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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » LYME DISEASE.....A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON?

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Author Topic: LYME DISEASE.....A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON?
daystar1952
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I'm hoping this isn't "too much" for this message board ...but I feel it's of critical importance to at least consider the following questions


LYME DISEASE.....A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON?

Posted By: Daystar
Date: Monday, 14 March 2005, 8:58 a.m.

First let's begin with a discussion of what properties constitute an effective biological warfare agent. The Media, The Centers For Disease Control and The Department of Defense would have us believe that the most threatening biological agents are lethal microbes which cause acute disease and then death...such as anthrax and smallpox. It appears that we are being intentionally misled as to where the real danger lies.

Government biological warfare documents speak of incapacitating agents as being the most effective at disabling a nation. When a population is infected with a lethal agent, it is very obvious that measures need to be taken such as quarantine, antibiotics, etc. This helps to curb and abort the epidemic.

A much more discreet, diabolical and effective method of disabling a country would be to employ a moderately infectious organism or combination (Russian Doll Cocktails) which would pass slowly through the population unnoticed. Some of the criteria for effective disabling agents are:

1. A biological agent which lacks objective signs that can be determined by medical testing. Many patients who are extremely ill with mycoplasma or lyme infections are told all their tests are normal therefore their problems must be all in their heads. Many people labeled with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia are told the same thing....if they would only get a new job, hobby or begin to excercise...then they would be fine.

2. An agent which would produce so many symptoms throughout the body that it would appear that the patient was malingering or faking. This criteria prevents the medical community from taking the disease seriously and in the meantime it passes quietly through the population being labeled as many separate diseases and conditions.

3. If the disabling agent is a combination of several diseases, some of which could be genetically engineered, then it becomes very difficult if not impossible to diagnose and treat.

4. Diseases which are spread by insect vectors are very much sought after. This makes an epidemic much easier to pass off as a natural event while concealing the identity of the perpetrators.

Dr. Donald MacArthur who was in charge of the developement and testing of biological weapons for the Pentagon had this to say at a Hearing before a Subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations in 1969.

"Incapacitating agents are a more recent developement and are largely in the R&D phase (in 1969). In fact the prime emphasis in agent R&D is on developing better incapacitating agents. We are synthesizing new compounds and testing them in animals. I should mention that there is a rule of thumb we use before an agent can be classified as an incapacitant, we feel that the mortality should be very low. Therefore the ratio of the lethal dose to the incapacitating dose has to be very high. Now this is a technical job. We have some of the top scientists in the country working for years on how to get more effective incapacitating agents. It is not easy." He also tells us that an incapacitating agent "imposes a greater logistic burden on the enemy when he has to look after the disabled people."

When a large portion of the population is sick and unable to work, this puts an enormous strain on the economy. I predict that if we do not make this issue an immediate priority, our country will indeed become quickly disabled.

The next logical question would be...does Lyme Disease and it's coinfections fit into this scenerio? Certain doctors and researchers feel that lyme disease and it's coinfections....such as mycoplasma fermentens (patented by the U,S. Army) are actually microrganisms with excellent credentials for qualifying as disabling biowarfare agents..

Much controversey surrounds the diagnosis and treatment of Lyme Disease and mycoplasma induced illnesses such as Gulf War Illness. Professor Garth Nicolson and Lieutenant Joyce Riley....among others...are seeing evidence everywhere that one cause of Gulf War Illness is microbial and that it is spreading to the families of the veterans and then on to the public in general. Many who become ill with this mycoplasma and or the lyme spirochete are being divided up into separate disease labels such as Multiple Sclerosis, Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Alzheimer's, Bi Polar Depression, Lupus,, ALS, etc. Most of these disease labels have no known definitive tests, causes or cures...only symptomatic treatments.

The Lyme Spirochete (borrelia burgdorferi..Bb ) and mycoplasma fermentens are both extremely pathogenic and can cause problems in every body system. In fact they present with symptoms so similar to each other that one has to wonder what the connection is. Sufferers of Lyme Disease are very often coinfected with mycoplasmas, babesia, erlichiosis, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and certain viruses. We are told that Lyme Disease has been around for hundreds of years and that ticks are filthy organisms which can spread many diseases in one single bite. This apppears to be true but is this due to a natural evolutionary process or is this sudden proliferation of countless coinfections a process which has had some help from biowarfare researchers? Are all these ticks carrying multipathogens naturally this way or are they the result of The Russian Doll Cocktail concept? Have ticks themselves been modified to endure harsh weather extremes? The ticks that carry Lyme Disease appear to be surviving in climates previously inhospitable to this species. In fact this disease is becoming endemic in many parts of the world at once and seems to be just as controversial everywhere it spreads. Why is this? If Lyme Disease is an unaltered ancient organism then shouldn't the medical community be aware of it's very diverse symptom complex? Shouldn't they know that it is a Great Imitator such as it's close relative Syphilis? Global warming always seems to be one of the excuses used when insect vectors cross their climate boundaries...but maybe it's due to genetic engineering. For example...Ades Japonicus is a genetically altered strain of mosquito and is purported to be the most efficient vector for West Nile Virus. It just happened to appear over here....out of it's native habitat...just in time to be an efficient vector for the West Nile Virus outbreak.

