posted
"Malariotherapy for spirochaetal Lyme disease has been discussed, but the mechanism of an antispirochaetal effect remains unclear.
We cultured Borrelia burgdorferi at different temperatures, alone and in combination with antibiotics.
Our data demonstrate that growth of the strains PKo and ATCC 35210 (B31) was impaired at temperatures of 37 degrees C and inhibited at 39 degrees C and 40 degrees C, respectively.
Strain ATCC 35211, however, grew well up to 39 degrees C but did not multiply at 40 degrees C.
A bactericidal effect was seen at 41 degrees C for the strains B31 and PKo and at 42 degrees C for all strains.
The susceptibility of all strains to penicillin and ceftriaxone was increased up to 16-fold by an elevation of temperature from 36 degrees C to 38 degrees C.
These in vitro data suggest that elevated body temperature may be beneficial during antimicrobial treatment of Lyme disease.
This may be particularly important in tissues where high concentrations of antibiotics are difficult to achieve."
-------------------- Neil Posts: 697 | From Tucson, AZ USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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5dana8
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posted
Thanks welcome very much for this post.I am really interested in heat therapy. Last year I did hot baths and soaked in a hot bath while taking my ABX in this brew my LLD reccomended for 1/2 an hour a day
It was torture but it worked.I made alot of improvements.But shortly after I got a massive muli-sytemic yeast infection.I was like a big loaf of bread baking in the oven. I am excited to hear you only have to raise your temp not as much as I thought. I will ask my hubbie to convert C to Farniheight.
I wll post later and thanks again. dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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5dana8
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Here is what my hubie worked out.Correct me if we are wrong:
36C= 96.8 37C= 98.6 38C= 100.4 39C= 102.2 I was only able to raise my temp at the end to 101. Would raising temp to 99 range or 100 range still be effective?
Would love your opinion Welcome thanks dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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lyme_suz
Unregistered
posted
So if the bugs are compromised at only 98.6, could it be that the hypothyroid problems prolong recovery? Wonder if the "hot-blooded" fight lyme off more easily than us?
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As with any biological pathogen, BB defenses are not 100% effective for each individual bacteria in your body.
BB bacteria do have heat shock capabilties, but not all of them/all of the time.
It seems the literature suggests that 102+ F is where you start to see significant die off.
Most lymies (but not all) I've talked to never noticed much of a fever, if any. I'm not sure if there is a mechanism by which BB specifically supresses fever, or whether it is merely a side effect of its elluding the immune system through other mechanisms.
I will say this, if this was not BB but some other bug, your body would probably react with a big, FAT FEVER. Why not regularly give it one on purpose.
Remember also that this will increase blood flow and perspiration. Caution and ample liquidiation are advised.
Posts: 294 | From nevada | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
thanks, this is very interesting. I the begining of my treatments I did a lot of epson slat baths and did have a number of herxes - I started them again. This Time I took a thermomitor in with me just to see how hot I did become - 102.5. I started to get the buzzing in my feet and calfs and left hand. I used to get the same buzzing before treatement. Hope it raised some cane with the bugs.
Posts: 582 | From milwaukee wi | Registered: May 2005
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5dana8
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posted
I am very excited by your information welcome.Thankyou so much.Am gonna try soaking again.I used this brew: 1 cup Epson Salt,1 cup table salt,1 cup aloe juice,1/2cup baking soda.
Not sure why my LLD came up with this comb?Any ideas? Could all the salts make a difference?I don't get the baking soda?
I was told to drink alot of warm water while soaking.And also ate something salty afterwards. Don't think I can go as high as before but am encouraged to try again but at lower temps.
And also I'll try to stay extra warm now winter's here.I am alway's cold and can't seem to get warm enough.
I don't want to make life easier for the litter b@!$%^ds.
Many sicknesses are a result of and/or cause mg deficiency. Lyme in particular creates a HUGE mg deficiency.(see posts by marnie and others)
Your skin is porous. When heated and wet it becomes even more so. You excrete fluid and toxins out through the warm/hot baths and some of the salts are absorbed in.
You may want to start at a cup, but I'd increase to a full 4 pound box before too long.
I also use H2O2.
Posts: 294 | From nevada | Registered: Sep 2005
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5dana8
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welcome thanks for your repely's.Very helpful!
Just a few more questions. what is H202?
Should I eliminate the table salt?And just go with the epson salts?
And do you think adding aloe juice, is in effect to absorb,like the salt mag thing too? I always thought it might be to protect my skin from the salts.
They where emphatic to get the real expensive aloe juice & not the cheap stuff .
What do you think?
