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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Has anyone successfully treated chronic lyme without any ABX?

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Author Topic: Has anyone successfully treated chronic lyme without any ABX?
Nutmeg
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I am really loathe to take ABX for any reason. Still waiting for a real diagnosis of LD and/or co-infections and my first appointment with a LLMD, but I am researching treatments in the meantime.

Just wondering if anyone has been able to avoid antibiotics completely, or maybe only used them for short-term, and relied completely on alternative treatments/combinations like salt/vit C, Samento and other herbals, rife, etc., etc. with success.

Thanks for any info,
Nutmeg


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pq
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Don't even think about it! Abx = King!
Try this with no abx, and you'll surely be a candidate for "MegaNuts". I like nutmeg, but not meganuts, as there are too many regular nuts as it is.

[This message has been edited by pq (edited 16 May 2005).]


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lymster
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NOPE!

No one that I know or that I heard about it.

Some might be doing alternative treatments but in most cases is after abx tretament.

I really think abx is the way to go, at least as an initial treatment (2-3 years) and I also believe that treatment of co-infections is a MUST to be succesful.

Hey, I am in WA too!

Take care, you might not get a "REAL" diagnosis of LD but REGARDLESS OF I strongly suggest that you see a LLMD as soon as possible

Good luck!
Lymster


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lla2
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nope need the abx as the first line of defense to kill most of hte keets THEN you can use alternative meds along with the abx or alone to build immune system and clean up the mess of abx etc..

without abx you won't kill hte proper form...we've all tried it..you'll be wasting precious time while hte keets go deeper into your cns.

Lisa


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lymelady
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Abolutely,
Antibiotics are not for everyone. They made me so sick I just about threw in the towel. It is going to take me a long time to repair the damage those drugs did to me, but not everyone is the same.

Of course start with them, but if you happen to be a person who simply cannot take them there are other options.

Listen to Bryan. Rife has already helped me tremendously, not to mention herbs with rife that can help is so many ways.

Good luck
LL


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beachcomber
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I know of 2 people who are doing this without abx. They both seem to be Managing the disease, not curing it. But hey, they have pretty productive lives.
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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by lymelady:
Abolutely,
Antibiotics are not for everyone. They made me so sick I just about threw in the towel.

Lyme treatment is rough! You have to go through to get to the other side.

I think Rife is a great alternative from what i've read....don't have mine yet. But, I wouldn't want to risk NOT treating this with abx first. Just my opinion....probably won't change anybody else's!

------------------
oops!
Lymetutu


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Cap
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I was on them for about three years, made big strides, but after that three year mark I started to go downhill again despite being on them. If you don't get cured in the first two years IMO, then the drugs start to do damage to the body that will allow the infection to fester.

I am trying other approaches at this point. I have been on and off this site for a while, and I have seen many people 'cured' from ABX, some 'cured' through other treatments. But I have seen many people not 'cured' from ABX or other approaches. Since our DNA and environment vary wildly from one another, everybody has different needs.

My Homeo says she put a number of cases in remission without ABX. And that is true for many people here, you just have to look for the posts.

Considering most people in America carry Lyme (and they did a test in Germany where 60% of the people carried Lyme), it's just the unhealthy ones that usually end up getting sick from these things.

Honestly, I think the reason why cases of Lyme are increasing is not due to spreading of the disease, I think as a nation, a combination of diet, lifestyle and toxins weakens the immune system to a point where these critters take over.

God, I was at Red Robin today for lunch, and it's a sea of middle aged/young people with distended guts and thunder thighs, inhaling down large glasses of Coke, with a side of fries like there is no tomorrow. And they are probably considered "average" people.

No wonder why we are so sick and why Lyme is spreading. It's not the Lyme that's spreading, we as a race are getting weaker! (Believe me, Keets where here long before Plum Island.)

What, do people think since Lyme was discovered in 1970something that that's when it started? Please.

Do what you feel is right for you. But if you have Lyme, try ABX. But if ABX does not knock it out in the first couple of years, then just be careful, because ABX is a very toxic drug that will break down the immune system and the flora over time.


