right in! I started from day one (today) with the highest does of each herb. I also finished off the bottle of GSE I had left over, probably like 200 drops at once or something. I believe in really hitting these things, I won't be soft on them!
I need to let my doctor know I am taking these herbs but he has spread our visits out to every 6-8 weeks which is actually good since it will save me money.
Posted by tick battler (Member # 21113) on :
Rich, PLEASE go slow on the herbs...it is not recommended anywhere to start at the highest dose!!!!! People start with 1 or 2 drops of Samento or Cumanda and add one drop per day to reach the proper dose. Herbs can be just as strong or stronger than abx and you can certainly have bad herxes from them.
I'm not sure what kind of GSE you have but 200 drops sounds crazy to me. We take 10 or 15 drops twice daily.
tickbattler
Posted by RDaywillcome (Member # 21454) on :
MONEY, MONEY, MONEY! Posted by RDaywillcome (Member # 21454) on :
Hi tickbattler, I have never herxed on anything. I just want to finish off my Nutribiotic GSE so I just want to end it and move onto the Agrisept-L GSE. Taking such small doses never seemed worth it so with any herbs I have ever tried I always went to the top sode. Not a good idea for most I know.
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
I hope I herx so bad, I am in bed for weeks. It says start with 2 drops and work your way up to 15. I think if you tolerate meds and herbs well, start strong. I started off with 15 and am up to 20 drops now on Enula for example and some of the others.
Posted by gwb (Member # 7273) on :
Hard herxing is nothing to brag about. In fact, Dr. J (ND) believes that hard hexes that knock us on our butts is a sign of poor treatment. I tend to agree with him.
It's very hard on your body to have to deal with the shock of the huge die off and you can really make yourself sick going overboard.
I understand your desire to get rid of this disease as quickly as possible, but if you go too fast you'll actually slow your healing process down by overtaxing your body with toxins.
Toxins don't always come out of your body as quickly as you'd like. Slow but steady is the way to go.
You can get VERY sick with toxin overload. Be careful!
Gary
Posted by richedie (Member # 14689) on :
So far no herxing and I have been doing the herbs full strength from day one. Not sure what this means.
I am doing Banderol, Burbor, Cumanda, Samento, Enula and Agrasept-L, plus enzymes.
Posted by aMomWithHope (Member # 19255) on :
Richedie: Am wondering how you are doing on the Cowden protocol?
Also, wondering if those who are taking the Beyond Balance herbals are still seeing success? What symptoms have resolved, and are you taking them with abx?
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