Borrelia burgdorferi...Bb...the causative agent of Lyme Disease presents with persistent infection and is many times incurable with the standard antibiotic regimes. While usually antibiotics are necessary in controlling and improving the lyme infection, it appears the organism may never be totally erradicated. It is known that there are techniques used to enhance bacterial resistance to antibiotics. So....while on the one hand the medical authorities are warning us of the dangers of the overuse of antibiotics and even limiting their valid applications...on the other hand they are creating and perhaps even letting loose antibiotic resistant germs.

In 1984 Secretary of State Casper Weinberger reported "Normally harmless, non disease producing organisms could be modified to become highly toxic or produce disease which an opponent has no known treatment or cure." (Soviet Military Power, 1984, p. 73.

Patients are being denied antibiotics for chronic persistent lyme. Doctors who are treating these chronic patients are being investigated and many have already had their licenses removed. Many are told they are malingering...that they either have antibiotic seeking behavior, depression or autoimmune disease.

One could say that Bb is most definitely an excellent candidate as a biological warfare agent. Bb has been shown to pass from mother to fetus. Many feel that it can be sexually transmitted. Why are no studies being done in this area? It has been found in semen, tears, breast milk and other insects in addition to ticks. With lyme disease there is no immunity. One can be infected and reinfected. The disease is responsible for neuropsychiatric problems, marriages are often disrupted and patients are losing their jobs and their homes. Many of our nation's children are being labeled with learning disabilities when the cause is often lyme disease. I am also wondering if vaccines are contaminated with Bb and or mycoplasmas? Is there any way vaccine batches can be independantly studied? Well, there should be , don't you think?

I recieved an abstract the other day put out by Brookhaven National Labs. I am including it below and will let readers come to their own conclusions. It sounds to me as if it is felt that Bb, erlichia and babesia are biological warfare candidates.

Abstract

Grant Number:
1U01AI056480-01

PI Name:
DUNN, JOHN J.

PI Email:
[email protected]

PI Title:
SENIOR SCIENTIST

Project Title:
Rapid Detection and Identification of Zoonotic Pathogens

Abstract: DESCRIPTION (provided by applicant): Zoonotic pathogens
including those transmitted by insect vectors are some of the most
deadly of all infectious diseases known to mankind. In the past, wars
and natural disasters were the main catalysts that promoted epidemics
of these ancient afflictions, which are normally transmitted by fleas,
lice and ticks.

Many of these diseases remain endemic in various regions of the world
and therefore pose serious threats to U.S. armed forces troops and
civilians who might enter endemic disease zones. A number of these
agents have been further weaponized and are widely recognized as being
the most significant biothreat agents.

Study of disease agents and development of rapid means for their
detection take on added importance in light of the use of anthrax for a
bioterror attack on the U.S.A. The aim of this proposal is to modify a
novel DNA-based methodology we have developed for profiling genomic
DNAs to permit rapid, cultivation-free differential detection and
identification of biothreat infectious agents in their natural
environments, including intermediate infected hosts, and clinical
specimens from humans or infected animals.

We plan to use Borrelia burgdorferi, the arthropod-borne etiologic
agent of Lyme disease and Yersinia pestis, the etiologic agent of
plague, as our principle test agents to work through the systems. We
will begin with B. burgdorferi since although it has a complicated
life-cycle involving both arthropod and animal intermediates, it is
easy to grow and we have extensive experience in working with it in
different complex environments including ticks, rodents and human
samples.

Thus it gives us the opportunity of detecting this pathogen in a
variety of complex environments. We also have significant experience
with characterizing and identifying subtle changes in the genome of Y.
pestis utilizing genomic signature tags. We will use these methods as
the foundation of new, high-throughput sequence-based systems to detect
zoonotic and/or vector-borne biothreat agents such as Yersinia pestis,
Francisella tularensis, Rickettsia ricketsii and other human pathogens
such as Ehrlichia and Babesia species.

