Hi all, I've been treating with herbals for 7 months now. Long story short, haven't been able to get up anywhere near recommended doses of any herb. Latest is beyond balance mc-bab-2;I've taken it for over 80 days and can't get beyond 2 drops without feeling too lousy to function adequately.
My new Llmd since 5/1/17 said that some people just can't get up to dose on the herbals. For some it's better to start with herbals and switch to abx, others vice versa.
So now I've got a new protocol. Will continue the mc-bab and increase as tolerated but now we're adding biaxin, omnicef, nystatin, and cytomel also for low t3.
He said to start them all at once, but to me it seems wiser to stagger the starts. I've never had troubles with abx in the past b4 Lyme dx.
QUESTIONS: 1. Once I start the omnicef, how many days should I wait before starting the biaxin? I'm assuming that taking the Nystatin with the abx is appropriate. 2. What about starting the cytomel in relation to the abx? Any suggestions? 3. How is the best way to time the taking of my probiotics in relation to the abx?
Thanks
Posted by Brussels (Member # 13480) on :
Sorry I can't help you on that (as I don't use abx), but I hope someone will!
Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :
I personally would stagger them in case one makes you ill or you have hives or something. At least you would know what caused it.
Taking Nystatin with an abx is OK.
Take probiotics 2 hours away from any abx.
I have no idea about Cytomel. You could call a pharmacist.
Posted by grakay (Member # 48057) on :
I don't know how many days you should wait before starting biaxin.
If this is regarding spacing out of abx, I'd wait a minimum of 3 days. I know when I first started taking abx, I'd introduce a new one every 3 - 4 days. If one of them makes you herx really badly, wait longer before introducing the next abx. Some abx I'd to wait a whole week for the herx to become more tolerable.
Yes, nystatin with abx is OK.
I don't know about cytomel.
Yes, probiotics 2 hours away, please make sure you're taking S. boulardii.
Don't feel bad, I'm also one of those that do better on abx than herbals.
Posted by Sonoma 1 (Member # 50187) on :
Thx, glad I staggered the start. I started with the biaxin and reacted poorly within hours of the first dose. After 3 doses, I just couldn't hack it anymore and called the doc for something else hopefully. It gave me intense anxiety, depression, and insomnia worse than the disease ever has.
Posted by grakay (Member # 48057) on :
Sonoma, I'm so sorry that you reacted badly. Perhaps you could start at 1/4 dose? I forgot to mention that I tend to use a pill cutter and start really low and slowly work my way up. Learned the hard way after starting zithromax & mepron full dose.
Ps: Biaxin leaves me with a metallic taste in my mouth at all times. That's normal, unfortunately.
Posted by Sonoma 1 (Member # 50187) on :
Thx grakay, my doc suggested the same thing as you. Just 1/4 pill per day for now.
Once the biaxin side effects wash out, I'm gonna try the omnicef and see how I do with it for a week or more before tackling the biaxin again.
That was real rough. 36 hours since the last of only 3 doses, and I'm still feeling wired and anxious.
I hope I can eventually tolerate the biaxin at rx dose, it seems to be a good one.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Biaxin gave me anxiety, insomnia, and anorexia. By the 5th day, I couldn't bring myself to eat even one bite of food all day and I wasn't sleeping a wink.
My doctor laughed when I reported this and just switched me to another med.
It was no laughing matter as far as I was concerned!
Posted by Sonoma 1 (Member # 50187) on :
quote:Originally posted by TF: Biaxin gave me anxiety, insomnia, and anorexia. By the 5th day, I couldn't bring myself to eat even one bite of food all day and I wasn't sleeping a wink.
My doctor laughed when I reported this and just switched me to another med.
It was no laughing matter as far as I was concerned!
No joke! Do you recall what he switched you to?
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
No. He wasn't a lyme specialist. He was just a lyme friendly doctor. He tried lots of meds on me. None of them helped.
I just saw him for a few months while I was waiting to get in with a doc who was supposed to know more.
Posted by map1131 (Member # 2022) on :
Sonoma, don't be surprised if you won't be able to handle the abx dosages either.
Sounds like you could have some detox issues. Genetic detox issues that would make it impossible for you to tolerate dosages and especially combos of abx.
Pam
Posted by grakay (Member # 48057) on :
TF, I think you just listed some of my current symptoms. I didn't realize that Baixin could cause anxiety, insomnia, and anorexia. I have 0 appetite. I thought it was due to the metallic taste in my mouth. Thank you for mentioning that!
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Glad you saw my post, grakay. Biaxin can also cause depression and serious mood and mental changes such as thinking people can read your thoughts, etc.
It is no fun at all if this med does these things to you.
Sleep is a necessity for a lyme patient, so if it causes insomnia, it likely is not the med for you at all. You don't want anything to interfere with your healing, and sleep deprivation will do that.
Posted by Sonoma 1 (Member # 50187) on :
quote:Originally posted by map1131: Sonoma, don't be surprised if you won't be able to handle the abx dosages either.
Sounds like you could have some detox issues. Genetic detox issues that would make it impossible for you to tolerate dosages and especially combos of abx.
Pam
Well shucks, I don't like the sound of that. Before I had Lyme, I had taken amoxicillin for sinus infections and Bactrim for epidydymitis with no adverse reactions.
When first dx'd with Lyme back in Feb, I took doxycycline 200mg bid for a month without any trouble.
