My daughter has been on Buhner herbs after coming down with Lyme and Bartonella symptoms while at camp. She increased her herbs each week per instructions and is now at full dose in her fourth week.
For the past two nights she has come down with welts all over her torso and upper legs. The welts are itchy. It is not the stretch marks that are associated with Bartonella.
The fact that she hadn't seen these in the first three weeks of treatment and because she has no other reaction, i am assuming it is not an allergic reaction. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this.
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[ 08-28-2014, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]
Posted by glm1111 (Member # 16556) on :
Welts and hives can be a symptom of a parasite infection. Check out the symptom list at Humaworm. Also on the PARASITE WARRIORS SUPPORT THREAD here on lymenet, a chapter of Brian Rosners book has a segment on the importance of treating parasites in order to get rid of Lyme disease since they are now recognized as a co-infection.
Gael
Posted by poppy (Member # 5355) on :
Sounds like hives, which I thought were a sign of allergic reaction. Is she taking andrographis? Buhner says a small percentage of people may get this.
[ 08-27-2014, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: poppy ]
Posted by Judie (Member # 38323) on :
A person can develop an allergy to something at any time.
I've taken amoxicillin at varying times throughout my life, then the last time, wham! A full-blown amoxicillin rash.
The same thing with another med I've had no problem with for years.
When your body is fighting an infection the immune system can get overactive and you can develop an allergy to something that was once benign very quickly.
Herbs can definitely cause allergic rashes.
Posted by ticktox (Member # 6739) on :
Thanks everyone. I am beginning to think it is an allergic reaction. She is getting some huge welts or hives. There is andrographis in the herbal blend she is taking.
The welts started once she went from 9 to 12 capsules 3X/day. She's done a month of the herbs and all her Lyme and Bart symptoms stopped two weeks ago.
She started the herbs within a week of getting symptoms so maybe the month of herbs were enough. I think we'll stop now and see how she responds.
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[ 08-28-2014, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]
Posted by SLML (Member # 42986) on :
I think it is an allergic reaction. I took a combo of buhner herbs at fairly high dose and didn't experience welts. May want to look at the Buhner Healing Lyme website and see if there are some others on their with the reaction to the herbs. I think I have read about it before. It probably is just one herb that is causing the reaction.
Posted by Robin123 (Member # 9197) on :
I think it's an allergic reaction too. Best to check one herb at a time if she starts them again.
Posted by hermit (Member # 44427) on :
why wouldn't anyone think this is a Herx reaction?
Posted by Andie333 (Member # 7370) on :
I had a similar reaction to an herbal compound in a Chinese tea. It was different than any herx I've ever had.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
I don't think Buhner currently recommends andrographis in any of his protocols because of the potential for reaction. It certainly isn't in his updated bartonella protocol, nor is it listed in any of the protocols on the left hand side of the home page of his website.
A consult with Julie McIntyre may be helpful if you are needing direction.
Good for you for getting to max dosage on anything. We can't get past 1/4 dosage without significant herxing, but are healing at low dosage regardless.
The only time our daughter developed itching urticaria was when she took Bactrim - it was an allergic reaction. Hives have never been part of her herx presentations, herxes have mostly been exacerbation of existing symptoms.
[ 08-28-2014, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: rowingmom ]
Posted by ticktox (Member # 6739) on :
hermit, I originally thought it could be a herx but it looks more like an allergic reaction to me with hives the size of my hand all over her torso. I am working with an herbalist who trained with Buhner. i spoke to him this morning and he said it might be a buildup of toxins causing an immune reaction but I still think its more likely an allergic reaction.
The good news is that yesterday was the 27th day of treatment for an acute infection she got five weeks ago. Symptoms subsided after two weeks and she's been symptom-free since until this reaction. So we'll probably stop treatment and see what happens. i know its possible we may see a relapse but hopefully we caught it early and knocked it out.
Posted by still winning (Member # 44439) on :
I too experienced a major hives type reaction on top of my head while doing the Buhner protocol. I was pretty sure it was the androgaphis. But I also knew the androgaphis was really helping me, especially my brain.
I had a theory that the hives would go away even as I continued to take the androgaphis. And the hives did go away. It took a couple of months and I stayed on the androgaphis.
I believe the hives reaction is why Buhner no longer recommended androgaphis. That is a shame because for me it was the most effective part of his protocol.
But there is a newer problem that I have experienced. It is getting harder to find a the single herb andrograhis in stores, with at least one major manufacturer, the Himilayan brand, no longer making it, claiming there were quality control problems (this was a couple years ago and haven’t checked since). One of the chinese distributors said they were re-introducing it though it seemed fine the way it was. A major extract maker pulled their brand from the shelf (though it can still be ordered).
