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Author Topic: sexual transmission
char
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Hi,

I understand that lyme is transimitted sexually.

What is your opinion about siuation where a woman is diagnosed with lyme after 5yrs, treated for one yr and recovering. Spouse apparently is not infected at this pt.

They have not used protection up til now? Should they?

Char

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SForsgren
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I would ask how you know that the spouse is not infected. If the partner has had it for 5 years, then IF it can be transmitted, it is likely that the spouse is already infected.

How are you making the determination that the spouse is not infected? There really is no way to know.

There is also no way to know whether or not sexual transmission at this point occurs, though I would say it is highly likely.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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welcome
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The debate on actual transmission through sexual contact and/or the exchange of bodily fluids is almost as contentious as the alledged controversy over Chronic Lyme infection itself.

However some fairly technical research (cited below) suggests that a person must be bitten to become infected.

web page here

"Microbial adhesion to and colonization of host
tissue is an early, critical event in an
infection process.

In the case of Lyme disease,
host tissue adherence appears to be of importance
during different stages of the disease process.

Initially, during an infected tick's blood meal,
a small number of spirochetes are deposited in
the dermis of the host, where the bacteria appear
to colonize collagen fibers (4, 5).

As the infection disseminates to other tissues,
bacteria may colonize additional extracellular
matrix structures, and host cells may be
involved.

We previously showed that adherence of B.
burgdorferi to collagen fibers involved a
specific binding of the spirochete to decorin, a
dermatan sulfate proteoglycan that is associated
with and "decorates" collagen fibers, whereas a
direct binding to collagen could not be
demonstrated (6-9).

A dermal route of entry into the
host appears to be important for the
development of disease.

Spirochetes administered intravenously
are rapidly and effectively cleared by
Kupffer cells in the liver (10), whereas
those inoculated intradermally
consistently establish infection (11).

Perhaps the initial dermal colonization
allows the organism to adapt to in vivo
conditions before blood stream dissemination."

[ 16. December 2005, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: welcome ]

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char
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Welcome-I think I understood that.

Scott-
you are right, he may be infected. This is part of why I ask should they(we) use protection now. I have been on abx for 9mos.
I know abx protect unborn baby during pregnancy but I have not heard anything about abx protecting in aforementioned situation. (?)
Part of me feels like if he was going to catch it he would have already, so either he has it or his immune system is strong enough to fight it off.

There is a lot going on with kids and me sick and this is an issue we are not thinking about, but I am starting to think...

Thanks

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aiden424
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I worry about that too. I want my husband tested. I'm afraid I wont get better if he doesn't get tested and treated if he has Lyme because I'll just keep getting re-infected by him. He does have some joint issues and memory problems.
Kathy


I understand that lyme is transimitted sexually.

--------------------
You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have.

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DolphinLady
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Some people have lyme and are asymptomatic until a stressful enough event (or combination of events) happens to them. TESTS ARE NOT RELIABLE.

The more exposure to lyme bacteria the higher the chances of infection.

A person with lyme can not be 100% sure they are not contagious at any given time.

Yes, sexual transmission of lyme is controversial, but why take the risk of infecting another person with such a horribly debilitating disease?

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Jim Bayliss
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WHERE ARE you hearing that Lyme can be transmitted by sexual contact? From what I have read, there has been NO studies on this as yet. However, they have found the little beasties in semen. AND they have also found them in saliva, tears and who know where else.

ARE we to all become HERMITS? IF it is in your saliva and tears, it is PROBABLY in your sinuses also. Be sure not to kiss someone IF you have lyme. Correct? AND don't hug someone IF you are crying. Correct. Don't touch doorknobs for sure, as someone might have touched it after rubbing their eye or nose.

Each will have to decide for themselves, but I see NO reason to be alarming people who live together that they WILL pass it on to the other ones without giving blood. Speaking of giving blood, HOW many people get Lyme from blood donations? Do they screen ALL blood for Lyme disease? Millions may have it and don't even know, and MANY of THESE donate blood, so NOW what?

Just something to think about.

Jim
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Aligondo Bruce
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it seems possible that, as in aids , especially violent bloody sex may open the way for spirochetes {say in semen} to penetrate the skin.

probably doesn't happen very often, but on the other hand, it hasn't been studied AT ALL {or at least published}, which is quite shocking.

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treepatrol
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My wife has it and never was bitten.