This technology can ultimately be adapted as a sensitive method to
detect specific DNA signature sequences from both known and unknown
pathogens in a wide variety of complex environments and since it is
PCR-based it has the advantage that only minimal quantities of starting
material are needed for analysis.

Thesaurus Terms:
biohazard detection, communicable disease diagnosis, diagnosis design
/evaluation, genetic technique, high throughput technology, method
development
Borrelia, Yersinia pestis, cooperative study, informatics, molecular
biology information system, nucleic acid sequence
biotechnology, bioterrorism /chemical warfare, clinical research, human
tissue, laboratory mouse, microarray technology

Institution:
BROOKHAVEN SCIENCE ASSOC-BROOKHAVEN LAB

BROOKHAVEN NATIONAL LAB

UPTON, NY 11973

Fiscal Year:
2003

Department:

Project Start:
15-SEP-2003

Project End:
29-FEB-2008

ICD:
NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES

IRG:
ZAI1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is interesting to note that many of the first outbreaks of these diseases occurred in areas adjacent to military or biological testing facilities such as Plum Island. In fact Erlichia Chaffiensis, one of the tickborne coinfections, is actually named after Fort Chaffi where it was first isolated. The United States has a long history of conducting field experiments on it's own citizens without their knowledge or consent. The U.S. Code, Sec. 50 states it is legal to do so.

When I speak to others concerning the possibility that our country is already being intentionally decimated by several insiduous pathogens, they find it hard to believe that certain officials in our government may be allowing this to happen.

In relation to this concern I would like to include part of an e-mail which was sent to me by one of those government officials. I had written an article concerning the fear mongering surrounding the flu vaccine issue being promoted by The Powers That Be. Someone from the government saw my article and posted it to one of their private lists. A congressman on this list then temporarily added me to this list because they were discussing my article. It was being sarcastically criticized and I responded back to them. The gentleman who had been the most negative with his comments was surprised to find out I had been able to read his comments. Part of his response to me, which follows, is an indication of the mindset of some of our leaders.

He was asking me if I really thought that the article "Manipulation Through Fear...And It's Working" would really wake people up. While he agreed that the press was manipulating us....listen to his other thoughts. "If someone is stupid enough to wait in a 2 hour line for a flu shot or withdraw half of their child's college savings to buy 6 years worth of non perishable food and gas masks for their Y2K bunker, don't you think they deserve it? Perhaps the real question is, why are Americans so stupid and gullible to believe everything we read in the media, or to go further, every piece of forwarded chain e-mail we read spurting off the latest conspiracy theory? The way I see it, it's social Darwinism baby. And the more morons that leave this God forsaken earth, the happier I am. After all, I don't want to be sharing my rations with anyone in my WMD bunker. By the way, I am one of those "Powers that Be" :=) You must infiltrate before you can make the system capitulate."

I wrote back to him briefly expressing my sadness that he must have had many difficulties in life to harden his heart so.

I have spoken to a Red Cross pathologist who admitted that the Red Cross does not screen it's blood supply for Lyme Disease or Mycoplamsa Fermentens. Our Department of Defense knows that these pathogens are spreading through the population. Instead of taking preventative actions our government is actually blocking proper research, education, testing, diagnosis and treatment.

We need to make these institutions accountable for their crimes against humanity.


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lymie tony z
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I Don't doubt there is areason why a lot of us don't see the tick etc...

I even wrote the White House about the WMD already used against the citizens of the US.

Did'nt get any response...

The army was doing a study useing abx to treat Gulf War Syndrome...but someone in the "Powers that be" probably told them to stop and they did...

Some one is going to have to come clean some day about all of this like the chemist that blew the whistle on the cigarette industry...unfortunately it will probably be to late for most of us lymies...

This would be the "Mother of all weapons" referred to by Hussein.....it does'nt kill right away but makes it impossible to fight...mentally and physically......

Let's hope we all don't get it.......zman

------------------


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daystar1952
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Was that the study that Donta was involved with? The results of that recent study claimed that those with mycoplasma infections who were treated with doxycycline actually got worse ...not better. The symptoms given for the reason they didn't get better were nauseau and sun sensitivity. How silly is that? Those are side effects of the doxy itslf and cannot be used as an indication the test subjects were getting worse. One scientist I spoke with feels that the tesy subjects were switched around during the trials
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pq
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Heres one thread on the topic:
http://tinyurl.com/2lgqql

[ 05. February 2007, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: pq ]

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nan
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I posted the page below with a few of the examples of gov't experiments....absolutely horrifying. If you're interested, check it out...there's much more which will shock you!

