Friend's 5 yo got a bullseye rash that did not expand. Instead the rash faded the next day. The pediatrician said it could not be Lyme because the rash did not expand.
I am strongly advising my friend to find another way to get the kid on amoxicillin. But my friend is conflicted because the ped said it's not Lyme and everything she is reading on the internet says that if it was Lyme, the rash would have expanded.
Does anyone have a link to an official source that says that Lyme rashes do not always expand and/or that it can still be lyme if the rash fades on its own the next day?
Again, I am not asking for myself. I am quite sure that Lyme rashes don't always expand. I need something definitive to convince my friend. It's hard to say "I'm right and your pediatrician is dead wrong!"
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Please tell your friend for me....
And I am sorry for you WP because friends and family are the absolute worst when it comes to LISTENING to us- sad, but true. And it is heart breaking to watch them suffer later because they didn't. Anyhow...
I don't know a of a parent on this planet whose child was originally misdiagnosed by a doctor (and there are tons of them out there) and now suffers with chronic Lyme that doesn't wish they would have done their homework and/or gotten a LLMD from the start.
A bull's-eye rash IS Lyme disease. If it lasts 2 hours or 600 hours- it is still Lyme disease. And NOW is the time to act or suffer the consequences. You can't unpaint the wall.
Ask your friend about that "expanding rash theory" research they did- - was it related to Borrelia burgdorferi, Borrelia garinii, Borrelia afzelii, Borrelia miyamotoi, or one of the other 300 known strains?
If they don't know it indicates they don't know as much as they think they do and may want to listen to you.
Ask your friend if the "expanding rash theory" was related to a clinical diagnosis or to the surveillance criteria that even the CDC says is NOT to be used for clinical diagnoses?
(It is for the surveillance purposes only!!!)
Ask your friend how many children actually get a Lyme related rash (less than 10%) and how many of those are "typical bullseye" or atypical forms? (More atypical than typical by far.)
Ask your friend- and I am so sorry I am just very angry to see something like this happening. AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN!!!!
Ask your friend if watching their child suffer, possibly miss years of school, and tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for future medical bills has been set aside or planned for to deal with this if they are wrong? (And they are.)
Ask your friend what the TWO top papers/guidelines on Lyme recommend for those with a bulls-eye rash of any size, any color, any duration, or any shape?
(Answer- BOTH say to treat immediately with antibiotics. Heck, even chiropractors who don't like drugs and other naturalists with any sense at all say to treat.)
Ask your friend if they've read the www.TreatTheBite.com website that has a one page document with the treatment recommendations right there on the front page that can be printed out and taken to any doctors office to get their child treatment?
Ask your friend if that is the engine running on their car that I hear because they are on the way to a doctor to get that dear child some medications?
POINT- Studies that talk about rashes are based on patients who actually have them, and patients who have them for more than one day, otherwise a doctor wouldn't have the opportunity to see them and/or be able to include them in a study about rashes, would they?
From the dreaded Dattwyler- even this idiot admits to who made up the insane stuff we've been exposed to. Here are quotes from a legal action- a deposition.
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Q Do you know Dr. Wormzer?
A Very well. We worked together on a number of projects.
Q Is Dr. Wormzer an expert in the field of Lyme disease, it's treatment and management?
A Yes.
The standard of definition of erythema migrans is it must be at least five centimeters in diameter. They're also in the CDC surveillance case definition which I helped to write, so.
Q So that it doesn't -- and you are a consultant to the CDC, so it doesn't meet the criteria for erythema migrans rash if it's under five centimeters?
A Yes.
Q Or it has to be equal to five centimeters?
A Equal or greater than.
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2 points above. He said "surveillance" criteria. And he is the one pulling the CDC strings and making our lives miserable.
Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Page 2- right hand column- the definition of chronic Lyme disease. Read this section found ATTACHED to the bottom of the page at this link.
It starts the paragraph saying- "Another problem is the variable incidence ...."
The last sentence in that paragraph says it all.
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Have your friends look at pages 3 and 4 on that same document. Just have them skim down the list on this study of what symptoms their child can develop if they are wrong.
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Out of over 1100 children, see how many didn't have a "typical rash".
Even some of the biggest idiots say... (and note the word "classically" is used)...
"The rash is classically 5 to 68 cm of annular homogenous erythema (59%), central erythema (30%), central clearing (9%), or central purpura (2%).
Serologic testing is not indicated for patients with erythema migrans, because initially, the result is usually negative.
Successful treatment of a patient with erythema migrans can be accomplished with 20 days of oral doxycycline, amoxicillin, or cefuroxime axetil."
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Even the biggest idiots say rashes can differ depending on location, with their conclusion being.. "Cases of EM-like skin lesion in patients from Missouri and New York have distinct clinical presentations."
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Posted by Tincup (Member # 5829) on :
Here, again with the idiots, not even OUR stuff, it says approximately 1/3 of the patients with a rash did NOT have a rash that expanded.
QUOTE- "...Eleven (2.8%) of 393 study patients had been initially treated with cephalexin prior to our evaluation; 9 (82%) were originally diagnosed with cellulitis. Cephalexin was administered for 8.6 days (range, 2-21 days) prior to presentation. All 11 patients had clinical evidence of disease progression, including 8 whose rash enlarged, 2 who developed seventh-nerve palsy (1 with new EM lesions), and 1 who developed new EM lesions. "
I forgot something! I forgot to say thank you for caring and trying to help your friends. Hope all goes well.
Posted by randibear (Member # 11290) on :
mine didn't expand. and family never listened.
Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
Thank you!!!
Gave her all this info - different strains, surveillance criteria, etc. She is trying! She took the kid to an urgent care - unfortunately, not the one I recommended to her- and was predictably dismissed. Hope she keeps trying.
Posted by WPinVA (Member # 33581) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tincup: I forgot something! I forgot to say thank you for caring and trying to help your friends. Hope all goes well.
thank you for that. : )
and to all of you for all that you do!
Posted by hopingandpraying (Member # 9256) on :
I would also recommend she have their child evaluated by a LLMD. I sent you a PM with some names for VA (don't know specifically where this person lives).
My son had an oval red rash (did not expand as far as we know) on his thigh with many mosquito bites. We found out many years later it was a form of the bull's-eye rash. It took six years just to find out what was wrong with him and he has been ill now with Lyme and co-infections for seventeen years.
Here are some links with good information about Lyme and children:
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