Transmission Lyme
Transmission Fleas Mosquito's Food Etc
Transmission Etc
Black Flies & Lyme
Transmission Art Doherty

Sexually Transmitted ???
Transmitted Through Sex?
Sex Question-Serious-Adult Content

Looks like like they killed this one hmm Blood Supply, Its back!

Video On Demand: Blood Supply May Be Source Of Lyme Disease Infections

Search

[ 16. December 2005, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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cstockwell
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quote:
Originally posted by treepatrol:
My wife has it and never was bitten.

Not that she is aware of...doesn't mean she was not bitten. Very large number of infected had no rash and were unaware of being bitten.
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elle
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NO debate here -

I was bit on 6/28/05

Igenex - Neg
CDC - Neg
Positive for Babs, Ehrlichiosis - mono & gran
Neg for Bart

Husband was not bitten.
Tested by Igenex 11/05
Igenex - Positive
CDC - Positive
Negative for Babs, Ehrlichiosis, Bart

I started seeing a llmd in August and we started using protection then. I continued to get better, hubby has continued to develop symptoms.

Edited to add - my husband did have a rash on his lower extremity which lasted 2+ days. It occurred after contact. It was followed by stiff neck, joint pain which we thought was odd and I asked him to make note of it for when I went to see the "real" doctor. At the time I had no clue about any lyme, transmission, protocals, etc. The only thing I knew was my board certified, infectous disease doc had told me that I would have to learn to live with the way I was feeling and I knew that was a big, fat lie.

--------------------
When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by cstockwell:
quote:
Originally posted by treepatrol:
My wife has it and never was bitten.

Not that she is aware of...doesn't mean she was not bitten. Very large number of infected had no rash and were unaware of being bitten.
Highly unlikely she was bitten Hunted once and at that time in that area there were no ticks how I know is iam a bug magnet if there had been any there i would have gotten them on me hunted that area all my life but now theres ticks there.

I work in forestry more likely I could have brought a hitchhiker home on me but i always checked thoroughly me and clothing.

Never a rash on me either and I have been bitten at least 80 times and around fifteen imbedded deeply.

If I was a betting man I would lay a $1000.00 on transmission through sex.

What makes people think syphilis and lyme are so different?
Other than what they cause in symptoms say like sores? eveything else makes them pretty close cousins except that lyme spirochete has more genetic structure than any other bacteria??? More to work with.

And what about children being born with it????
But in a study by T. Gardner, in Infectious Diseases of the Fetus and Newborn Infant, 72% of newborns with tissue-verified Lyme disease did not produce enough antibodies to be seropositive for Lyme. 13. Gardner T. Chapter 11: Lyme disease. In: J. Remington,
J. Klein (eds). Infectious Diseases of the Fetus and Newborn
Infant. Philadelphia, PA: W.B. Saunders Company, 2001:
519-641.

congenital 1

Gestational and Congenital Lyme Disease

Pregnancy and Lyme Disease

The possible association between Lyme disease during pregnancy and adverse outcome has recently received attention. Transplacental transmission of B. burgdorferi has been documented in a pregnant woman with Lyme disease who did not receive antimicrobial therapy. She delivered an infant with a congenital heart defect (1). The relationship between the intrauterine infection and congenital heart defect has not been established. In an effort to assess the risk of Lyme disease during pregnancy, the state and territorial epidemiologists and CDC have established a registry to enroll cases of Lyme disease in pregnant women before the outcome of pregnancy is known. Of the 19 pregnancies evaluated to date, none resulted in a child with a congenital heart defect. However, other adverse outcomes were found, including intrauterine fetal demise in the second trimester, prematurity, and developmental delay with cortical blindness. None of the adverse outcomes have been documented to be caused by Lyme disease. Outcomes of 14 of the pregnancies were completely normal. The risk of adverse outcome for pregnancies complicated by Lyme disease is not currently known. Reported by State and Territorial Epidemiologists; Respiratory and Special Pathogens Epidemiology Br, Div of Bacterial Diseases, Center for Infectious Diseases, CDC.

Clear back in 1985.
CDC

[ 16. December 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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Linda LD
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I'm all over people having it and not knowing until a stressful event--I think a lot of women get sick after pregnancy. So you have it, you deal with it and then by the time you figure out you have it your children have it too.

L

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Ewok
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Tick is the size of a poppy seed. By that line of thought...I've "never been bitten" either. No rash, no visible tick.
I'm CDC and Igenex positive for LD.