Good job, Daystar...we need to be aware and you are probably right on target!

nan

http://www.freedomofchoiceinhealthcare.ca/Articles/Misc/Misc22.html

1950 Department of Defense begins plans to detonate nuclear weapons in desert areas and monitor downwind residents for medical problems and mortality rates.

1950 In an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Franciso. Monitoring devices are situated throughout the city in order to test the extent of infection. Many residents become ill with pneumonia-like symptoms.

1951 Department of Defense begins open air tests using disease-producing bacteria and viruses. Tests last through 1969 and there is concern that people in the surrounding areas have been exposed.

1953 U.S. military releases clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide gas over Winnipeg, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland, and Leesburg, Virginia. Their intent is to determine how efficiently they could disperse chemical agents.

1953 Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii


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daystar1952
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Thanks so much Nan and Pq.....good information! People need to know about all this. They need to know that unless some of these government agencies are completely overhauled (tear down and begin again)that we can no longer go to them expecting help....not for studies or accurate information....or protection. We need to inform others and create such a groundswell that hopefully then something good can take place. We need massive numbers of people...those with CFS, FM, ALS, M.S,Alzheimer's, Lupus...and the list goes on and on. The trouble is that many of these people are too sick to stand up for themselves. Still..even tho I am a realist I am also still an optomist and I feel that sooner or later "good" will win out.
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daystar1952
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P.S. We need a strategy but I'm afraid something like that could not be discussed openly on this or any other public forum.
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lou
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I am never convinced by these conspiracy theories and think incompetence and ignorance are usually the culprits instead. However, I do believe in accidents that we are not told about.

And that McArthur testimony sure makes me scratch my head.

When I first read the Brookhaven grant appl. info, it sounded like they were just using Bb as a test agent, to set up a process, not using lyme as an actual bioterrorism agent or detecting it as such.

But then, the list at the end that included other tick borne diseases like babesia and ehrlichia, really stumped me.

If we are alarmists, they have certainly given us enough reason to be.

That said, I still don't believe in this. Too many nightmares would result.

[This message has been edited by lou (edited 15 March 2005).]


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daystar1952
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We'll probably never know for sure Lou what has and is taking place but we need to ask these questions and demand answers until we are satisfied.

Prof Garth Nicolson and his wife Dr. Nancy Nicolson are coming out with a book which I recieved a peliminary e-mail copy of. I am half way through it. It is a story of their experiences with the research into Gulf War Illness, the harrassment and attempts on their lives ...for pursuing the truth of GWI along with exposing the mycoplasma experiments in the Huntsville prison and other places. The government is preventing the vets from getting proper treatment and that is obvious. Even the Gulf War Illness study done recently which said doxycycline did not help but made them all worse, I'm sure, was fixed. Other researchers feel the same...that the test subjects were switched in the middle of the study.

So...the book is called Project DayLily and is certainly a story of bravery and intrigue. It will be coming out in late spring and is a book the whole country needs to read. The government and research institutions are only made of up individuals and we know that many individuals only have their own best interests at heart. This book will show that even doctors and researchers can commit evil deeds. This is fact...not conspiracy. There has been a rash of dead microbiologists lately which also needs investigation.

I will let everyone know when the book comes out


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break the chains
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LYME DISEASE.....A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON?
ABSOLUTELY!
there was a time when i had heard the truth but would not accept it either. it came to a point however where something was so obviously wrong, it was glaring me in the face and i had to do some research. the mycoplasma has trails that go further up and out. what i have learned from opening my mind and researching abstract esoteric subjects is absolutely amazing and extremely uplifting and enlightening. the opposite of what it would seem at first glance, the truth shall set you free though as they say.

there is a patent for "pathogenic mycoplasma" which i recently found up on a goverment website. heres a little quote:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL
&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,242,820.WKU.&OS=PN/5,242,820&RS=PN/5,242,820

"O. Other Disease States in Which M. fermentans incognitus Has Been Implicated

In addition to AIDS, M. fermentans incognitus has been implicated in a number of other Disease states including Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Wegener's Disease, Sarcoidosis, respiratory distress syndrome, Kikuchi's disease, autoimmune diseases such as Collagen Vascular Disease and Lupus, and chronic debilitating diseases such as Alzheimer's Disease. M. fermentans incognitus may be either a causative agent of these diseases or a key co-factor in these diseases."

also if you look at the map on the cdc's website it reads like a map of a disease outbreak. its just one big spot eminating from plumb island ( right next to lyme, in the middle of connecticut )
this is where they were working with the the mycoplasmas, here are fort detrick in maryland.
also i have not been able to find any stats past 2000. i think its because the problem is getting so out of control. if you look at the bar graph it came out of no where and has been growing exponentially ever since.


