However, there's no difference between the MRI taken this month and the one taken 2 years ago. Everything is still there, but not worse: ostheoarthritis of the spine, spinal stenosis, DDD and double disc herniation leading to a double sciatica.

My neurosuregeon's opinion is to go ahead with the surgery. He says Lyme doesn't affect the back (I have my doubts, since I've read several documents that go against that)

My LLMD thinks the worsening of my symtoms may be part of herxing. Surgery may not help and I'm in no shape to handle back surgery right now.

Fine, but if I have to wait 2 years to see if Abx treatment is working for Lyme, and I really have a back problem, I may have jeopardized my chances to ever be able to walk again.

Seriously, I don't know what to do. I cannot stand more than 15-20 minutes and walking is HELL.

I had bad pain there during abx treatment for lyme there and other places. If it were me get the llmd to prescribe some painkillers and keep getting treated for lyme.

Personaly I wouldnt get the operation until lyme was well out of the way.

I had some bad sciatic pain a couple of time once I laid on the floor and cried for three days and nights got some percocets and in three days was able to start walking and increased my walking everyday make sure you do the walking on unlevel ground not paved.

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Originally posted by treepatrol:

Personaly I wouldnt get the operation until lyme was well out of the way.

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It is possible to have lyme AND back problems. If you're in that bad of shape, you probably need surgery.

I did myself a grave disservice by writing off pain in my lower back to lyme. The warning "attacks" that I ignored became more frequent and severe. Finally one day in March 2003 a horrific pain coursed through my butt and down my right leg, sending me to the floor. The left side went within 20 minutes. I truly could not get up. The L4-L5 disk had ruptured.

I lost sensation between my legs, so had an "emergency" laminectomy so that I would not lose my eliminative functions.

I did great after surgery, went to Europe 3 months after surgery, though my lyme was set back considerably.

I was never given any guidelines for getting in and out of bed, motions to avoid, etc. so when my back started getting sore again in December, I started physical therapy.

Long story short, I reruptured the disk doing my PT exercises at home. The pain was several times worse than the original (I didn't know it got worse than a 10 -- screaming at the top of your lungs pain.)

I decided I'd really try to avoid surgery this time and try to let it subside on its own, but at 14 months out, I'm on a plateau that's just not high enough. I'm seriously considering surgery again since the sciatica and leg spasms are waking me up 6-8 times a night.

Certain antibiotics, the quinolones (cipro, levaquin), can cause tendon rupture, even after a 10-day course for sinus. Our disks are held in place by tendons. If you're on one of those, you should switch immediately.

But don't sit around in agony thinking that getting over lyme (and how many of us have done that recently?) is going to make your herniations go away.

It was the best thing I ever did. At the same time...right after the operation I started on antibiotics. Had lyme for about 8 years but didn't know it. The opertion was a miracle. About 5 years later I'm still doing well.

However. I was off antibiotics for about a year and I started having bad neck problems, weak arms and legs, etc. Went to Chicago Institute of Neurology and Neurosurgery . They were going to tentatively operate on another mild disc bulge but told me to go home for 3 months first. In the meantime my lyme doc put me back on antibiotics. The 3 months were up and I went back to have the operation. An LLMD wanted me to have a sample of the disc material to Paul Duray to look for lyme. They did a myleogram in Chicago to make sure before the operation and the disc had gone back in so no surgery. I feel it was the antibiotics. I also feel that lyme caused my back problems and does cause the back problems of many people who don't know they have lyme.

I would have jumped at the chance to "solve the problem", but somehow I knew there was more to it than one surgery would solve.

Instead, I opted for manual therapy and prolotherapy. Manual therapy to align me (muscles, bones, organs, nerves, etc.) and prolotherapy injections to strengthen the ligaments and tendons that support the vertebrae. Both have helped me immensely. And now that I am being treated for the Lyme, I feel that I'm on the right road.

I know a couple of people that had back surgery and it worked for awhile, but they both had to have additional surgery *above* the site where the first surgery was. They found out that if there is a disc fusion done in surgery, that it puts a lot more strain on the vertebrae above it. It's interesting, both are now getting prolotherapy injections.

I agree that spinal fusion is a slippery slope, but a simple laminectomy does not involve fusion.

Surgery is rarely the single answer for anything -- supportive measures, physical therapy of some sort, and tips to prevent reinjury are also needed, but surgery should not be discounted as an option.