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riversinger
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I do think that it is still unproven whether Lyme itself is transmitted sexually. I am one of the ones who never saw a tick, and I have fully CDC positive WBs. I guess its possible that my ex gave it to ME, but he has no symptoms, even though he was with me the nine years after I showed acute, and then chronic symptoms. So, if anything, it would be more likely I would have given it to him, but he claims he is well.

However, we do have to remember that some of the coinfections ARE more easily transmitted. Bartonella can be transmitted in animal saliva or scratches, so why not human. And that is just as difficult to test for as Lyme.

So, while I don't believe we need to think it will transmit every time, it is reasonable to take precautions. We just don't know what we may be infected with, and it is still unknown all the possible means of transmission. Better to be safe, than sorry.

--------------------
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[email protected]

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treepatrol
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I know no one has seen a lyme spirochete enter woman sexually but they have found spirochetes in semen thats pretty good odds.

Because lyme dosent present itself fast like syphilis dosent mean its not infecting you.

I tend to believe lyme being passed to a partner is a different animal than one from a tick.

Because the spirochete thats been a infected person has changed lots of its operating features.

Like wearing different protiens gleaned from the immune system of the originaly infected person also its found abillities say from attacking lymphocytes and using God only knows those things.


RealPlayer Dr on spirochetes in sperm,cervix

[ 16. December 2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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Jim Bayliss
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I guess, "I" would be MUCH MORE concerned about having to be infused with blood than semen or saliva, at THIS point.

My wife and I have been together for over 5 years. And before we met, I thought I was cured because the Cipro got rid of the tendon pain behind my knees. (for about 8 months). Then it only came back very gradual, till it got so bad I could hardly walk early this fall. She says SHE has NOT got Lyme's. But then SHE has never been tested either. She has been bitten by wood ticks as I have also, but my understanding is the normal large wood ticks we have here do NOT transmit it. BUT then I wonder about THAT too!

When I was "bitten" 6 years ago, I saw NO tick. BUT noticed this red rash on the top of my foot that lasted about 2 weeks. BUT IF we are bitten by larvae or the young tick, you won't be able to see it anyway. Way too small.

A river runs through our property, and it is a haven for deer and thousands of mice, etc., so a real good chance for Lyme.

HAS anyone seen anything published about Lyme in the blood supply for transfusions?

Jim
###

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char
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Wow. A lot to digest.

Both sides of issue of what to do are true, in a way.
Dolphin, yes, why risk infecting your partner? And Jim, yes, should be stop kissing or holding hands?

A hot potatoe, get it?

So has anyone heard that being on abx can prevent one from spreading lyme and co thru sexual transmission? That is what we would like to hear, right?

Thanks everybody for replies. May God help us. (I am not being sarcastic here)

Char

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Aligondo Bruce
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quote:
Originally posted by treepatrol:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cstockwell:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by treepatrol:
[qb] My wife has it and never was bitten.

What makes people think syphilis and lyme are so different?
Other than what they cause in symptoms say like sores? eveything else makes them pretty close cousins except that lyme spirochete has more genetic structure than any other bacteria??? More to work with.

And what about children being born with it????
.......................................

From what I know, there are important similarities and important differences between borrelia and treponemes{ie syphilis}. First, they are both spirochetes, obligate parasites. They cannot survive outside of a host. Spirochetes as a whole are very unique and different from all other bacteria, and the entire group is poorly understood.

Recent genomic and proteomic studies of both organisms have revealed much...T. pallidum, the organism which causes syphilis, possesses a single circular chromosome. Bb., on the other hand, possesses a slightly larger genome, but it is distributed on one linear chromosome and 20+ plasmids {smaller pieces of DNA, basically). The plasmids are both circular and linear, linear DNA structures being very unusual in bacteria, and Bb's total plasmid count is unique among all bacteria.

The Bb chromosome encodes many genes which are homologous to Treponema genes. Many of these "shared" genes encode proteins with unknown function or no known homology outside of the spirochete clan. however, none of the Bb plasmid genes have any homology with treponema. ie, the plasmid genes are unique to borrelia, and many of them are unique to Bb s.l.