.gov site: http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-405/lyme.jpg

[This message has been edited by break the chains (edited 15 March 2005).]


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daystar1952
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Thanks for the validation guys.....not that I want such horrible things to be true but if things are ever going to improve we do need to know the truth.

And Break the chains....I think I've had a similar experience to yours. It seems as if having Lyme Disease has opened a whole new world to me. So many pieces of the puzzle just started coming together for me...without even really struggling for it. I've become even more interested in the spiritual significance of all that is taking place...and...well....it's just hard to explain. I have my times when I am angry and frustrated when I see others suffering but for some reason I am not set into fear or depression by all this info. Something is going on....spiritually and it seems to me that there is something we are all going to learn from this....but what it is I'm not exactly sure. :=)


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daystar1952
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That is VERY interesting Sylvie. I wish there were some sort of document or articles or something that would say that about Tubingen. That may help connect some dots. If you have any more info could you e-mail me privately?

Thanks


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paulscha
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Only three or four days ago, there was a headline news story about the USDA (formerly in charge of Plum Island, which is now officially the property of the Homeland Security Adminstration) saying that it was vital to pursue more defense research related to zoonotic pathogens.

Obviously, even if one accepts assurances that such research is "strictly defensive," it involves cultivating very dangerous pathogens.

No matter what position one takes on the motives of the parties involved, the fact is that containment of these things is not perfect and even with 'good intentions' they can spread.

It matters that we think about this, because at the very least close, sustained public scrutiny of such research and related facilities is a necessity. Citizens of all countries, around the world, owe that to one another.

60 Minutes did a powerful piece not long ago about the pathetic security measures in place at nuclear facilities in the US, including those managed by the Pentagon. In drills, 'mock terrorists' succeeded in penetrating those facilities far more often than not. Yet remarkably little funding or political will has been expended on improving the situation.

The point being no matter where we are on the political spectrum, we simply cannot take for granted that the threats posed by this research are being adequately addressed.

So kudos to the commenters above for tackling a difficult, uncomfortable, but very important topic.

PS:

Someone told me the other day that it just seemed so implausible that such things would occur in my country, the US.

I had to remind them that we have a tradition of using pathogens against human populations dating back to deliberate infection of native tribes with smallpox.

The fact that such actions are "too terrible to think about" is part of what makes them so very dangerous.

I also share the view expressed in Daystar's piece, that discrete, incapacitating pathogens are more likely to be used (or poorly contained and inadvertently released) than overt, spectacularly lethal ones.

This is part of the technological age we live in, and if we want to survive our own cleverness we are going to have to find ways to limit, monitor and contain these activities. On that position, reasonable people can unite.


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treepatrol
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Read 1995's report.

Above Top Secret

Studies on Gulf War Illnesses: Chronic Infections

Garth Nicholson

Dead Scientists And
Microbiologists - Master List

LIST

Odds Against These Microbiologists Dying In 30 Months? 14 Billion To One

Odds Against These Microbiologists Dying In 30 Months


Kathleen M
Now theres something to chew on huh?

[ 28. August 2006, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

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lou
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The trouble is conspiracy theorists take some facts and then throw in totally fictional stuff, thereby making it easy to discount. If only they would stick to the facts.

For instance, someone above said the Tuskegee patients were deliberately infected. Don't think this is true. These people had syphilis and they knew it. Got it the usual way. The problem was that when a treatment became available, the researchers did not want to interrupt their study and mess up data, and so did not treat them. This is called a natural history study. The purpose is to document the natural course of the disease. Some might say there was already ample information on the subject because millions have had this disease.

Then there is the problem of weaponizing naturally occurring pathogens. The fact that it was weaponized does not mean that all the subsequent cases came from the weaponized version, since the pathogen is already on the loose. The great increase in deer population could account for an increase in lyme cases. Also, the lyme bacteria have been found in very old museum specimens, so this was not created by weaponeers.

Finally, who has definite proof of the switching patients and other nefarious practices in the gulf war studies? My own take on the Donta study is that treating anyone with one antibiotic for a year and not curing them does not prove the cause wasn't bacterial. Don't know if he said this, but the officials definitely took bacteria off the table at that point. Reminds me of Klempner and lyme.

Those results only demonstrate that doxy by itself didn't work in that length of time. Does not prove that myooplasma or any other bacteria did not cause or act with some other agent to cause the illness.

