LymeNet Flash: Yale doc decries open Lyme debate

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Posted by Greatcod on :

Unnecessarily condecending, in my view.

CCTimes 18/05
Newspaper no place for medical debates

It was brought to my attention that in the past few weeks you have been hosting a series of chewed-up views and statements about ''chronic'' Lyme and the appropriate ways to treat it.
Once again this serious problem was not discussed in a serious manner over the pages of a daily newspaper, rather than professionally, in a peer-reviewed medical or scientific magazine.
When there is such a discrepancy between two groups of professionals, it doesn't necessarily mean that one or the other is right or wrong. Both can be right or wrong, or totally miss the point. In similar circumstances the answer sometimes is somewhere in the middle, or hides in a totally different domain that both groups are ignoring or missing.
Rather than wasting time, energy and means in debating through the media, they should meet and discuss scientific matters with open minds, far away from the crowds, leaving old views behind and sticking to the facts. I am sure that the results of such a meeting will be way more productive than another duel in a daily newspaper.
Dr.K
Assistant clinical professor
of neurology
Yale University School of Medicine

Posted by Aligondo Bruce (Member # 6219) on :

I don't think it's condescending...I think it's a great idea...if allen steere and his buddies in the eis and idsa were willing to meet and have an open mind, I'm sure fallon and the ILADS crowd would love to talk in a scientific forum. They would jump at the chance. Look at if from this perspective: whereas ILADS and Fallon often cite Steere and other IDSA scientists in their own research and scientific writing, there has not been ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of fallon (who has conducted groundbreaking and nobel-prize level research on psychiatric lyme) being cited by steere, or anyone else for that matter, despite fallon having amassed well over a decade of intensive research into this field. So let me see...who's not keeping an open mind here?The fact of the matter is that it has been eis and idsa influence which has kept the lyme debate from actually being discussed in a scientifc forum. When the totally corrupt mark klempner recieves $5 million for a study which should have never been funded, designed totally for propaganda reasons and commits scientific fraud on a massive scale, and then receives a $100 million+ grant courtesy of anthony fauci at NIH, (the same eis operative anthony fauci who edits ID articles for harrison's internal medicine and for years has encouraged and supported allen steere's extremely warped version of lyme diagnosis and treatment in this key text), it sort of leaves people the impression that there is a massive effort (coordinated at very high levels and involving key government health officials) underway to cover up something, to keep minds closed about lyme disease. This is the worst crime in US medical history, I think that will become apparent in the future. And in this environment, an enviroment in which the sick and decrepit mengele shapiro is placed on the NIH's key scientific review board for infectious disease, it is very illogical to expect an "open debate" about neuroborreliosis.

quote:
Originally posted by Greatcod:
Unnecessarily condecending, in my view.
CCTimes 18/05
Newspaper no place for medical debates

It was brought to my attention that in the past few weeks you have been hosting a series of chewed-up views and statements about ''chronic'' Lyme and the appropriate ways to treat it.
Once again this serious problem was not discussed in a serious manner over the pages of a daily newspaper, rather than professionally, in a peer-reviewed medical or scientific magazine.
When there is such a discrepancy between two groups of professionals, it doesn't necessarily mean that one or the other is right or wrong. Both can be right or wrong, or totally miss the point. In similar circumstances the answer sometimes is somewhere in the middle, or hides in a totally different domain that both groups are ignoring or missing.
Rather than wasting time, energy and means in debating through the media, they should meet and discuss scientific matters with open minds, far away from the crowds, leaving old views behind and sticking to the facts. I am sure that the results of such a meeting will be way more productive than another duel in a daily newspaper.
Dr.K
Assistant clinical professor
of neurology
Yale University School of Medicine

Posted by Lymetoo (Member # 743) on :

Breaking this up so we can read it.

I don't think it's condescending...I think it's a great idea...if allen steere and his buddies in the eis and idsa were willing to meet and have an open mind, I'm sure fallon and the ILADS crowd would love to talk in a scientific forum.

They would jump at the chance. Look at if from this perspective: whereas ILADS and Fallon often cite Steere and other IDSA scientists in their own research and scientific writing, there has not been ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of fallon (who has conducted groundbreaking and nobel-prize level research on psychiatric lyme) being cited by steere, or anyone else for that matter, despite fallon having amassed well over a decade of intensive research into this field.

So let me see...who's not keeping an open mind here?The fact of the matter is that it has been eis and idsa influence which has kept the lyme debate from actually being discussed in a scientifc forum.

When the totally corrupt mark klempner recieves $5 million for a study which should have never been funded, designed totally for propaganda reasons and commits scientific fraud on a massive scale, and then receives a $100 million+ grant courtesy of anthony fauci at NIH,

(the same eis operative anthony fauci who edits ID articles for harrison's internal medicine and for years has encouraged and supported allen steere's extremely warped version of lyme diagnosis and treatment in this key text), it sort of leaves people the impression that there is a massive effort (coordinated at very high levels and involving key government health officials) underway to cover up something, to keep minds closed about lyme disease.

This is the worst crime in US medical history, I think that will become apparent in the future. And in this environment, an enviroment in which the sick and decrepit mengele shapiro is placed on the NIH's key scientific review board for infectious disease, it is very illogical to expect an "open debate" about neuroborreliosis.