Another interesting difference between Bb and Tp is what is called the G+C content. this is a measure of the overall fraction of nucleic acids guanine and cytosine utilized in the DNA of the organism. Remember, there are 4 basic deoxyribonucleic acids used in DNA: GTAC. Borrelia have very low G+C content, in the 25-30% range. Treponema pallidum, on the other hand, is around 50% G+C. So the basic constitution of the genes is very different. In general, DNAs with low G+C content are more unstable, because Guanine forms a stronger bond with its complementary nucleic acid Cytosine than Adenine does with Thymine. {3 hydrogen bonds versus 2}

blah blah blah blah blah, I wonder if anyone has read this far? oh well....here's some more important differences...Treponema lacks genes which are protect against oxygen toxicity, whereas Bb possesses some of these. Moreover, Tp is very sensitive to heat increases, whereas Bb possesses a heat shock response although it is poorly understood. These combined observations suggest that HBOT and malariotherapy would have reduced effectiveness in Bb treatment as opposed to syphilis. {perhaps, for instance, Bb would require simultaneous combinations of such treatments}. another difference...treponema encodes "only" about 20 or so surface lipoproteins, whereas Bb encodes well over 100 {mostly on the plasmids}. In fact, 14.5 % of the entire plasmid gene suite is devoted to these proteins, a characteristic unique among all bacteria.

I'll end this with a direct quote from the treponema gene sequencing paper {which appeared in the july 17 1998 science}:

"476 ORFs {open-reading frame, usually a gene sequence which encodes a protein} in T. pallidum (46%) have orthologs in B.b. {ortholog means proteins with high enough sequence homology that they probably perform similar or identical functions}. 76% of these ORFs have a predicted biological function {this means these proteins resemble other proteins in databases whose function is already known}. More than 40% of the orthologous genes in T. pallidum and B.b. are highly conserved in other bacteria and are involved in housekeeping functions such as transcription, translation, DNA replication, metabolism, flagellar structure and function, cell division, and protein secretion. Some of the genes of unknown function that are conserved in the spirochetes but not recognized in the other available genome sequences are likely to represent "spirochete specific" genes that contribute to the unusual structural properties of these bacteria. 115 ORFs shared by T. pallidum and Bb encode proteins of unknown biological function; and almost 50% of these appear to be unique to the spirochete group. This set of proteins with a limited phylogenetic distribution may include important determinants of spirochete structure and physiology and may, for example, be involved in the ability of both T. pallidum and Bb to infect humans and cause chronic, disseminated disease."

After reading all this, please realize that there are dozens to hundreds of genes on the Bb plasmids which have totally unknown function, and Treponema does not possess these. Nor does it possess the unique genetic structure which involves all sorts of plasmids interacting in ways that may be unknown in nature outside of borrelia. This fact emphasizes the differences between the two organisms. Bb is much more poorly understood than T. pallidum. And T. pallidum is not well understood at all.

That's why EIS officers are controlling the research in this area. They simply do not know exactly what is going on. At the clinical level, much of what we are seeing is propaganda. and this may be necessary from a societal view. Downplay what is going on, to reduce panic, until we can get a handle on things and come up with some solutions.

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JillF
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I am almost positive that my husband contacted Lyme from me

The chance he got bitten by a tick is so small.

He started showing symptoms 4 yrs after we started dating. I probably have had Lyme since highschool.

He tested positive, I have yet to test positive.

So far, it doesn't look like he contacted either coinfection I also have.

He is improving quickly. I am not but his symptoms were never as bad as mine - I also have had about 30+ more symptoms than him.

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DolphinLady
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I have heard that lyme is being sexually transmitted from several well respected llmds.

True, studies proving sexual transmission have not been published.

Yes, each will have to decide for themselves.

Education and common sense are key.

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cstockwell
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So Tree...please tell us what scientific studies you have conducted to come up with all of these facts. I wouldn't start putting your OPINIONS out there as gospel. Or are we still basing this on the fact that your wife doesn't hunt so it had to be sexually transmitted. I don't hunt or work in the forestry but I got lyme.
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JillF
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quote:
Originally posted by cstockwell:
So Tree...please tell us what scientific studies you have conducted to come up with all of these facts. I wouldn't start putting your OPINIONS out there as gospel. Or are we still basing this on the fact that your wife doesn't hunt so it had to be sexually transmitted. I don't hunt or work in the forestry but I got lyme.

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/032259.html

http://www.ktvu.com/video/3547022/detail.html

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
quote:
Originally posted by treepatrol:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cstockwell:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by treepatrol:
[qb] My wife has it and never was bitten.