Personally, I feel there did seem to be a problem with some of the androgaphis, actually making me feel worse. But this also happened with a few of the antibiotics I took. Either the herb or antibiotic made me feel worse rather abruptly or they became harder to find.
For instance, ketek. That used to be great for me, especially the brain. Then the local pharmacies said they could not fill my prescription because it was no longer being made. Eventually I called manufacturer who told me it certainly was still being made.
I found a small, independent pharmacy who was willing to order it for me. But as soon as I opened the bottle it didn’t look right (I had taken ketek for years and was knew the tablets well).
Nonetheless I took my new ketek prescription. But it actually made me feel worse. I stopped taking it. I think something is going on with some of our best natural and pharmaceutical antibiotics.
But if you can find a reliable brand of androgaphis, and can wait out the rash which might eventually go away while you are still on the androgaphis, this natural can really help with the brain.
Still Winning (formerly “We’ll Win”)
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
I hope you stopped her immediately. You can have a reaction like hives once and the next time you're in anaphylactic shock so please be careful.
Posted by Judie (Member # 38323) on :
I agree with Randibear. The next time it could be worse.
I've wound up in ER before because of hives spreading and neck swelling. It's not worth the risk.
Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
You definitely have to manage herxing, no question about it. However, herxing is part of it, detoxification is part of it. If you manage herxing you can manage detoxification and if you manage well enough the body can do all the detoxification without help.
Herxing is any physical reaction to something you've done. Doesn't matter how the physical reaction manifests does it?
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
I'm not sure you can detox from an allergic / anaphylactic reaction.
Posted by ticktox (Member # 6739) on :
lymie_in_md, I don't think this is a herx reaction. I've been at this for 14 years and know what a herx looks like. This looks much more like an allergic reaction to me. I think people misuse the term herx. Not every reaction is a herx reaction. We were treating an acute case and her symptoms resolved a couple of weeks ago. We were just finishing out the course of herbs and then the hives appeared all over her body. We have chosen to play it safe and stop treatment. We had less than a week to go anyway.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
Posted by hermit (Member # 44427) on :
Rashes are one of the main presentations for my condition. The immune system found something living in the skin - this is my interpretation. Doctors have called it allergies for years, but now i'm facing the fact that i've been living with bad bacteria. Everytime the rash came back, it never affected my breathing. Is it a rare allergic reaction or is it the disease? Not even a doctor can tell you he knows the answer to that question.
Posted by rowingmom (Member # 41213) on :
ticktox - if you notice symptoms of relapse please start herbs again. Buhner says that for some, long term, low dose treatment is required. There are formulas out there that don't contain andrographis, and if you purchase the single herbs/tinctures as we do (dried powdered herbs from 1stChineseHerbs, tinctures from WoodLandEssence), you can mix your own combinations at the dosages which work best for your daughter's specific presentation.
Start one at a time and increase slowly. With combination tinctures it can be hard to get a handle on what is causing the problem if one occurs.
Bartonella is a bug*er and the physical/pain symptoms are the least of it.
Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :
ticktox,
One other thing to consider - Is there any possibility that the patient also has a babesia infection?
See the link below for a journal article I recently posted that proves that babesia infections adversely affect the liver detox pathways.
Generally hives is an allergic reaction and I think stopping the herbs was a good idea. But I would be very concerned that treatment was not long enough. I am not at all convinced that herbs alone are sufficient to "cure" any of the tickborne infections. But that is just my opinion of course.
Bea Seibert
Posted by lymie_in_md (Member # 14197) on :
Hermit -- I got rashes similar to you recently and when I started the ABX this past time they were gone within 2 days.
My definition of a herx is any negative physical reaction to a treatment, that hopefully goes away because of the treatment and you're better for it. The ultimate herx occurred on the exorcist, at least I think it did. Posted by ticktox (Member # 6739) on :
Bea, thanks for your thoughts but absolutely no symptoms of Babesia. I've been at this for `14 years, have an older daughter who was on abx for 7 years for Lyme, Bart and Babesia and missed all of high school. I facilitate three groups and have been doing so for ten years. In this case, my youngest daughter had clear symptoms of Lyme & Bart. I will be watching closely for any relapse but presently all symptoms gone.
Believe me, i know the risks of relapse. The hives were a new experience for us and at first I thought we were dealing with a herx but the fact that she had no other symptoms except itchey hives everywhere, I became more concerned we were dealing with an allergic reaction. We will be quick to return to treatment again if symptoms recur.
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