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Biting Back
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"Still waiting for a real diagnosis of LD and/or co-infections and my first appointment with a LLMD"

I'm hoping you've already made the appointment with a LLMD. You don't want to do your own research too long.


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Nutmeg
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Thank you all. That was quite a variety of opinions I appreciate all of them.

To answer the question many of you had, yes, thank you, I do have an appointment scheduled with a LLMD one week from tomorrow.

I have my Igenex WB results because I requested an advance copy over 2 weeks ago from my regular alternative MD's office. He's the one who ordered the test, but it was a 3-week wait to get in to see him for a follow-up appt to get the official results, so I haven't even seen him yet. That's why I've had so much time to research this. The appointment is later this week. I want to see what my regular doctor's interpretation of the results is and what he has to say about treatment and see if he refers me to the LLMD, but I don't plan to continue going to him for further diagnostics and treatment.

I don't have any recollection of a tick bite years ago when I lived back east, but anything is possible. I've been sick with fibro and other things at least since a car accident and other traumas about 25 years ago. The WB showed a lot of indeterminate bands and a few positives, but the overall test was equivocal. I need an experienced doctor to help me sort this out.

Bryan, I got your book the other day, so I skipped ahead to the chapters on alternatives and careful use of antibiotics. Thanks so much for putting that together. I look forward to reading more. I have a feeling there is a rife machine in my future. Seems like the way to go, with other modalities for support.

As it stands now, I'm not that sick, and am fairly functional since I've done so much alternative healing, supplements, and lifestyle changes, and spiritual work in the past 8 years. There is a certain plateau I've not been able to get past, so that's what keeps me searching for answers. I know once I start treating whatever this is, that all could change. I hate to think about taking ABX and wrecking the gut I have worked so hard to heal

Many thanks,
Nutmeg


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valymemom
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Many, many months ago I heard one of the famous llmd's speak.....he said that two patients he saw had to quit work due to LD and saw him.

They did not choose to go on abx but worked with someone (a trainer), I think and developed an exercise program that somehow allowed a type of remission.

He did not talk about their complete diagnosis (coinfections, etc.) but did say they got themselves to a level where they could return to work.

I imagine not an easy journey for them.....like those with abx.

You will find advice and "tried and true" experiences here/help for the mind, body and soul.


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TheCrimeOfLyme
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I would have died without abx. They gave me my life back.
Unfortunately now, I CANT take them. I AM going to try one more round, but I have too many other issues going on that PREVENTS me from taking them.

If you CAN take them, do it. Thats just my opinion. I would do anythign right now to be able to TAKE them.


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beachcomber
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Crime:

I understand your plight. ABX have been both a godsend and a nightmare for me. I have to go off of them periodically to heal my gut. I think it sets me back a bit. Wish I was able to stay on a course of abx for 2 years, or at least until symptoms are gone.

I am on a break of sorts right now. Hope your next round goes well.

Bc


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Alexbabets
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Simply....Lyme disease is caused by a spirochete. Syphilus is caused by a spirochete...these spirochetes are cousins.
You wouldn't treat Syphilus only with alternative medicine and expect an improvement However you can treat syphilus with antibiotics and expect a marked improvement. So why would you expect to use alternative medicine alone to treat Lyme disease?

Alex


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GiGi
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I had a total of 2-1/2 months of IV Rocephin and a few weeks of orals following that. I was as bad after that as I was on day one.

Then I met Dr. K. Lyme Disease: A look beyond Antibiotics. I have posted this, one of his lectures, several times.

I totally quit abx for several months, because every single one blocked my Autnonomic Nervous System = no healing taking place.

We addressed not just a handful of co-infections as most of you do. We addressed all toxin issues, all viruses, all parasites, all fungi, all molds. Whatever means are out there, we used it.

Everything I ever swallowed in form of remedies or medicines was ART tested before I did so. I probably had another 3-4 months antibiotics spread over a couple of years, never longer than 3-4 weeks at a time.

My treatment was always combined with KMT22 (I used the forerunner of 22) electromagnetic interventions, using specific microbial inhibition frequencies (the bugs do no longer make babies!). These are not Rife treatments! I would not go near any of these so-called Doug machines or knock-out Rifes as some of the people have done. They scare the daylights out of me. I do not care for the powerful BeamRay's either. I follow my doctor's advice in this regard.