Thanks dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
In my opinion, the benefits of Aloe Vera are best seen through internal consumption. Other than organically produced and processed, I'd go with whatever you can afford.
Sodium bicarbonate is fine.
H2O2=Hydrogen Peroxide.
Your LLMD may have suggested table salt for the Iodine. However there is a simple test for Iodine deficiency, and an easier way to absorb it.
posted
Regarding hydro/heat therapy, how long would one need to stay in the tub/hottub to achieve optimal benefits? I used to take long baths but nowadays I feel achy and miserable and don't feel like sitting in the tub - which is exactly why I should be sitting in the tub... Ha - shows to go ya with this disease!
Posts: 63 | From Deer Grove, Illinois, United States | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Hey all - I posted earlier - I have been herzing to the dickens since I took the bath I posed on - Be carefull!
Posts: 582 | From milwaukee wi | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by lymebites: Regarding hydro/heat therapy, how long would one need to stay in the tub/hottub to achieve optimal benefits? I used to take long baths but nowadays I feel achy and miserable and don't feel like sitting in the tub - which is exactly why I should be sitting in the tub... Ha - shows to go ya with this disease!
20 to 30 minutes, and it should be just before bedtime.
Posts: 294 | From nevada | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Could I get a source for the article listed by the OP. I want to print it and give it to a pcp that I am helping to become more lyme literate.
I think it is significant because in lays the ground work of justification to treat hypothyroid in conjunction with LD. This topic seems to be controversial even among LLmds.
-------------------- When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath Posts: 296 | From East Coast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marnie
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posted
Heat is a negative charge. Careful. You are already acidic...metabolically speaking.
I have a feeling the opposite would be more effective...cooling - significantly. This is what the body is doing...dropping your temp.
Look for the body "clues"...how is it trying to fight?
(Cooling helmets esp. Research them.)
In the 1970s in Germany, vets cured dogs with neuro babesia by using IV Na bicarb.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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5dana8
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posted
Marnie thanks for your post.
How does heat make your body more acidic?
What is IV na bicarb?
I am confused.If BB thrive in a cold environment how is cooling to help?
In 95 I went to a LLD for IV treatment .I told her because of my neck pain I was using ice packs on my neck.She told that is the worst thing I could be doing becuase BB thrive under cold conditions.She also told me never to swim in cold water.Is this now out dated information?
There is so much info out there it is hard to know what is best to do.
I would greatly appreciate any more info you have in the first two questioned in my first two sentences.
Thanks and Blessings to you
dana
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by elle: Could I get a source for the article listed by the OP. I want to print it and give it to a pcp that I am helping to become more lyme literate.
I think it is significant because in lays the ground work of justification to treat hypothyroid in conjunction with LD. This topic seems to be controversial even among LLmds.
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: Heat is a negative charge. Careful. You are already acidic...metabolically speaking.
I have a feeling the opposite would be more effective...cooling - significantly. This is what the body is doing...dropping your temp.
Look for the body "clues"...how is it trying to fight?
(Cooling helmets esp. Research them.)
In the 1970s in Germany, vets cured dogs with neuro babesia by using IV Na bicarb.
Marnie,
Many lymies complain of being intolerant to cold temperatures. There body's "clue" tells them to warm up.
Before I knew what I had, one of the first things that indicated to me that I had something serious was I had serious symptoms and no fever!?!?!
Although there is significant merit in Acid/Alkaline principles, in this regard I don't see the application.
It's not that the body is trying to cool down in order to destroy the invading pathogen.
It's that the invading pathogen is somehow supressing and thereby evading the "normal" fever response that we see in other infections.
Posts: 294 | From nevada | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I don't think that the body being cold is a sign that that is what is needed. It is just a symptom of being sick; of being depleted of nutrients; of having vital organs and cells infected with pathogens that are destroying them.
That's why heat feels so good, and cold feels so bad. My body is telling me that being cold is wrong.
I have done steam saunas for a year now, and I can tell you that it makes a difference. Medications penetrate and work better because of it, and it is also an effective detox tool. My core temp will only get up to 101* in a 120* sauna for 30 min, but I'm sure that it is much higher in my arms and legs, and also along the entire skin surface.
It is taxing on the body though, and it has to be done in increments. Going too fast, too soon will hurt you.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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Marnie
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posted
Raising the body temperature another way was tried. It was/is called ICHT...intracellular hyperthermia.
A man (MD who had lost his U.S. license) used DNP, an incredibly strong acid, to literally heat up the cells...to destroy all forms of Bb.
This speeds up glycolysis. A LOT.
DNP, the acid used, is in a class with cyanide.