But is anybody still reading this post? More fun to throw around accusations without being very careful of the facts. X files was cancelled so here are its fans.

Alright, don't say I'm naive. More things go on than we know about, but playing fast and loose with the facts discredits legitimate inquiries into possible dangerous activities by officials and their agents.


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paulscha
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Lou, when you start out by labeling people with a insulting term like 'conspiracy theorist' it's hard to think that you mean to engage them in a respectful, adult way.

The last time I checked, America just invaded a sovereign nation because the threat of their (missing) biological and chemical weapons was so serious it could no longer be ignored.

The perception that biological weapons pose a grave danger is now apparently universal, whatever side of the political spectrum you look at, expressed daily by ordinary citizens, governments, and international organizations.

Plum Island is not a paranoid fantasy but a fact, one which concerned many of the facility's Conneticut neighbors before Lyme disease had even been discovered.

Zoonotic pathogens pose unique containment problems. Because the "delivery system" is a living organism, that seeks instinctively to propogate, 'research' pathogens are in constant danger of escaping containment altogether.

Yes, deer populations are growing, but Lyme is growing faster and in parts of the world where deer populations are not much of a factor. Yes, emerging diseases can arise naturally. But no, that doesn't mean they all do.

What the Tuskeegee experiments and several other well-documented abuses indicate is a mindset that is perfectly capable of contemplating things that most of us find morally abhorrent.

Some might say that we need that sort of mindset, to defend ourselves against those who don't share our scruples. On some level, the value judgments we reach though are not the point.

The point is that research into zoonotic pathogens for deployment against civilian populations has been carried out in the US, at Plum Island and other facilities, and this is an inherently risky business.

When you label people who raise such concerns 'conspiracy theorists' you only impede the rational discussion you apparently feel is lacking.


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duke77
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duplicate

[This message has been edited by duke77 (edited 16 March 2005).]


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duke77
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Lets face it of all of the nasty stuff out there why would anyone use Lyme as a bioweapon? It is way too slow to be an effective weapon.

If that is the case, and Lyme was being genetically mutated to be used as a weapon, someone has the cure then. They would not release something that could come back to bite their son or daughter in the ass.


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lou
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Paul, did you look at the links posted by treepatrol?

I don't think I was the one who introduced conspiracy theory to the discussion. Don't you think that is what is being described here?

And why are you offended at a person who asks for a rational discussion without baloney that discredits the discussion? That is the only way to be taken seriously. Don't make it easy for people to shove problems into the realm of fantasy.

I do think that ethics is totally left out of some scientific endeavors. There was a book published a while back, which I have not been able to locate, titled something like "The trouble with making medical scientists the new priests." Too many folks are genuflecting to scientists without asking any questions. I say this as a person with some training in science.

In the past I have avoided joining in discussions on lyme and bioweapons. Think I will go back to this policy. Too much heat and not enough light.

[This message has been edited by lou (edited 16 March 2005).]


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dontlikeliver
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Before I knew my "cfs" was Lyme, a few years back I thought that mycoplasma was the cause of my Lyme, along with Brucellosis.

Along the way, I was put onto this website/radio show which discusses these kinds of topics sometimes. (I think, I only listened once or twice and that was a few years ago).
http://www.thepowerhour.com/

Now, before people jump on me, I will make it clear that because i've posted this link does not mean I agree with everything they say on this site (I don't), but Mycoplasma is one topic on the homepage and I am sure that Garth Nicholson frequently talked about on there.

[This message has been edited by dontlikeliver (edited 16 March 2005).]


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CA quest
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We know that Lyme disease has existed for a long time.

We know that Lyme disease (and OTHER tick borne infections) have proliferated in the past x number of years (where x is 20 yrs +/-).

The question is WHY?

My answer is simple: the number of ticks has increased....maybe due to global warming or pesticides that knocked out previous tick predators or maybe more complex...but we KNOW that the number of ticks has increased...Worldwide. That is more than sufficient reason to account for increased tick borne infections in people.

We also know that the spirochetes have been found in cloacal material of mallard ducks & that beagle puppies can contract it from close association with each other(urine or other bodily fluids?)......So means of transmission other than ticks is also feasible. But the ticks are the chief & most competent of vectors for Bb et.al.

I grew up in Dutchess County NY (Poughkeepsie) and traversed the countryside (where houses now exist) as an intrepid child explorer. I never...ever... saw a tick. I associated with horses & never ever saw a tick. Now Dutchess is one of the most endemic areas for Lyme....I bet people see ticks there now.