What makes people think syphilis and lyme are so different?
Other than what they cause in symptoms say like sores? eveything else makes them pretty close cousins except that lyme spirochete has more genetic structure than any other bacteria??? More to work with.

And what about children being born with it????
.......................................

From what I know, there are important similarities and important differences between borrelia and treponemes{ie syphilis}. First, they are both spirochetes, obligate parasites. They cannot survive outside of a host. Spirochetes as a whole are very unique and different from all other bacteria, and the entire group is poorly understood.

Recent genomic and proteomic studies of both organisms have revealed much...T. pallidum, the organism which causes syphilis, possesses a single circular chromosome. Bb., on the other hand, possesses a slightly larger genome, but it is distributed on one linear chromosome and 20+ plasmids {smaller pieces of DNA, basically). The plasmids are both circular and linear, linear DNA structures being very unusual in bacteria, and Bb's total plasmid count is unique among all bacteria.

The Bb chromosome encodes many genes which are homologous to Treponema genes. Many of these "shared" genes encode proteins with unknown function or no known homology outside of the spirochete clan. however, none of the Bb plasmid genes have any homology with treponema. ie, the plasmid genes are unique to borrelia, and many of them are unique to Bb s.l.

Another interesting difference between Bb and Tp is what is called the G+C content. this is a measure of the overall fraction of nucleic acids guanine and cytosine utilized in the DNA of the organism. Remember, there are 4 basic deoxyribonucleic acids used in DNA: GTAC. Borrelia have very low G+C content, in the 25-30% range. Treponema pallidum, on the other hand, is around 50% G+C. So the basic constitution of the genes is very different. In general, DNAs with low G+C content are more unstable, because Guanine forms a stronger bond with its complementary nucleic acid Cytosine than Adenine does with Thymine. {3 hydrogen bonds versus 2}

blah blah blah blah blah, I wonder if anyone has read this far? oh well....here's some more important differences...Treponema lacks genes which are protect against oxygen toxicity, whereas Bb possesses some of these. Moreover, Tp is very sensitive to heat increases, whereas Bb possesses a heat shock response although it is poorly understood. These combined observations suggest that HBOT and malariotherapy would have reduced effectiveness in Bb treatment as opposed to syphilis. {perhaps, for instance, Bb would require simultaneous combinations of such treatments}. another difference...treponema encodes "only" about 20 or so surface lipoproteins, whereas Bb encodes well over 100 {mostly on the plasmids}. In fact, 14.5 % of the entire plasmid gene suite is devoted to these proteins, a characteristic unique among all bacteria.

I'll end this with a direct quote from the treponema gene sequencing paper {which appeared in the july 17 1998 science}:

"476 ORFs {open-reading frame, usually a gene sequence which encodes a protein} in T. pallidum (46%) have orthologs in B.b. {ortholog means proteins with high enough sequence homology that they probably perform similar or identical functions}. 76% of these ORFs have a predicted biological function {this means these proteins resemble other proteins in databases whose function is already known}. More than 40% of the orthologous genes in T. pallidum and B.b. are highly conserved in other bacteria and are involved in housekeeping functions such as transcription, translation, DNA replication, metabolism, flagellar structure and function, cell division, and protein secretion. Some of the genes of unknown function that are conserved in the spirochetes but not recognized in the other available genome sequences are likely to represent "spirochete specific" genes that contribute to the unusual structural properties of these bacteria. 115 ORFs shared by T. pallidum and Bb encode proteins of unknown biological function; and almost 50% of these appear to be unique to the spirochete group. This set of proteins with a limited phylogenetic distribution may include important determinants of spirochete structure and physiology and may, for example, be involved in the ability of both T. pallidum and Bb to infect humans and cause chronic, disseminated disease."

After reading all this, please realize that there are dozens to hundreds of genes on the Bb plasmids which have totally unknown function, and Treponema does not possess these. Nor does it possess the unique genetic structure which involves all sorts of plasmids interacting in ways that may be unknown in nature outside of borrelia. This fact emphasizes the differences between the two organisms. Bb is much more poorly understood than T. pallidum. And T. pallidum is not well understood at all.

That's why EIS officers are controlling the research in this area. They simply do not know exactly what is going on. At the clinical level, much of what we are seeing is propaganda. and this may be necessary from a societal view. Downplay what is going on, to reduce panic, until we can get a handle on things and come up with some solutions.

I agree there is much more to Bb than syphilis its more well lets say Its a {Bb} is a super computor and syphilis is a palm in comparison to abilities.