We were always using toxin elimination programs alongside the KMT22 and learned to live a good and healthy life style.

Heavy metal detox and dental toxins have to be addressed if they are present. A decaying dying tooth or root canal does not contribute to good health and a remaining wisdom tooth cavitation (which sooooooo many people have) serves as a feeding ground for the bugs. Neither does a brain full of mercury or an endothelium lined with mercury. Or a body riddled with nickle or arsenic.

So unless all is addressed, I think a cure for Lyme remains a daydream.

This is how I got well - totally well - This is how my husband, who once was nothing but a bobbling Parkinson Lyme patient, many times not walking at all, now at the age of 80, is long out of the wheelchair and
going to the gym, driving, running errands, and doing things few 80 year-olds can do at sixty.

So no one will ever convince me that there is no cure -- or no cure without several years of antibiotics. Short term abx --absolutely necessary. He had less abx than I did. Maybe a total of 4 months spread out over several years while all the other microbial infections were dealt with, via other remedies and KMT22.

He also has been using the KMT22 - without a herx nor a pain. The current has to be in a biological range and thus it will go anywhere - especially the brain. The brain was my and my husbands's most affected area. Mercury in the brain, Lyme bugs in the brain, viruses in the brain, parasites in the brain............. on and on.
ART is a wonderful diagnostic tool and finds it all, no matter where; in minutes.

Read the "Lyme Disease: A Look Beyond Anntibiotics" given as part of a lecture by our doctor to a few hundred doctors, including LLMD's, recently at a Lyme Conference in San Francisco. It really is a replay of how we got well and how many others are finding their way back to a good life.

It takes patience - on the part of the patient and on the part of the doctor. And above all, a whole body approach. Antibiotics playing a very minor and limited part. And if your Family Life needs repair, start doing. Emotional upheaval throws your body chemistry into a disaster zone where there can be no healing!

I was semi-paralyzed.
I lived with a horrible brain fog.
I ended up with morphin before I met our doctor.
My thinking faculties had all but disappeared. I was in horrible pain and a mess. My house was a mess.

I am now in my 74th year --- and feeling better than ever. No, don't tell me it can't be done without years of antibiotics.

Anti = opposing, against
Biotic = relating to life
and you are killing more than just a few spirochetes!

Abx can be a lifesaver. But there are many more and better ways to go. It is happening every day.

Take care.


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Nutmeg
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GiGi,

Thank you so much for your inspiring and thoughtful reply. I have read a large number of your posts and everything I can find by Dr. K. I am in WA as well, and wish I could get in to see him sooner rather than later. His schedule is closed to new patients for the year, as you probably know

I know of Dr. K's work through my local (eastside) alternative MD, and it definitely matches my own philosophy of healing, toxin removal, whole food diet, daily exercise and relaxation/meditation, stable, supportive home life, minimal stress, etc.

I appreciate your comments on the KMT22 and rife machines. Will need to look much further at all of that before I decide.

I know I have a lot to learn and experience yet, but I have a hard time with the concept that terrible herx = great progress. There has to be a way to do this without turning the body into a major battle ground.

Fortunately all my amalgams are gone as of two years ago, but whether the mercury is or not is still open for discussion. I do have one root canal'ed tooth and had all four wisdoms out in my 20s, so cavitations are definitely a possibility. I have not yet looked into that.

I am so glad to hear that you and your husband have recovered so well. Blessings to you for all you have been through and for all you give to others.

Many thanks, Nutmeg


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pennyhoule
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Hi Gigi,

I'm curious about the KMT22. I did a search and can't find any info on it. Can you fill me in a bit? You said it's not a rife, but somehow similar?

(I have a beam-ray, but have yet to figure out which frequencies to use for much of anything except yeast. :-) It DOES kill yeast, I know that for sure.)

I'm also very curious about your success with the Vit C/Salt protocol. Can you tell me where you get your salt tablets? I hear the tablets are the best way to go and I've found it difficult to down that much sea salt w/o triggering the gag response. I do believe, however that salt is a great anti-microbial, and that increasing it will probably help. I just need to get the tablets, and can't recall where they're available. I know my drug store doesn't carry them.

