I've been looking into mold as part of my ongoing illness.
Dx'd with Lyme in 2010, made good progress and was off all meds at end of 2012. Had an amazing 2013/2014, but started going down hill again in 2015. This corresponded with getting exposed to several moldy environments.
Long story short, my family and I are looking to move to be closer to family. We found our dream home. It had a bit of a musty odor in parts, so I did a Mycometrix ERMI test on every floor including basement and attic.
All of the ERMI's came back with ranges from 4-8. Goal is to be <1 and Hertsmi's were 20-30 Goal is <10.
We are so saddened as we wanted to move there. Question is, can the home be properly remediated? The worst thing we could do is move our family into a very moldy environment.
At the same time, I've read on www.biotoxinjourney.com that the average American house has a HERTSMI of 30. So this is average and it means that every house we will look at will likely have a problem.
Thoughts?
I'd feel better about remediation if it was only on one of the floors. Isolated. But it is on every floor.
Also, current owner seems to have health issues. FAR Infared sauna, etc. Hmmm
Sigh.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
"Also, current owner seems to have health issues."
Big red flag.
Keep looking!
Posted by kms1990 (Member # 41700) on :
Stay away Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
STAY AWAY! We moved into our dream home in 2011. Something was slightly off with the air quality - it was/is a very tight house and it bothered my sinuses a little. No musty odor or anything obvious. This was waaay before I knew anything about ERMI.
One month later, I got sick with Lyme. Haven't been well since.
Bottom line - If I could go back and do this over, we would NOT HAVE MOVED IN HERE.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
Thanks. WPinVA, what was the ERMI of the house when you measured it?
Do you still live there?
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
You might want to ask a mold remediation specialist that question.
And Like WPinVA said, some houses are very tight (that's the way they make them now), no way for the home to breathe. I guess the thing to do is to look for one that has the least amount of remediation.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
Thanks all.
We keep going back and forth with what we want to do. We are getting some more tests.
If we can find where the problem is we may just opt to remediate and are talking with some biotoxin remediation folks.
My fear is every house we look at will have an issue. My friend has been trying to find a house for a year and they have yet to find one that didn't test high for mold.
The average Hertsmi score in the USA is supposedly a 30. I need a home <10
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
We have been working on remediating our home since 2013, from scores roughly in range of what you describe, but a bit worse. I think we're starting to make real progress and may be running into success soon.
We have had many mold testers and remediators come through our doors, most well researched and well recommended. None are thorough in researching potential issues. They all miss things. Realistically, remediating from that score can be a long process, with success requiring lots and lots of money, and lots of experiments and researching that you go through yourself, as part of really getting to thoroughly know a home.
It is also possible that it is simply one thing, that would be easily fixed, with only $10,000 or so spent. Similar high scores across the home does not necessarily speak to a larger problem--if the A/C system has a problem in it, it could be feeding the whole home, so still could be just that one thing.
I have been in some homes with basements that need subpumps and the pumps have lost power or burned out, resulting in flooding, that in all honesty I would think have absolutely no chance of every being properly remediated for someone like me or you.
After working so hard on a home without a basement, I really would not personally ever consider trying to remediate a home with a basement.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
quote:Originally posted by bcb1200: At the same time, I've read on www.biotoxinjourney.com that the average American house has a HERTSMI of 30. So this is average and it means that every house we will look at will likely have a problem.
I'd feel better about remediation if it was only on one of the floors. Isolated. But it is on every floor.
One way for the average to be 30 is for that most/all of them to be 30. But another way is for many of them to be better, and many to be worse, than 30. But I guess the worst possible is 50, so 30 really is quite up there. Not very hopeful.
If one must move, and can't find better than this, perhaps if some portions of the building are much better than others, that at least gives opportunity to live in the better section while remediating the other section.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
Hi folks:
So update. I went to the house today with a good mold inspector who I know from previous work.