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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quote:
Originally posted by cstockwell:
So Tree...please tell us what scientific studies you have conducted to come up with all of these facts. I wouldn't start putting your OPINIONS out there as gospel. Or are we still basing this on the fact that your wife doesn't hunt so it had to be sexually transmitted. I don't hunt or work in the forestry but I got lyme.

First thanks JillF [Big Grin]

Second

cstockwell
Member # 8201 posted 16 December, 2005 11:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.So Tree...please tell us what scientific studies you have conducted to come up with all of these facts.


Tree responce to 1.
I havnt conducted any scietific studies other than what I have read and reread constantly.

Trying to find answers.


2.I wouldn't start putting your OPINIONS out there as gospel. Or are we still basing this on the fact that your wife doesn't hunt so it had to be sexually transmitted. I don't hunt or work in the forestry but I got lyme.

Answer to 2.
No Iam not just basing it on that if you want to no more get off your own butt and research for yourself cstockwell .Its easy to ridicule



I always respond or at least try to be kind and just present what I have read as I have read it.

You can make up your own mind.

Lida Mattman

Transmission Lyme
Transmission Fleas Mosquito's Food Etc
Transmission Etc
Black Flies & Lyme
Transmission Art Doherty

Sexually Transmitted ???
Transmitted Through Sex?
Sex Question-Serious-Adult Content
Talking Transmission ?


Video On Demand: Blood Supply May Be Source Of Lyme Disease Infections


Look the rest up yourself and I never said it was Gospel by the way the word gospel means


Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gOdspel (translation of Late Latin evangelium), from gOd good + spell tale -- more at SPELL
1 a often capitalized : the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvation b capitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; also : a similar apocryphal book c : an interpretation of the Christian message
2 capitalized : a lection from one of the New Testament Gospels
3 : the message or teachings of a religious teacher
4 : something accepted as infallible truth or as a guiding principle
5 : gospel music

So I never said this was anything to do with the bible or the lord.
And I never said it was the infallable truth


So whats your problem Lyme [bonk] ??

[ 19. December 2005, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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treepatrol
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http://www.joimr.org/phorum/read.php?f=2&i=38&t=38
Mattman, et al., in 1996, [16] performed a careful study of blood samples from 20 sarcoidosis patients and 20 controls using an oil-immersion lens and the Intensified Kinyoun stain. Mattman also developed specialized media which were capable of culturing the CWD organisms she isolated from the CWD specimens.
This is the same lady who can take blood from you and in three days tell you if you have lyme by raising spirochetes from your blood which had none in it ie (blebs,Lforms) are there they revert back to spirochetes at least thats what I make out of it. http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/06-health/B-disease/2003/06B-02-01-03-microbiologist-Mattman-closing-lab.html

SarcInfo.com - How a Pathologist can see Bacteria causing Sarcoidosis
I just spent a fascinating afternoon with Dr Alan Cantwell, one of the first to report that a special type of bacteria had been found in the tissue of sarcoidosis patients. His first paper reporting these special pleomorphic bacteria was published in 1981, and a second paper in 1982. His discovery was ignored by Pulmonologists, although a number of other physicians have continued this work, with a detailed study of 20 patients and 20 controls in 1996, which clearly implicated bacteria as a likely cause of sarcoidosis. It was a bacteria similar to Mycobacterium Tuberculosis, but with an evolutionary adaptation that allows it to live without having a cell wall.

These special bugs are called "Cell Wall Deficient Bacteria" (CWD), and they have been found not only in Sarcoidosis, but also a number of other diseases, including Crohn's disease. There is a well written description of these bacteria at 'The Lyme Alliance'.

<--- A clump of tiny, round, 'coccoid forms', resembling minute granules, is at the far left of this image of a sweat gland from the skin of a lung sarc patient.

Here are the 'rod' bacteria more commonly seen by a pathologist --->


Dr Cantwell came under intense criticism when he reported that he could also find these bacteria in cancer patients, and from that time onwards he was ostracized by many in the medical profession. Dr Lida Mattman has managed to plot a course through the medical politics, and she is still working and researching today. Dr Phyllis E Pease has also continued to publish. Dr EA Moscovic has also published about CWD in Sarcoidois.

These CWD bacteria grow very slowly. Sometimes it can take months to culture them in a lab. That is one of the reasons that the labs don't find them during their standard tests for fungi and bacteria. These CWD have also been referred to as mycoplasma, L-forms, mollicutes,and nanobacteria. Milton Wainright referred to them as 'pleomorphic' in his recent article.