One more thought: One of the reasons the C may be effective in this protocol is it's ability to bust through bio-films which protect a lot of organims. Bio-films are generally inpenetrable.

Whether the lymephotos.com site is for real or not, I do think there is reason to believe the salt/C protocol could help at least some people. And if so, think what that might mean for all those chronically ill, yet undiagnosed, people out there who aren't getting ANY treatment. It's cost effective, it's natural, and it seems fairly low risk.

Thanks for any info.

penny


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cmichaelo
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I don't know if Lyme disease (LD) can be treated without abx and using only "alternative" treatments.

The little I know, however, tells me that abx is NOT the most important treatment option for irradicating LD.

Abx target only Bb. But if Bb has a happy home in your body already, abx is unlikely to be successful.

You need to get your body in a position where it is in balance so to speak.

That includes several things:

1. Eat healthy.

Basically, only put stuff into your body that serves a purpose.

Thus, drop all sweets, cookies, etc. Drop all enriched flour products, or intake at minimum. Drop caffeine.

Increase intake of fiber rich foods, veggies, fruits, nuts, lots of purified water.

Eat garlic, take grapefruit seed extract, add honey in your organic decaf green tea. All three are natural abx.

2. Get your homone and heavy metals measured.

Correct hormone levels and detoxify accordingly.

Many people (incl me) take chlorella before a meal to aid in detox.

Many people also do IR sauna and special warm footbaths with salt.

3. Take your supplements and proper homeopathic remidies to boost your minerals and immune system.

Of particular mentioning, I can think of Magnesium, Zinc, Acidophilus (very important if on abx), chlorella, fish oils, vit-B, vit-C, echinacea, thuja. Take a quality multi-vitamin/mineral such as LifePak.

Note that many of these supplements have to taken strategically, i.e., at certain times, on empty or full stomach, or away from other supplemnts.

4. Reduce stress/pressure.

Not an easy thing to do. But accept that stress is all in your head. Adopt different philosophy on living alltogether if this is a problem for you.

Only by changing attitude/perspective can you effectively deal with stress.

Look into meditation, breathing, going for walks, take 30min to eat your lunch IN PEACE - not in front of your computer, cherish the time with your kids, etc.

5. Get proper sleep. Get proper sleep. Get proper sleep.

Do whatever you can to get enough sleep. It is priceless. It gives you the extra energy needed to deal with the rest of the day. And not to mention that your mind clears up and generally YOUR BODY NEEDS SUFFICIENT DEEP SLEEP.

6. Monitor your temperature. If it's below normal, perform corrective measures. This can be tricky. But you'll learn as you go along. There are ways.

Eating healthy, correcting hormone and metals deficiencies, taking supplements, reducing stress and increase sleep will likely help on the temp.


OK. So IMHO I would get started on the above BEFORE even going on abx.

Abx is by no means a silver bullet. Perhaps when it comes to a strep throat it is. But not when it comes to Bb.

Bb is, as far as I know, that most complex and crafty little pathogenic sh*t bug known to mankind.

It's a totally different ballgame.

Abx have to be taken at the right time and are only an AID to recovery. Let your body do most of the work.

Hard to accept, I know.

And I'm not an MD, so I don't really know what I'm talking about. But after 11 months struggling with LD, this is what I've learned. And this is what I am doing.

FWIW. IMHO.


Michael


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GiGi
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Penny,

'm curious about the KMT22. I did a search and can't find any info on it. Can you fill me in a bit? You said it's not a rife, but somehow similar?

(I have a beam-ray, but have yet to figure out which frequencies to use for much of anything except yeast. :-) It DOES kill yeast, I know that for sure.)
******************

Here are my notes again on KMT (Klinghardt Matrix Technology). They may be repetitive, but I keep adding onto it as I learn more.

The KMT is a series of FDA approved instruments used for pain control. I used these type devices already a number of years ago.
For those who do not know me, please know that I am well and very cured for several years now from a horrific Lyme infection and major dental infections, which made me totally dysfunctional, semi-paralyzed and held me in a severe brainfog for a long time
(until I met my doctor).