Posted by Greatcod on :

I have come to believe the the Medical industry is compromised at every level, and that what is needed is more public exposure of its conflicted process.
I favor (and believe me, I know that no one cares what I believe)the inclusion
of journalists and patient representatives
at every level, sort of a medical consumerist movement. Maybe the posting of
conference proceedings on the Internet.
Medicine has used its elitism to exploit
the public's trust, and not just with Lyme.
I believe that any scientist with
an unpopular idea ought to feel obligated to go public with it, and that the media ought to feel obligated to explore medical disputes.
Even if genuine open mindedness existed, a majority decision is no way to settle scientific disputes.

Posted by minoucat (Member # 5175) on :

Greatcod -- really appreciate these updates. Thanks.

Posted by seibertneurolyme (Member # 6416) on :

Not exactly sure what to make of this --

Does anyone know if this is the Dr K LLMD neurologist that treats with IV gamma globulin -- I thought he was a full professor, but don't think hubby has his card anymore from several years ago.

meow ...

Bea Seibert

Posted by troutscout (Member # 3121) on :

I feel that this debate would be good.....

I didn't find this letter outrageous.

I'd love to see this happen.

Trout

Posted by lou (Member # 81) on :

Remember that the Klempner, Steere, Wormser crowd were the ones that shut out our side from the internat'l lyme conference in NY several years ago. They are the ones who refuse to discuss this and are incompetent in every way you can think of.

We are just cannon fodder in their eyes. Nothing we say is of any consequence to them.

It certainly does belong in newspapers and in legislatures and every other public forum, because the medical forum has shut out all reasonable discussion.

I have to agree that lyme is just one of the things wrong with the medical establishment. The more you look, the more icky things you can see. We pay for the research and the treatment, but we have no say at all in what goes on.

Posted by DR. Wiseass (Member # 6777) on :

OK - I've been on a mental vacation for awhile...and this is not exactly the point of this thread - but I'm going to use this as a time to ask some important questions - questions I could probably SEARCH and find answers to - but I'd rather get them the easy way:

Who is Kempler - other than obviously a Steerite? How/why did he get $5 million and for what purpose?

AND why/when will he be receiving $100 million from the fella at NIH?

I know it's important to know this stuff to be a good advocate...so if someone wouldn't mind 'debriefing' me -- sort of the "Idiot's Guide to Lyme Politics" - if you don't mind. (Hey - not a bad book title either, huh?)

Thx.

------------------
DR. Wiseass - not a real doc - just a real wise ass.
www.twistoflyme.blogspot.com

Posted by Foggy (Member # 1584) on :

Great, thx for the clip. Do you have a link for it?

Posted by GEDEN13 (Member # 4151) on :

i am getting the impression ,that there are alot of medical people at yale,saying that lyme is just a small bother,and not the true beast it really is.

am i right great cod?

and please do not leave here at lymenet.your input is needed.

are you one of the ted mcneil group? if so,i thank you for being at the forefront of getting the correct treatment for lyme.

even if not,i am seeing you as someoone we need here no matter..

thankyou for keeping us updated. be well , gary

------------------

Posted by Meg (Member # 22) on :

Gee, I agree, public discussion WOULD be very embarrassing to Yale 'Dr's'.

Posted by ticktox (Member # 6739) on :

Bea,
I think this is Dr K, the LLMD neurologist. He is not always consistant in the way he views Lyme. He's a big believer in post Lyme syndrome for example.

Posted by pq (Member # 6886) on :

Dr. K. is first, a yale locksmith for his career. His statements in the article as much reflect this.

[This message has been edited by pq (edited 26 August 2005).]

Posted by CaliforniaLyme (Member # 7136) on :

I actually thought it was a great letter and an effort to help us...!!

Posted by brainless (Member # 6771) on :

Why would Dr K put chronic in parentheses? To me, that questions its existance.

Someone in the know told me Dr k is getting squirreley.

In the unlikely event this great debate happens, I hope some of us pass out the Conflicts of Interest Report. To me, it doesn't get enough play.

If the debate does happen you can bet they'll have ten thousand nonLLMDs there to shout our docs down. When there's that much money at stake they're not likely to play fairly.

Posted by Greatcod on :

Asking The Lyme Establishment to sit down and be reasonable is sort of like asking
Hamas to have a couple of beers, and maybe a litle weed, chill out, and talk things over.
Ridiculeous on its face.
But what is condescending is that Dr. K
wants me to believe that academic medical
science is this passionate and earnest pursuit of the truth, done at an intellectual level civilians cannot begin to grasp.
Bayh-Dole has turned academic medical science into a profit center for the University and its researchers. The process is too corrupted to be trusted with our wellbeing. The media and the public need to be more involved in the validation of their claims. Non-academic physicians, who do most of the hands on medicine, need to be heard when they express concerns about the adverse impacts of "medical science", not relegated to the back of the bus as scientific inferiors. After all, they see the consequences much much sooner. And seem to be more genuinely concerned about patient well being.

Posted by troutscout (Member # 3121) on :

great Cod,

i love your last reply WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trout