He killed a young doctor who went to Italy and spent $20,000 to do this treatment.
So long minerals...hello cardiac arrest.
Acids (lots - negative charges) react with a little mineral/glycogen (alkaline - positive charges) to produce hydrogen.
Hydrogen is carried INTO the cells via CoQ10 (we make this when we exercise). But we need nutrients to make CoQ10....B6 and Mg for starters.
Bb is H2O2 resistant. Most other pathogens are not.
Cold reduces inflammation. TNF alpha and angiotensin II are both PROTEINS, acidic. There is a rebound effect when a cold pack is applied for too long. First vasoconstriction, then vasodilation. Generally hot and cold are supposed to be alternated to "boost the immune". This is the basis of...going into a sauna for awhile and then go out romping in the snow.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Marnie: Raising the body temperature another way was tried. It was/is called ICHT...intracellular hyperthermia.
Although there have been serious setbacks and disasters with that procedure, the process still has merit, but it's not nearly as natural and synergistic as whole-body heating.
Fevers work. That's why nature invented them.
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: Bb is H2O2 resistant. Most other pathogens are not.
It's not so much resistant to H2O2 as it is capable of recognizing and "swimming away" from it. Posts: 294 | From nevada | Registered: Sep 2005
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Marnie
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posted
Your body may be dropping your temperature for PROTECTIVE reasons.
At least in rats...
"We conclude that a decrease of only 1�C in body temperature significantly attenuates liver I/R injury, whereas
***an increase of 1�C significantly increases liver I/R injury."
"During hypothermia, arterial pH rises and pCO2 falls when the measurements are made at the actual body temperature; this "alkalotic" change does not occur when the measurements are made at 37 �C. This calls into question the definition of "normal" acid-base balance at varying temperatures and how pH and pCO2 values should be analyzed and interpreted [8]."
``But the pathogen's success of transmission also depends on its ability to replicate and survive within a host for long periods.
One option is to remain latent inside the long-lived cells of the CNS whose temperature is about 38� (100.4 F) in humans.
This coincidence elucidates the characteristic spread and neurotropism of B. garinii, which is frequently associated with neurological manifestations [85]. In vitro evidence suggests early invasion of the CNS by B. burgdorferi sensu lato by adherence of this organism to sphingolipids [86]''
Enzymes and proteins are destroyed when the temp. goes too high. This is why when Robert Lane boiled the blood of the Western Fence Lizard...and the protective factor was destroyed...he determined the protective factor in the lizard's blood was a protein or an enzyme.
It's dangerous to fool too much with the body's temperature - pH, IMO.
The temperature of dogs is 101 F.
``But the pathogen's success of transmission also depends on its ability to replicate and survive within a host for long periods.
One option is to remain latent inside the long-lived cells of the CNS whose temperature is about 38� (100.4 F) in humans."
``In other words Lyme bacteria all die at a temperature of 106 Fahrenheit for 24 hours. It's a higher temp than what kills Syphilis.
Unfortunately that could kill you too.
But they do have a hard time at 102F, and at 103 or 104. One of the problems with heat therapy is some tissues in your body might be a bit cooler and the bacteria there might survive. It can be dangerous therapy if it's not done in moderation.
Temperature treatment for spirochetal illnesses has it's roots in the old Malaria therapy for Syphilis. The old Malaria therapy had a death rate of 1/20, and a successful complete remission rate of 50%. Some people just soak in very hot baths in addition to other therapies and swear by it.
How does B burgdorferi know when to express certain proteins? For instance, when B burgdorferi is inside ticks, at approximately 23�C (73.4 F), the surface of the spirochete is covered with OspA and OspB.
But when the organism gets into mammals, at an average temperature of 35-37�C (95.0 F - 98.6 F) OspC is the predominant surface antigen. So, does temperature affect gene expression?
Dr. Scott Samuels, PhD,[12] of the University of Montana, Missoula, presented some highly technical research on how the Lyme disease spirochete manages this transformation.
The process appears to be mediated by supercoiling of DNA. (For a description and pictures of DNA supercoiling, see the handy Web site from the Mount Sinai School of Medicine.[13])
Supercoiled DNA can be visualized as a coiled phone cord; the more you twist it, the more tightly wrapped it becomes. Untwisting the DNA opens up the loops and coils.
It turns out that the degree of supercoiling is determined by the temperature: at the lower temperature of ticks, B burgdorferi DNA is more supercoiled, and the OspC gene is expressed at only a low level.