Alan gave us the benefit of his decades of research on cell wall deficient bacteria, explaining how any pathologist could see them under a microscope, and which stains should be used to make the bacteria show up amongst the tissue. If you look at the two images above, on the left you have a microscope photo, at 1000 times magnification, of the tissue surrounding the sweat gland from the skin of a lung sarcoidosis patient. The orifice for the sweat gland is the large open space at the lower right, the clump of tiny bacteria (called a coccoid form) is at the middle left. Click the image for an enlarged view. It is not easy to see these bacteria, but a good pathologist should be capable of doing it.

Normally the stain would show up the bacteria as red, (like the 'bacterial rods' on the right from the University of Wisconsin). But they show up as light pink, or, as in this slide, a purplish violet (a mixture of pink and blue).

Your pathologist might even be able to find these bacteria in old biopsy slides (some hospitals keep these for years). Here is some info that will help him find these tiny bugs (include this with Doc's pathology request)

The stains that are most useful to view the bacteria are:
1. Intensified Kinyoun
2. Giemsa
3. Fite-Faraco (often used with Leprosy biopsies)

They must be viewed under oil using an "oil immersion lens" at a magnification of 1000.

There are several books that will help a pathologist recognise the cell wall deficient bacteria:
1. Mattman LH: Cell Wall Deficient Forms. ISBN 0-8493-4405-0 (info from B&N.com)
2. Domingue G: Cell Wall Deficient Bacteria. (info from Amazon)
3. Xalabarder C: Publicaciones del Instituto Antituberculoso Francisco Moragas, Caja de Pensiones Para La Vejezy de Ahorros, Paseo de San Juan, 20, Barcelona-10: "L-Forms of Mycobacteria and Chronic Nephritis". 1970


Dr Alan Cantwell's book is interesting reading, and extremely provocative. It has photographs of the sarcoidosis microbes in it.

Now of course this topic is a little more complex than I have made it sound. The University of Wisconsin has an excellent description of the importance of the cell wall to a microbe, and why certain antibiotics, such as the penicillins, attack the microbe's cell wall. Microbes that have evolved to live without a wall are immune to attack by the penicillins (but apparently not immune to Minocycline). In fact the existence of your CWD mutations may be due to the use of the Penicillins on microbes for which the Tetracyclines should have been chosen in the first place.

Additionally, species of the E-coli Bacterium, as well as the Strep bacterium, have been found in a cell-wall deficient form, not just the Mycobacteria.

Hopefully this tutorial will give you and your pathologist the information needed to verify that these microbes were in fact in YOUR biopsy tissue, and that therefore Doc had better darn well think about trying some antibiotics to get rid of them...

Click on the images to get enlarged versions.

CWD Bacteria in the connective tissue of the skin biopsy sample taken from a skin sarcoidosis patient

Culture of CWD staph bacteria from this patient (cultures of these CWD bacteria typically take months to grow)

Bacteria in the lung tissue of a patient with systemic sarcoidosis

Bacteria in a sweat gland of the skin of the same (lung sarc) patient

Culture from the second patient
The Mattman Study
Jo Anne Whitaker, M.D.,' Eleanor G. Fort, B.G., M.T.' Minter H. Dopson,'' Lida H. Mattman, Ph.D.,``Sally M. Marlowe,N.P."
'Bowen Research and Training, Tarpon Springs, FL, USA, '' Chisolm Biological Laboratory,
Aiken, SC, USA `` Nelson Medical Research, Warren, MI, USA (4) Arthritis Pain Treatment Center, Clearwater, FL, USA
INTRODUCTION
Health is a state of balance. Because humans and microbes are often competitors, interactive co-evolution has resulted in multiple and varied defense mechanisms on the part of both. The body must juggle and perform delicate balancing acts to maintain adaptive successes in spite of constantly changing life situations.
Lyme Disease (LD), Fibromyalgia (FMS), Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), Gulf War Syndrome (CWS), and many similar chronic conditions affect multiple body systems often accompanied by extreme morbidity. Laboratory diagnostic methods presently in use are often undependable. We believe The Gold Standard Culture method developed by Lida Mattman, Ph.D. is the only consistently dependable procedure for the demonstration of the spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the causative agent of LD. It is becoming increasingly obvious that the plethora of multiple clinical signs and symptoms associated with LD are also common to patients with FMS, CFS, GWS, and other commonly referred to as immune diseases. Most physicians do not consider LD to be a cause of these syndromes, thus, allowing untold numbers of direly ill patients to suffer without the antibiotic treatments which will improve their clinical situation, and, in some cases, cure their disease (acute LD).
MATERIALS AND METHODS
(1) The Mattman Blood Culture Technique for identification of BB was used. Her success in producing positive cultures involved initiating growth in cell-wall deficient forms of the spirochete.
(2) LUAT (Lyme Urine Antigen Test) performed at Igenex.
(3) Peripheral Blood Smears with Giemsa Stain (4) Live cell analysis.