My husband is also beating all records when it comes to an 80-year old who at one time got only around in a wheelchair, walker sometimes, and by my pulling him on the floor from one room to the other in the house. This is all in the past and we attribute part of our well being to KMT.
Our doctor developed an off-label instrument applying this sophisticated technology to patients with neurological and neurodegenerative disorders, including Borrelia and co-infections that most of you are familiar with, but also the many other infections which many Lyme sufferers carry (often unknown). I had not heard of many other co-infections/pathogens that the KMT addresses (bacteria, viruses, parasites, retroviruses, fungi, mold, etc.). I knew that I tested positive with ART for many of them and that I had to be treated to eliminate the overgrowth before they were going to take me over completely.

Superimposed on the pain-relieving frequencies are the so-called "microbial inhibition frequencies', which are proprietary harmonious frequency patterns published and obtained from a wide variety of scientific papers and resources.

The frequencies of the KMT are different from the commonly used Rife frequencies in the EM or B3 or other devices.
The energy delivery is very different from all other Rife instruments.

Microcurrent is gentle and non-invasive. The application does not result in killing, but has a rather wide variety of other effects: The current entrains the immune system to recognize the pathogens. The pathogens are inhibited in their metabolic and reproductive activity.
They will quit having babies!!!!!!!!!

The selected wave lengths increase the medication uptake in the body area where the targeted microbes actually live, not in other unrelated areas.
The instrument also uses pulsed subfrequencies that trigger a specific pathogen and toxic-metal related neurotoxin release. It also modulates the neurotransmitters

The KMT22 and the KMT240 are part of a frequent regimen in our house. Our kids come to borrow it when the flu hits or they sprain an ankle. It is our ready weapon when the mosquito season comes around; though we only have a few, we will not take a chance at taking on any new toxins transmitted by any of these critters
(which is strongly suspected).

Our KMT serves as prophylactic and general maintenance and promotion of health.
To me, this device is the best thing that I have encountered during my years of battle.
There are I am sure a few more yet unknown beneficial effects and I will let you know as I keep track of things. Most Klinghardt patients use the instruments.

I have heard that the multiple chemical sensitive people use it successfully as well. Some use it while soaking in the tub.
Since I am in my 70's when it seems the whole world starts to declare most of us as "demented", I am often using the instrument just in an effort to keep out the cobwebs. I used the Brain Clarity Channel
(#4 of the four channels) the other night while asleep - it runs about 5 hours. When I awoke in the morning, I was able for the first time in the last fifty years to read my wallclock ten feet away without first putting on my glasses!

The little gadget runs (it seems forever) on a 9V battery and thus avoiding any electromagnetic frequency exposure which is detrimental to many Lyme sufferers. The size of the KMT22 is 5.5 x 3.5 x 2 inches.
Dr. K. has treated chronic disease for many years and knows the underlying infections, involved in many diseases, etc. only too well, and has also figured out that unless all are treated, health will not return. All of these pathogens are included in the instrument.
The KMT is always "ready" to be put into action -- when these desperate moments happen where we ask "how much longer" and whine"another few weeks before I can see a doctor again"? Do channels #1, 2, 3, &4, one a day; take a couple of days off and start with #1 again.
It helped us reach our goal - a normal good day every day.

If you want to know more, e-mail me or call Nancy at 541-488-6770 of AANT. She knows the different machines very well.

Here are some notes that I have taken re KMT that might be interesting for some.

....the healing potential of any
electromagnetic device depends on several things: one is the amount of voltage used, the amperage used - those are the two parameters that define a current; then it's the wave form. We know that if you bombard the system with a strong current - if you put a strong current on the skin, the body works like a Faraday cage, that means none of the current is penetrating the body, consequently floats on the outside of the body through the skin into the ground or wherever the person is touching.