The bad news: We did find visible mold growth of aspergillus growing in the ceiling of the basement. Due to lack of dehumidifier in the basement for years. The garage is a problem with a pipe that burst 10 years ago and was never fixed. We also found mold growing in the attic in a few places, likely due to a poorly sealed attic hatch.
The good news: The house does not seem to have a systemic moisture problem or issue with repeated leaks / floods. The basement is VERY DRY with no evidence of flooding. Just normal humidity that can be kept under control with a standard dehumidifier.
The mold inspector felt if we properly remediated the garage, basement, and then did a proper cleaning on first / second floor we will be in good shape. There is no other evidence of moisture or mold anywhere in the house. We took several air samples to test.
So, if we move forward, we will do the remediation before we move in. That way we can get rid of all of the mold, fog in each room, hepa vaccum, etc. A real clean slate.
Then wait 2 weeks and do an ERMI/Hertsmi
Then move in.
Most houses we know of in this town have wet basements. This one does not. We are really confident we can fix it properly and then have a safe, healthy home.
[ 09-29-2016, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: bcb1200 ]
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by MichaelTampa:
After working so hard on a home without a basement, I really would not personally ever consider trying to remediate a home with a basement.
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Good luck, bcb .. it would scare the %$#% out of me.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Awesome Michael and Bcb! Wow, Michael you have really had quite the journey!
Bcb, I know someone who looked at 16 homes before she found one that had the least amount of mold in it to remediate. Mold is popular in the south, east, and midwest due to humidity, so I think it is tough to find one without it. I also met someone who couldn't find a house without it so she and her hubby had one built.
Great there was no mold in the basement!
Just a thought too, doesn't ozone kill mold (Michael or anyone)?
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
Fyi, this is going on right now for free: Lyme and mold toxicity (she did heavy remediation).
Suggestion - if you make an offer, make it contingent on the seller cleaning up the mold and then you can decide based on testing and inspection if it's acceptable or not.
Why should you take this on? Who knows how extensive it really is until you start ripping out ceiing tiles, etc.
We had a contract on a house years ago and the inspector found black mold, which we had tested and it turned out to be the toxic kind. We asked the seller to remediate professionally and he would not do it. He did a crappy DIY job that just spread the mold around more. So we walked away.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by WPinVA:
Suggestion - if you make an offer, make it contingent on the seller cleaning up the mold and then you can decide based on testing and inspection if it's acceptable or not.
Why should you take this on? Who knows how extensive it really is until you start ripping out ceiing tiles, etc.
[/qb]
- I was thinking the same thing.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
Thanks for the input. We considered that but don't want to go that route for 2 reasons:
1) We won't have the confidence they will get the spaces properly remediated per our specs using remediators familiar with Biotoxin illness.
2) It will be much easier to remediate after they move out and take all of their musty boxes and bins with them. Their attic and basement and garage is full of boxes and bins and they could be part of the problem. We want all of that stuff OUT so we can do a proper remediation and then a deep clean.
Note to all here. Never store items in cardboard boxes in attics, basements, or garages. Only plastic tubs that seal.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
quote:Originally posted by WPinVA: Suggestion - if you make an offer, make it contingent on the seller cleaning up the mold and then you can decide based on testing and inspection if it's acceptable or not.
Why should you take this on? Who knows how extensive it really is until you start ripping out ceiing tiles, etc.
Great idea! I forgot we did this too. It was from some boxes left on the basement floor. The seller wanted to clean it themselves and we told them that we wanted it professionally done. You could also get three quotes for mold remediation and ask them to reimburse you the average.
I know you love the house, but they should give you some kind of credit for all that work (unless of course you're getting the house for a steal).
Boxes aren't an issue if you have them on racks, plus plastics off gas. That's what we did--racks (container store). We tested for mold a few years ago with all our boxes on racks and no mold. They just need room to breathe.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
Basements are scary, but if moisture there is at a good level, and way better than neighbors, it is at least very encouraging.
I agree that a real remediation you would want all that stuff out of there, and you want control over the work. So it does make it better to buy then get them to move out.