But it's strange that antimicrobial herbs and now biaxin have been rough on me. Fingers crossed the omnicef is okay, but I'm gonna hold off a while before I tackle it.
I'm starting back to work tomorrow after being out on disability for the past 10-1/2 months. I don't need an extra stressor just now.
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
Any time you start a new med, you can expect a herx on the second or third day. So, try to have the herx start on a weekend rather than a week day since you are now working.
Here is the place where Burrascano says this:
"Several days after the onset of appropriate antibiotic therapy, symptoms often flare due to lysis of the spirochetes with release of increased amount of antigenic material and possibly bacterial toxins. This is referred to as a Jarisch Herxheimer-like reaction. Because it takes 48 to 72 hours of therapy to initiate bacterial killing, the Herxheimer reaction is therefore delayed. This is unlike syphilis, in which these reactions can occur within hours." (p. 17)
At least 1/4 of all lyme patients have trouble detoxing. It is caused by a genetic issue. The lyme specialist can get around this issue by giving the patient glutathione and educating the patient on all of the various ways to detoxify.
You detox as much as you have to so that you can tolerate your protocol.
Since your stomach is handling the antibiotics, I believe you will just need to do more detoxing and you should be all right.
Drink lots and lots of water with lemons squeezed into it. Use fresh lemons only. My doc wanted me to eat 4 per day. I made lemon water my only drink while treating these diseases.
People are amazed at how well this works.
Other methods if you start to feel bad include taking Alka Seltzer Gold up to 4 times per day. Squeeze lemon or lime into it. You should feel better right away.
Here are some detox tips from the famous Dr. H:
For Herxheimer reactions: 2 Alka-Selzer Gold (no aluminum) in 8 ounces of water with lemon or lime followed by 6-8 capsules of glutathione or 1500 mg of oral liposomal glutathione.
70% will feel better in hours
On the topic of water: Dilution is the solution to pollution. This suggests that in order to help our bodies detoxify, we must drink more water
AND:
From Dr. H. patient, Sept, 2013:
Flare protocol in a nutshell:
Try 1st: --Burbur, 10 drops every 10 minutes for 2-3 hours for 10 days until flare resolves --Parsley (same as burbur) --Lemon/lime in H2O sipped through straw 4x/day --Alka Seltzer gold or sodium bicarb 4x/day
If above doesn't help, add:
Oral glutathione (Essential Pro) 6-8 caps at once, repeat as needed, up to 3x/day
If no help w/above steps, try: --Pekana drainage 15 drops of each bottle 3x/day --Sydetox 15 drops 2x/day --LDN, as prescribed at bedtime
Posted by Sonoma 1 (Member # 50187) on :
Thx for the detox info. Will definitely need to step up what I already thought was a good detox regimen.
I'm doubtful my reaction to biaxin was a herx, but will certainly entertain that possibility.
I felt increasing anxiety within 3 hours of the first dose I took in the morning. Worse anxiety after dinnertime dose and bad insomnia on that first night. Barely tolerable anxiety and depression after the 1st 24 hrs at which point I'd only taken 3 doses.
I stopped biaxin after the Tuesday morning dose. Each day since then has been a little better. This morning Friday, I'm almost but not quite back to baseline.
Biaxin is a bacteriostatic drug, right? If so, by my logic bacteriostatic drugs should not cause a herx since they don't actually kill the bugs, just stop their reproduction. Wouldn't the bugs die off at the same rate on their own? bacteriostatic abx or not?
Question: will bacteriostatic abx cause a herx?
Posted by TF (Member # 14183) on :
I mentioned the timing of a herx because you are starting a new med, omnicef and also going back to work for the first time. Don't want your first day to be horrible.
I definitely believe that your reaction to Biaxin was a side effect and not a herx. It affected me the same way. The side effects started on the first day and got worse each day I took it.
Too bad your doc still wants you to take it.
I mentioned the detox info since you had a hard time with herbs getting to the full dose. That may be an indication that you need to detox more.
Where did you read that Biaxin is bacteriostatic? I didn't see that said in Burrascano.
Bacteriostatic meds stop the germs from reproducing. Without the drug, the germs would reproduce and you would see the disease advance.
Posted by Sonoma 1 (Member # 50187) on :
quote:Originally posted by TF: I mentioned the timing of a herx because you are starting a new med, omnicef and also going back to work for the first time. Don't want your first day to be horrible.
I definitely believe that your reaction to Biaxin was a side effect and not a herx. It affected me the same way. The side effects started on the first day and got worse each day I took it.
Too bad your doc still wants you to take it.
I mentioned the detox info since you had a hard time with herbs getting to the full dose. That may be an indication that you need to detox more.
Where did you read that Biaxin is bacteriostatic? I didn't see that said in Burrascano.
Bacteriostatic meds stop the germs from reproducing. Without the drug, the germs would reproduce and you would see the disease advance.
Thanks TF. First day back was low key but okay. The biaxin effects are about 80% gone. I'm at least functional and being at work took my mind off my troubles.
I was only partially correct about the bacteriostatic characteristic of biaxin. I don't recall where I got that info. A quick Google search revealed that "Clarithromycin may be bacteriostatic or bactericidal depending on the organism and drug concentration."
I've always been sensitive to many external substances. Side effects of many but not all drugs has always been an issue.
In due time I'll try the biaxin at 1/4 dose and see what happens. Or maybe I'll just tell doc to give me something else. Maybe by late next week I'll try the omnicef.