CA Quest


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daystar1952
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As I mentioned before lyme may have been around a long time but that does not mean that it has not been genetically modified. Biowarfare researchers know how to isolate the toxins from one germ and insert it into another germ. This makes it very difficult to diagnose and treat.

Don Scott tells of a member in his organization who worked on Biological warfare in the Korean War.They specifically worked with Brucellosis. When he was released from the service...he and others who worked with him were given a document that stated if within 2 years they developed a creeping like paralysis or Mulitple Sclerosis type symptoms that it would be deemed service related and they would be compensated. Sounds as if they know what causes M.S.

These men worked with brucellosis and were able to remove the toxin and make it into a cystalized form which could be inserted into other organisms. I had a 1952 Merk Manual and it lists the symptoms and description of Brucellosis...especially the undulating relapsing type and it was exactly what my supposed lyme symptoms were. There were additional symptoms also. I spoke with a prominent microbiologist who is very familiar with this subject and he feels that there is something "different " about Bb but that it would take extensive genetic testing to figure it out.Could the toxin from brucellosis have been added to Bb? I don't see anything wrong with asking this question.

If the current strain of Lyme is an "old" disease...our doctors and healthcare systems should be very familiar with all aspects.They are reluctant to even just compare it with what they already know about Syphilis. I always say this....they are not stupid. Individual family doctors may be in the dark due to lack of education on this subject but those higher up know this is spreading and they are denying treatment and making diagnosis, testing and education impossible.


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oxygenbabe
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All posters are probably right.
Lyme has been around a long time. It probably, along with other bugs, has been bioweaponized and nymph ticks explored as a vector. Even if something else was bioweaponized (brucella), bacteria freely exchange genes and so, it could've happened that way.

Lyme is also more prevalent because we've moved into deer habitat while getting rid of any of their predators, creating a ridiculous situation where there are 25 million deer in this country where there used to be 500,000. So no doubt the epidemic of ticks is partly due to us moving into "bambi's" domain, making nice "food" for "bambi" (flowers, gardens etc). We sit here and eat cows and chickens and goats and sheep, but we won't kill sweet little bambi, that would just be evil . And of course we don't want bambi's natural predators, cougars, in our backyard either.

The question is, did the people who bioweaponized bugs that snuck into the "wild" (ie society at large) also figure out antidotes? They could easily do so. Why NOT do it? They could still keep their programs "secret."

WOrse is probably to come someday. We've got an active bioweapons program, continued sloppy safety standards, an increasingly global world. Maybe it'll be an asian bird flu or maybe it'll be something we made ourselves.


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cmichaelo
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I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but I get the feeling that some think that Lyme disease is a relatively new disease.

There's much circumstantial evidence to suggest the contrary, namely that LD has existed for centuries.

The only reason that an increasing numberof LD cases have been reported over the past 25 years is simply awareness.

And what started the diagnosis is obviously Steere's mapping of the symptomatic outbreak in Lyme, CT.

Why was there an outbreak in Lyme, CT?

Yes, that could very well have been some experiment.

But as a biological weapon, it seems to me that LD is a pathetically poor weapon for several reasons:

Main reason being that the incubation time is so large that the disease eventually will spread throughout the world.

Secondly, it's morbidity is sort of minor compared to many other infectious diseases. I mean, you don't really die of LD. Your life is affected, but not to the extent that you can't defend your country.

So, I don't know why LD would ever have been considered for weaponry. Did the government think it could mutate Bb into a very dangerous bug? Perhaps? But what methods did they have for doing so back in the 70's? Seem strange that they would hone in on Bb.

Just my 2c.

Michael


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treepatrol
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Up for anything new? [Big Grin]

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

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Tj33
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I think that folks give the government too much credit for conspiracies.

I do believe that there is a conspiracy, not by the government, although the government is a party to it.

The conspiracy is by the food manufacturing industry and the drug peddlers.

Over the last 50 years man made cooking oils and margarine (butter substitute)were introduced into the world wide human diet.

This slop turned out to contain mostly transfats, which has been discovered recently to be extremely bad for the human body.

Transfats have no nutritional value to the body. When ingested the body cannot process them and stores them as fat.

But, the problem is this fat cannot be burned by the body. Therefore it remains.

So you have a body that is starved for natural animal fats that are required to provide fuel and building materials for the cells, brain, and immune system.

Plus, the starved body wants to eat all the time hoping to get the natural fats it needs...

The anti-natural fat propaganda has caused the raise of strange diseases like Lyme, superstrep, cancer, Aids and strange brain malfunctions like the sudden rise of hyperactive children.

Look at the above charts. There is a correlation between the time high usage of low natural fat slop begin and the raise of Lyme..