The art in microcurrent-technology is how to design a current that actually doesn't flow around the body, but through the body, and then each cell is like a Faraday cage; that means, any current runs on the outside of the cell, but doesn't penetrate into it, and of course the objective with deep healing is that you want to reach inside the cells of the body. To do that, the current has to be very weak, has to be in a biological range (just like when we use our ozone equipment - it has to be in a certain biological range). If the current is too strong, it is deflected by the cell wall. If it has a certain biological range, it will penetrate through the cell wall into the cell and can reach the cell organelles.

And so - there are wave forms where the current rises very sharply and then drops off slowly; then there is a pause, and it rises and it drops - all these currents are pulsed. If you give the body a constant current, the current simply is deflected off the skin, travels in the skin, and just never reaches into any deep tissue. So it needs to be pulsed, and the rise and the pulse decide which part of the cell it is reaching, whether it travels inside the cell or outside the cell.

These are just some basic principles, and so, this machine is unique - it uses the most sophisticated harmonious frequency patterns, four carrier waves, that has these different kinds of pulse raises in it, different kind of amperages, different kinds of voltages, that create a synergistic, harmonious frequency pattern that penetrates the body very easily and reaches the cell organelles. We know that -- there is a lot of research out now that you can stimulate the mitochondria to create ATP outside the cell; we know we can sedate the autonomic nervous system, and so forth. So, some of these functions are built in here, but on top of that, the wave patterns are spiked with other wave patterns that are the inhibitory frequencies for these microorganisms.

So it is several things in one. It is stimulating the cell's own health; the normalization and balance in the autonomic nervous system; lymph drainage; increases blood flow in the tissue; and at the same time inhibiting the growth of these microorganisms.

The KMT microcurrent technology is new and revolutionary. The instruments are FDA approved for pain control. Designed by Japanese engineers, they use four different, but simultanously applied high frequency superimposed biological waveforms.
The interference pattern is creating thousands of harmonics which are then manipulated into the specific pulbished microbial inhibition frequencies (against Bb, mycoplasma, etc.). This stealthy microcurrent travels freely through the body reaching every tissue. The instrument measures the skin conductance over 1000 times/second adjusting the amperage constantly, so that the body never creates habituation/resistance to it. The microbes are inhibited in their metabolic and sexual activity and gradually die out or disappear from the body.

The instrument looks not much different than a TENS unit and is applied via 4 electrodes to the skin or used by translating the electric field into a vector force field using signal enhancer technology.

KMT frequencies are designed to not only interfere with the reproductive mechanism of the microbes and parasites, but also to awaken the immune system, entrain the white cells to recognize the invaders and at the same time help to absorb and shuttle the effective medication to the body compartment where the infection actually is. Otherwise, most treatment substances given never reach the target in sufficient concentration.
The KMT microcurrent frequencies dramatically increase the speed of toxin mobilization and access body compartments the biochemical compounds cannot.

The KMT microcurrent technology is very effective in recognition entrainment, helping the immune cells to mount a specific and targeted attach on the invaders, sparing the body's own tissues. It breaks through one of the prime mechanisms the offending germs are using: molecular mimicry (the pathogens present antigens on their surface that are indistinguishable from a normal body tissue).

The technique also breaks another trick the spirochetes have developed: the molecular interaction that occurs between a specific Lyme virulence factor (OspE) and a host protein fH(factor H).

We always combine KMT technology with the apprpriate herb, antibiotic or other antimocrobial strategy and toxin elimination program.

Lymph drainage using the KMT technology has been superb in speeding the heeling of the sinus/head/neck region.
**************************************
I'm also very curious about your success with the Vit C/Salt protocol. Can you tell me where you get your salt tablets? I hear the tablets are the best way to go and I've found it difficult to down that much sea salt w/o triggering the gag response. I do believe, however that salt is a great anti-microbial, and that increasing it will probably help. I just need to get the tablets, and can't recall where they're available. I know my drug store doesn't carry them.

I had Costco order them from the sources mentioned on Lymephotos.com - but did not use them. I wanted the rest of the minerals, just only "Table Salt". I ended up using HUNZA salt which I posted about and REAL SALT which I posted about recently. www.americanbluegreen.com
and www.realsalt.com. I think my doctor mentions it per teaspoon, etc. I used a 100 year old letter scale to measure the grams.