I would definitely try the prolo first. Go to Amazon.com and find a copy of Dr Ross Hauser's book "Prolo Your Pain Away" Many people have avoided surgery with this method of treatment.
http://www.prolodoc.com/faber4.htm http://www.prolodoc.com/zale.htm http://www.prolotherapy.com/ http://www.prolodoc.com/
Hear success stories: http://www.prolotherapy.com/proloaudio.htm

Rate prolotherapy: http://www.remedyfind.com/rm-715-Prolotherapy.asp

How do other treatments rate? http://www.remedyfind.com/hc-Osteoarthritis.asp

Articles on prolotherapy:
http://www.prolotherapy.com/documents.htm
http://www.prolotherapy.com/articles/banks.htm http://www.getprolo.com/
http://www.docbridges.com/prolo.htm

I hope your pain is alleviated one way or the other. I know it's miserable.

His back surgery was very simple (he chose a superb surgeon) and he recovered completely. A piece of the herniated disk was pressing against the spinal nerve, and he sustained permanent damage from that -- 15 years later, the muscle that the compressed nerve ennervated is still much smaller than the same muscle on the other leg.

By the time he had the surgery the pain was extreme and constant, and he could get no relief from pain killers, manual therapy, or anything else. The relief after surgery (and ever since then) was immediate.

I, on the other hand--had very painful low back problems/sciatica and a bulging disk (definitely not herniated). For me, manual therapy, stretching, and treating LD&Co has entirely resolved the problem with no surgery.

To say that Lyme doesn't affect the back, when it has been amply demonstrated that it affects all other joints and muscles, is absurd.

But your LLMD may be absolutely right -- you may not be in good shape for surgery right now. Can you back off meds, reduce the herxing, and see what's up? Possibly get the surgery then? My husband has had several surgeries; when he was very symptomatic and herxing, the recovery time was very long after the surgery.

My first recommendation would be to get a second opinion, this time from an orthopaedic surgeon, so you can get a slightly differing viewpoint. Any time that one is considering surgery, a second opinion is very important, especially in people as "complicated" as us, with Lyme.

Also, there have been numerous patients at our practice who have Lyme and are being treated for back pain. If nothing is found through testing to be a mechanical cause of pain, they often are referred back to their LLMD to work on ways to control the symptoms.

I had an episode of horrendous sciatica myself and after trying physical therapy and muscle relaxants, etc. with no success, I tried acupuncture on the advice of one of the doctors that I work for. In my case (and I have seen others post about success with this as well) acupunture was a HUGE help. It is very effective for pain control. My six months of severe pain was under control within one month of regular acupuncture treatment and has not returned.

About the problems that you mentioned that you have. They are pretty extensive and can cause a tremendous amount of pain, with or without Lyme. The degree of your herniation and level of spinal stenosis will make a big difference as to whether or not a surgeon feels it is time to operate. Having one of these things could lead a person to surgery and having the numerous things you have going on certainly could warrant surgery. Again, I would just get another opinion to see if another surgeon agrees with your surgeon.

Lyme can certainly complicate everything that we do medically and it is often hard to differentiate what is causing particular troubles. In your case, it sounds like you have some documented mechanical reasons for your pain, so please do not discount that and think it is Lyme alone. You might be less symptomatic if you did not have the Lyme to deal with on TOP of those problems, but they are serious enough to cause severe disability on their own.

Again, I would look into another surgical opinion. You may find that surgery is the right option and you could relieve yourself of some severe symptoms. If so, you may find yourself stronger and better able to fight the Lyme once you are literally back on your feet!

Now, if the mri is no worse and you trust your neurosurgeon - does that mean he does or doesn't think you need surgery? Sorry, in my case with my neck I have much more pain than my herniated disks 'should' cause but my mri's also have not changed.

So, I won't have surgery at this point on my neck.

But I also had a ruptured disk in my back and had surgery last year and it was immediately obvious that the nerve pain i was having was from the back and not lyme as once the pieces of disk were cleaned up, the numbness and pain were gone.

One thing that did happen was when the surgeon got in to repair the disk he said my disk/spine was so degenerated, it was like someone twice my age - maybe from lyme? So who knows if it would be improved with abx.

I wish I, or someone could give you an answer but I think the idea of a second opinion is good and then your gut feeling is also the best thing to go on.