Then to make matters worse, the drug peddlers pump out the anti-cholesterol lies and phony studies by doctors on the drug peddlers' payrolls..

Thus we have Statin drugs, the biggest money maker for the peddlers in history.

They "forget" to tell everyone that cholesterol is the fuel for the immune system and building material for body cells.

Plus, they "forget" to list the side effects of the statin drugs like high cancer risks, brain, and organ damage to the body..

To sum up, the driving force for these lies is money. Transfats are very cheap to make. The cooking oil slop sells at a 80% profit.

Natural fats are expensive to buy and expensive to package (most have to be refrigerated).

Just plain old greed for money is the driving force.

Tj

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Greatcod
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Its pretty straightforward that the military studies each and every pathogen that might impact its troops in wartime. In WWII for instance, more troops were taken out of combat by disease than by the Japanese. Serious business.
Any study of a pathogen by the military would involve study of the benefits of weaponizing it for use against the enemy as well.
Many of the Steere camp researchers are connected to American biowar undertakings.
The military has always been involved in black operations, and so has the CIA.
When Harry Truman was Vice President, he had no knowledge of the Manhatten Project. He found out only when he became President.

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Lymetoo
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If pq shows up here.......PQ: Would you please use www.tinyurl.com to shorten that URL so we can read this thread?

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Opinions, not medical advice!

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grace1
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quote:
Originally posted by break the chains:
 -

A 2004 map, compared to the 1999 map posted a while back. The semicircle around Lyme/Plum Island has increased a bit. As has the cluster around Minnesota/Wisconsin. I wonder if that is in some bird migration path or something.

 -

(from http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/lyme/ld_Incidence.htm )

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grace1
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I don't think it mentions Lyme disease, but nevertheless, interesting and scary...

U.S. Bioweapons program

The Living Weapon
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/weapon/

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david1097
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Take a look a these

http://www.birdnature.com/flyways.html

and

http://www.i-maps.com/Qdma/frame/default1024_ie.asp?C=48449&LinkID=0&NID=0&cmd=map&TL=100000&GL=010100&MF=11000

Well guess what, the dear population does not track the human incidence rate. The birds are a more likely culprit and then on to the mice.

PS. If you read the BNL proposal carefully, they use lyme as an example. I am quite sure the bio agents they are talking about are tuleremia and Q fever, Two well known bio agents that have been researched for decades by both advanced and primitive weaponeers. There are at least a dozen other "name brand" bio agents.

Lyme is not a good choice, Leptospirosis is far better. It can live in the water (easy to contaminate food and water supplies), is transmissible via aerosolized water, has both pathogenic and non-pathiogenic variants (making harder to figure out in a combat situation), can produce very severe incapacitating symptoms quickly, and is fatal only a small percentage of the time. Years ago there was even a plot on the show "quincy" (jack klugman) about the use of a weaponized version of it that was used by some secret agents to silence people (AKA polonium 210 type if affair) but make it look like cirossis of the liver. That show must be at least 25 to 30 years old by now.

Also keep in mind....
Most of the of weapons work goes into the delivery method, production cost reduction/optimization and stabilization of the agent for long term storage/ability for rapid deployment.

On the conspiricy side of things... Forget Lyme, I would be more interested to find out what happened with the mailed anthrax attack investigation. The trail appears to have completely cold....

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Geneal
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My first thought upon reading the articles re: Lyme as a bio-weapon was "Great...I always wanted to grow up to be a guinea pig!!"

Who knows......Our government only lets us know what they want us to.

Yes, there is freedom of the press and all that, but do you honestly think the government would let someone tell their secrets?

Those persons would probably disappear......permanently.

My Mom is from Germany. Born during WWII. My grandmother was a prisoner of war of both the Russians and Polish. Unspeakable horrors were committed to her and upon her.

When Germany split, half my family was stuck in the Eastern side, the communist side.

Having this backround, and the fact that my mom had to become a citizen of the US, I know that we live in the greatest country in the world.

Howeever, we know that the technology we are allowed to see is easily 10-20 years old.

Just think of all the money that is created by chronic illness with respect to meds/office visits/blood work. We still shop. We still pay taxes. We still contribute to the economy.

If the President of the US was dx with Lyme disease, I believe a cure would be found fairly quickly. Not that they would share it with us common folk cheaply or at all.

Lyme=Bio-warfare?????? I am not a conspiracy person, but I have to admit, the thought is not without merit.

Geneal

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grace1
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^^ yep, the atlantic flyway goes exactly between the lyme clusters in minnesota and new england.

^ we need a monica lewinsky tick.

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