Be alert for feeling hellishly agitated when you go on the program, and cut back until you can handle it. Follow my doctor's on and off program. It is not a lifelong thing!!!!!

********************************************

Whether the lymephotos.com site is for real or not, I do think there is reason to believe the salt/C protocol could help at least some people. And if so, think what that might mean for all those chronically ill, yet undiagnosed, people out there who aren't getting ANY treatment. It's cost effective, it's natural, and it seems fairly low risk.

Whether lymephotos.com is real or not - believe what you must. The program works so effectively - I have seen the stuff crawling and flying afterwards (A patient put the worm in a jar where it hatched into a flying insect a few days later..................).
Just do it when it's time to do it and do it, so that you can live with it for the time you intend to use it.

I used to mix the salt into juice and added the powdered C. I did not have a problem swallowing it.

If you can't handle the C, use organic apple cider vinegar in enougth water with the salt.
It tastes like the marinade my Mom used to put on green salads! Become inventive and invite it into your body - slowly.

As far as going onto a monestary program to get rid of Lyme - I never did. We ate our chocoloate treats. We drank our coffee. We ate my homebaked goodies. Plenty of good proteins (make certain you digest them well - maybe you need help to do that!). No preservatives or artificial additives. I avoid prepared foods from the store - many of them are toxic to the touch!!! Good healthy food grown in good healthy soil.

Take care.

[This message has been edited by GiGi (edited 18 May 2005).]


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hiker53
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I notice we often compare lyme with syphilis, because both are spirochete bacteria. However, even in chronic cases of syphilis (had the disease for more than 2 years) antibiotic treatment is no longer than a month.

I don't know the answer as to whether people can get better without antibiotics for lyme, but it seems that long term antibiotics are not always the answer and can compromise the immune system, making it hard to get rid of lyme.


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burnbitter
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quote:
Originally posted by Cap:

Honestly, I think the reason why cases of Lyme are increasing is not due to spreading of the disease, I think as a nation, a combination of diet, lifestyle and toxins weakens the immune system to a point where these critters take over.



So did you have a bad diet and didn't excercise yourself?
I had a good diet and lots of excercise previous to onset.
I don't think that's it.

Perhaps it's a combination of things that cause the Lyme to worsen. I have antibioties to HHV6 and ebstein-barr as well, perhaps the combination is the problem. Though I don't really know when I got those either.


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Cap
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I totally agree with cmichaelo's post, once it gets to a chronic case, just throwing more ABX at it may not always be the best answer. That usually means some other issues need to be addressed for you to get over from Lyme.

Sure, some people can beat Lyme in a few weeks ABX. I even hear of late stages clearing up in less than a year, but I am sure those people are otherwise healthy. But you hear of those stories of people having a cathider into the heart, pumping ABX into the bloodstream for years and years with no gains in health, I am like "come on", sure they have Lyme, assuming they were tested for it. But there is probably something else wrong that is causing the body not to heal from Lyme. Metals, stress, other infections, genes, etc.

And if you are weak to the point where Lyme can thrive, chances are there are other chronic infections that need treated too, like Babs, Candida, Bart, HGE, etc, not all of which can be cured by ABX.

Candida in itself is a nasty bug. Even healthy people without Lyme can get active Candida, and it can cause a lot of issues health issues like rashes, Celiac and brain fog.

A lot of people just assume a LLMD can 'cure' you of chronic Lyme. It's usually a big responsibility for the patient to beat Lyme as well. Getting over most chronic infections and environmental toxins usually takes a little more effort than popping a pill.

Most people I know are not that healthy, even if they don't have Lyme. Overweight, chronic joint pain, allergies, blood sugar problems, food craivings, thyroid issues. And these are average people! Come to think of it, I don't know too many healthy people.

The few healthy ones I do know, follow a healthy lifestyle. Most of the unhealthy ones I know, don't follow a healthy lifestyle. Go figure.


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Cap
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quote:
Originally posted by burnbitter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cap:
[b]

Honestly, I think the reason why cases of Lyme are increasing is not due to spreading of the disease, I think as a nation, a combination of diet, lifestyle and toxins weakens the immune system to a point where these critters take over.