It is just then the financial risk you have of whether it is not successfully, for whatever reason.
Yes, ozone can kill mold, as I am told. I hear there is some risk to pipes/conduits/rubber seals, etc. (wish I remembered more precisely). That is not one I have tried.
moldzero.com, which has various locations, also has a fairly friendly, but inexpensive treatment that is perhaps similar, is is not exactly hydrogen peroxide, but uses similar chemicals. Then they have something to prevent mold by being too scratchy for it to survive, on touch (similar to how DE kills some bugs).
There are so many treatments that can be tried. Of course there is nothing like getting out all of the mold sources, and not bringing in bad furniture or other bad sources.
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
But an ozone air purifier won't kill mold, will it?
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: But an ozone air purifier won't kill mold, will it?
If you're talking about one of those air purifiers that puts out a small amount of ozone, maybe it would kill a tiny amount (or maybe not). But it would not do a thorough job on mold. You need something much more concentrated for that.
Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
"Thanks for the input. We considered that but don't want to go that route for 2 reasons:
1) We won't have the confidence they will get the spaces properly remediated per our specs using remediators familiar with Biotoxin illness."
That makes sense but the concern is how much $ this may cost, and you will be on the hook for it if you wait until you own the house. Can you at least use the presence of VISIBLE MOLD IN THREE LOCATIONS to renegotiate a lower purchase price? Based on seeing visible mold in three locations, you could have mold lurking behind the walls in all parts of the house.
Do you really love this house? What is the draw? PLEASE consider walking away.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
I've consulted with two of the best indoor air people in Mass about the home. One comes highly recommended from prominent Llmds.
They both say the house is fixable. And I've found the best remediation company in MA who can do it.
It will be expensive. We will be asking for $s from the sellers to do it. The basement and garage need complete remediation along with attic. First/second floor just need good cleaning ofnall surfaces etc.
We have considered walking away. But we aren't ready to do that yet. The town is the one we want to be in as it is close to family and has amazing schools. But Most houses in town have moisture problems in the basement. We just aren't confidence we will find a house that will be any better.
Our friends have been looking at new homes for 2 years. They have had accepted offers in on over a dozen and had to walk away from each of them due to high ERMI. They've viewed almost 100 homes in this time and only 2 were acceptable.
In the end we want to fight for The house because the property is amazing (we just aren't going to find anything better) and because the house itself doesn't have a chronic moisture problem. The basement doesn't flood. The attic is well ventilated. The problems the house have are from pipes that burst in the garage a decade ago that were not properly dealt with, along with owners who didn't run a dehumidifier in the basement over several decades. In Massachusetts, you need a dehumidifier in the basement from April - October.
It can be fixed. We are sure of it.
Posted by dbpei (Member # 33574) on :
Wow. Good luck bcb! It sounds like you know what you are doing. I am happy for you.
Posted by bcb1200 (Member # 25745) on :
Well the sellers pulled out. We couldn't reach a deal on the mold remediation costs.
Sad, but probably best in the long run.
Posted by MichaelTampa (Member # 24868) on :
I wonder if it could be tough to get any seller to give you credit for the cost of a quality remediation.
I might think that with visible mold like I think there was in this case, you would get something. But I bet with a number of homes, that might even be tougher to remediate, they might give no credit. Their reality may be that the vast majority of purchasers will just not raise this issue, so they might not be motivated to give you any credit for your needs.
Posted by Catgirl (Member # 31149) on :
There is mold all over states that are humid so it can be challenging to find one with low mold, but it's possible. True, sellers don't have to take anyone's offer. So be it.
I was told by someone wise to never fall in love with a house. If it didn't work out, there's a reason. I actually think someone is looking out for you. You will find a healthier home. Posted by dbpei (Member # 33574) on :
Sorry, bcb. I agree with Catgirl. It wasn't meant to be. But keep on looking. I bet you will find something else you love and it may not have the issues this one did.
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