I'm trying to understand the cyst part of the equation. I was bit on 5/23 and started doxy 6/19 after a pos bloodtest for lyme for "early disseminated" based on my symptoms.
Do cysts start to form as soon as you are bit? I have a call into my NP but wondering when someone should think about treating the cysts either with a med or the grapefruit seed extract?
Thank you for your insight!
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Within 20 minutes of taking doxycycline (or some other antibiotics), spirochetes can go into their protective cyst mode.
Search the work of EVA SAPI -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Doxy kills some spirochetes but still it can set someone up for chronic lyme if used without flagyl: with doxy, "cyst levels increased by 200%"
Everything you thought you knew about cyst busters is wrong . . . Eva Sapi . . .
Doxycycline worked according to plan. Doxy inhibits protein synthesis - it kills bacteria, including Lyme, by action within the cytoplasm, inhibiting the manufacture of proteins required for the bacteria's survival.
Doxy and others are commonly referred to as intracellular antibiotics.
Spirochete loads decreased by about 90% while cyst levels increased by 200% - just as expected. . . .
. . . Amoxicillin killed 90% of spirochete forms - OK, but -- it also killed 68% of the cystic forms!
Amoxicillin and other cell wall drugs are not cyst busters - only specific anti-parasite drugs kill cysts - or so we thought.
Well let�s think again for a second: what are cysts? . . . .
- Full blog entry at link above. -
Posted by minky404 (Member # 37964) on :
Thanks for the quick response!
Is Flagyl preferred over something like grapefruit seed extract?
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- You say you have a call into your NP. Are they ILADS educated and lyme literate?
Diagnosing Lyme Disease (&/or whatever else is going on)
Other tick-borne infections and other chronic stealth infections - as well as certain conditions - that can hold us back are discussed here. -
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Q: Is Flagyl preferred over something like grapefruit seed extract?
I have to leave that question to others. I do not know for certain.
Some who don't have access to a LLMD or access to flagyl or tindamax would, of course, do whatever they can and GSE is one option. Just not sure if it gets into the whole body as well.
Allicin, too, may have some effect (at least I know it helps against BioFilm).
I'm still not sure if what can help break through BIOFILM (that slithery coating around bacteria) will also be enough to permeate the cyst form. -
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
Flagyl crosses BBB with ease. i think it has blood thinning ability as well.
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- While not saying they are at all the same, just about these two properties:
Allicin also crosses the BBB (as in that from hepapro.com); also reduce blood thickness. -
Posted by canefan17 (Member # 22149) on :
manybites
Do you like flagyl pulsed? They can't build resistance as they are in cyst form right?
Posted by evmal (Member # 38096) on :
1) as I remember, Dr. S (? might not correct) said that to use antibiotics without Flagyl is not a good idea.
2) I read web blog by LymeMD doctor.
He recommended to add flagyl after the first two antibiotics from combo is became tolerated. Their doses might be gradually increased, one first and next the second. How fast to increase - to make less herx reaction and less side effects.
He thinks to use at least 250-500 mg in the every morning, and that continues is better then pulsing.
**Edited to remove Lyme Dr. name per Lymenet rules**
[ 06-29-2012, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: Dogsandcats ]
Posted by Keebler (Member # 12673) on :
- Since the cysts can start to form in just 20 minutes after taking antibiotic, I'd want the flagyl (or other guaranteed anti-cyst product) BEFORE I'd even start abx.
I think all LLMDs need to totally rethink this.
I understand that flagyl can be hard to tolerate but, somehow, something's got to be in place as early as possible.
Even before abx, other stressors can cause spirochetes to go into cyst form: heat & vibration are just two such stressors.
Spirochetes HATE heat and vibration and will burrow deeper and go faster to cyst form. So, stay cool and avoid driving "beat music" for sure. -
Posted by Marnie (Member # 773) on :
Cyst forms of Bb and spirochete forms are in biofilm.
When stressed...when Bb doesn't have the foods "he" needs...primarily glucose and amino acids, "he" goes into a cyst form...to wait it out.
From what I've read, it appears the cyst form of Bb is most likely to be in the middle of the biofilm with the normal form i.e., spirochete sorta on the "outside".
"When Borrelia burgdorferi reach a certain density, they started to �stick� to each other and start to form an organized structure. Our working hypothesis for this finding is that nutrient depletion is the main stress factor for the initiation of biofilm."
Can't taking flagyl everyday cause bad gut issues (C Diff?)
Posted by Spindleshanks (Member # 32556) on :
Flagyl is used to treat c diff... But it makes my yeast horrible:)
It has been shown to cause cancer in lab studies... Sorry I don't have any articles but I am sure its on here somewhere.
Posted by evmal (Member # 38096) on :
canefan17, my doctor recommended me to use Flagil 500 x 3 times per day, 2 days per week on and 5 days per week off.
I found out that my body cannot tolerate this big daily dose even 2 times per week. But 250-500 mg in the morning was easily.
I read this doses in LimeMD blog.
My doc was interested but agreed with me.
Posted by evmal (Member # 38096) on :
canefan17, my doctor recommended me to use Flagil 500 x 3 times per day, 2 days per week on and 5 days per week off.
I found out that my body cannot tolerate this big daily dose even 2 times per week. But 250-500 mg in the morning was easily.
I read this doses in LimeMD blog.
My doc was interested but agreed with me.
Posted by faithful777 (Member # 22872) on :
My LLMD has us take 500 mg flagyl two weeks on and two weeks off.
Posted by terv (Member # 29410) on :
quote: Spirochetes HATE heat and vibration and will burrow deeper and go faster to cyst form. So, stay cool and avoid driving "beat music" for sure.
Does this mean exercise which raises the body temperature and hot baths are bad?
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Exercise kills them. Read Burrascano's 16th protocol (first subject line under Medical Questions right here on Lymenet).
Posted by AuntyLynn (Member # 35938) on :
You might want to discuss this with his doctor ...
May 2011 study (Tinidazole more effective than Doxycycline)