So did you have a bad diet and didn't excercise yourself?
I had a good diet and lots of excercise previous to onset.
I don't think that's it.

Perhaps it's a combination of things that cause the Lyme to worsen. I have antibioties to HHV6 and ebstein-barr as well, perhaps the combination is the problem. Though I don't really know when I got those either.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, yes. I did not follow a healthy lifestyle. I did not really start getting better quickly till I started eating healthy and exercising while taking ABX. I got to about 90%, and just 'forgot about it' and got caught up with work and so on. Lyme came back with an increased load.

Now I am off ABX and living a healthy lifestyle, and so far I am getting better again. Even tho I am off ABX (because I need to rest from ABX), I am taking tons of herbs and garlic to target the Bb.

If you are not healthy, and the ABX kills the keets, if your detox pathways are not up to par, then you won't get much better because your Lymph system will be clogged with dead waste material. If you don't eat right, then your body wont be as strong as it should be, etc.

Again, I am not saying that eating a salad will cure you of everything. But I am saying, you will stand a better chance of beating Lyme if you follow a healthy lifestyle while on treatment. And if you go into remission, stay with that lifestyle. If you go back to old habits, there is a chance the Lyme will come back.

But since there are so many strains, and we are all different, your LLMD will know what's best for you. And one of the first things my LLMD told me is to make sure I get enough sleep.

[This message has been edited by Cap (edited 18 May 2005).]


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Nutmeg
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cmichaelo, thanks so much for the great post. I have been living a very healthy lifestyle for the past 8 years and have improved my health greatly during that time.

Thanks for the list...I am way up there in implementation, and I can only imagine how bad off I would be, healthwise and functionally, if I had not gotten serious about wellness when I did. Finding myself not improving anymore, and even getting a bit worse despite my intense healing efforts of the past 3 years led me to begin searching for more answers and causes, including looking at LD.

GiGi, the info on the KMT is invaluable--thank you so much for posting your notes. I hadn't realized it was a home unit. That's awesome.

GiGi, are there other LLMDs at Dr. K's clinic that have similar training and experience in holistic LD treatment? I heard of a woman doctor, also named Dr. K, at the clinic, but don't know anything about her. If you prefer, we could discuss via e-mail. I would like to go to Bellevue, but Dr. Kl's schedule is closed for the year. I submitted a request for appt. for when they begin booking again to at least hold a place for me.

Cap, your thoughts are much appreciated, as well. Still addressing the restorative sleep issue, a lifelong problem for me, but with fewer demands now (no work) and the ability to rest or nap when I need to, I am doing OK. I often sleep 4-5 hours at night without waking now. I find brain function is a whole lot better when I actually get some sleep at night.

I completely believe that no doctor, prescription med, or supplement will ever cure me. Only my body can cure itself, and I know that it will when I find the right combination and timing of supports. Healthy diet and lifestyle is the foundation to all healing, and without that, it would certainly be a rough road.

More great stuff...thank you all for your thoughts.

Wishing you the best,
Nutmeg


Posts: 386 | From WA state | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jwf
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Hi Nutmeg,
My wife and I both were diagnosed
with Lyme; also positive from IgeneX and
Bowen for Lyme only.
We took 4 weeks of doxycycline after having
Lyme disease for 1 1/2 years.
We followed the doxy with the natural
supplements below for just over a year now.
We remain completely symptom free.

1. Cat's Claw (Samento) from Peru
2. Ionic Silver
3. Teasel
4. Olive Leaf Extract
5. Two formulas from Seven Forest Herbs- that
contain 8 or 9 anti-spirochete herbs from
China
6. Sarsaparilla
7. Grapeseed Extract
8. Kyolic 103 Immune Formula
9. Artemisinin
10. Extract of Oregano
11. Triphala from India
12. NAC, folic acid, a strong B-Complex, Nordic Naturals Detox

Blue Skies.......John


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burnbitter
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My doctor told me about a new protocal based on chinese medicine by Dr. Zhang. Found this article: http://www.healthfreedomsolutions.com/lymedisease.htm

that might be an alternative to abx


Posts: 207 | From san francisco, ca | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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