By contrast, at the higher temperatures seen in mammals, DNA is less supercoiled, and the OspC gene is expressed at higher levels. The next step for Dr. Samuels' team is to determine what is affecting expression of the other 2 surface protein genes.
"It appears that B burgdorferi may have its own approach to fighting back. John T. Skare, PhD,[11] of Texas A&M University Health Science Center, College Station, examined one such battle tactic Borrelia use against humans: resisting oxidative stress. (Oxidative stress is the use of hydrogen peroxide, superoxide, and other active oxygen radicals to kill invading organisms.)
Dr. Skare's group has examined a gene called BB0647 to see what role it may play in resisting oxidative stress. Originally, this gene was thought to resemble a ferric uptake regulator, or Fur.
Oddly enough, though, Borrelia don't require iron. This puzzling finding prompted Dr. Skare to search databases for genes that more closely resemble BB0647. He found that the most homologous gene is one that produces a peroxide regulatory protein, PerR.
This protein controls the expression of catalases and peroxidases, enzymes that play a major role in defending cells against oxidative stress. To confirm these findings, Dr. Skare showed that B burgdorferi containing an active form of the BB0647 gene was indeed able to resist hydrogen peroxide, around 3000 times better than a strain containing a mutated form of the gene.
Title: Susceptibility of iron-loaded Borrelia burgdorferi to killing by hydrogen peroxide and human polymorphonuclear leucocytes [published erratum appears in FEMS Microbiol Lett 1991 Sep 15;67(1):122] Authors: Sambri V, Cevenini R, La Placa M Source: FEMS Microbiol Lett 1991 Jun 1;65(1):67-71 Organization: Institute of Microbiology, University of Bologna, S. Orsola Hospital, Italy.
Abstract: Borrelia burgdorferi grew more slowly in iron-depleted than in iron-sufficient media. The addition of increasing concentrations of iron stimulated borrelial growth and resulted in the intracellular accumulation of this element. Compared with iron-starved borrelia, iron-enriched organisms showed enhanced sensitivity to hydrogen peroxide. Intracellular iron-content did not, however, influence susceptibility to killing by human polymorphonuclear leucocytes
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Notice research dates (yours and mine).
Science. 2000 Jun 2;288(5471):1651-3.
Lack of a role for iron in the Lyme disease pathogen.
Posey JE, Gherardini FC.
Department of Microbiology, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602, USA.
This got Gherardini the job at NIH in Hamilton, Montana I think.
Americans are always right...right? ;-)
This may interest you:
Infect Immun. 2003 Aug;71(8):4711-6.
Calprotectin, an abundant cytosolic protein from human polymorphonuclear leukocytes, inhibits the growth of Borrelia burgdorferi.
Lusitani D, Malawista SE, Montgomery RR.
Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06520, USA.
We previously showed that numerous polymorphonuclear leukocyte (PMN) granule components efficiently kill Borrelia burgdorferi, the agent of Lyme disease.
In addition, motile, granule-poor cytoplasts (U-Cyt) from human blood PMN can exert anti-Borrelia activity against opsonized B. burgdorferi independently of oxidative mechanisms.
Here we show that lysates of U-Cyt also possess anti-Borrelia activity, a portion of which comes from the abundant cytosolic protein calprotectin.
The anti-Borrelia activity of U-Cyt lysates and recombinant calprotectin was partially or completely reversed by specific antibody to calprotectin and by Zn(2+), a cation essential for the growth of B. burgdorferi and known to inhibit the antimicrobial activity of calprotectin.
Quantitative microscopic and regrowth assays revealed that calprotectin acted in a bacteriostatic fashion against B. burgdorferi.
We conclude that calprotectin, a potent bacteriostatic agent from a cell primarily recognized for its oxidative and granular antibacterial mechanisms, may play a modulatory role in infection by the Lyme spirochete, particularly at sites of acute inflammation.
PMID: 12874352
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by elle: Could I get a source for the article listed by the OP. I want to print it and give it to a pcp that I am helping to become more lyme literate.
I think it is significant because in lays the ground work of justification to treat hypothyroid in conjunction with LD. This topic seems to be controversial even among LLmds.
Thank you - for my purpose the article is much less controversial.
Possibly "The Brew" listed by one of the previous poster, which has a very alkaline PH was meant of offset the acidity of the hot water to reduce to the overload on the actual body but yet still allowing the heat to effect the spirochete load?
Non science - BA in Business; just a guess
-------------------- When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath Posts: 296 | From East Coast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marnie
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posted
Heat (and NO...and some other things) causes vasodilation.
Might put you "over the top".
Too much of a good thing too fast.
Both the Mg replenishment and the vasodilation are beneficial.
Maybe?
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