Results
103 subjects exhibiting clinical evidence of multiple body system involvement were studied. The Mattman Blood Culture was positive for Bb in 94 subjects. 37 subjects were tested by LUAT for Bb antigen and 19 of the 37 tested positive. Smears were done on blood taken from the subjects. There was evidence of bone marrow stimulation characterized by hypochromia, red blood cells (RBCs) inclusions (stippling or parasites) and large polychromatic RBCs Platelets and white blood cells appeared normal. Extreme fragility of RBCs was detected in many (nonspherocytic). Live Cell Analysis was also performed on the blood of the subjects and followed over 4 days ( same preparation). Upon standing, most striking was parasitization of RBCs by ring forms, and in many cases spirochetes emerging from RBCs. There existed extreme degradation of red blood cell membranes. Cystic and large L-Body forms were frequent.
Breakdown of diagnosis and the number of subjects:
Fibromyalgia - 30
Osteoarthritis - 1
Mixed Connective Tissue Disease - 3
Polymyalgia Rheumatica - 1
Ankylosing Spondylitis - 1
Lupus Erythematosus - 1
Palindromic Rheumatism - 1
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - 8
Multiple Sclerosis - 40
Amyotrophic lateral Sclerosis - 17

DISCUSSION
When Fleming discovered the miracle drug, penicillin by mistake, he observed that it worked by altering the cell wall, thus, preventing replication. The Mattman Culture Method induces positive growth by supporting the cell-wall deficient forms. These forms are extremely stealthy in their proclivity for pleomorphism, suggesting other genera. The ambiance of their surrounding medium is probably responsible for these changes and migration to all part of the body in the interest of self-preservation. Without intact cell walls their receptors are disadvantaged.

It is essential that the "medical world" question the validity of present laboratory methods in detecting Bb and recognizes that Lyme disease, sometimes a killer but almost always a disabler, is a disease just as fearsome as "The Great Imitator", syphilis, and about to become just as widespread. Success in treating LD can best be achieved with early clinical diagnosis and the initiation of proper long-term antibiotic and antigen-specific Transfer Factor therapies. Until this is achieved, there will continue to be great cost not only to patients progressing to chronic neuroborreliosis, but also to the public health community. One of the most crucial diagnostic tools, the initiation of a trial antibiotic regimen and antigen-specific Transfer Factor therapies, and the resulting Herxheimer reaction (belived by may "Lyme Savvy" practitioners to be the best indicator of LD response) must be embraced and practiced. It is paramount to accept the fact that Lyme disease is the most common and rampant vector- borne infectious disease in the US.


Its not a far leap to think that lyme or one of it buddies is the cause of all this suffering.TBD
Heres some more. http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/25/lyme_disease.htm
http://www.lymenet.de/mattms.htm

Update on Research Activities

Bowen Research and Training Institute, Inc. is a research facility in Palm Harbor , Florida . After finding that there were few accurate tests for Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), researchers at Bowen Research and Training developed a new direct immunofluorescent test that identifies the Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) antigen.

This research project has found the Bb antigen in whole blood, breast milk, amniotic fluid, placental tissue, semen, eye fluid, tooth, foot nodule, shoulder fluid, spinal fluid, finger joint fluid and African dust. This test, called the Rapid Identification of Borrelia burgdorferi (RIBb) test, looks for an antigen of the Bb spirochete. Findings are documented with digital photography.

This method of testing is of particular importance for Bb because current serology tests measure only antibody response beginning three to four (3-4) weeks following onset of active Lyme disease, whereas the antigen of Bb is present within twenty-four (24) hours of contracting the disease. In addition to the RIBb test, a buffy coat blood smear stained with Wright Giemsa is examined to identify other tick borne bacterial infections such as Human Granulocytic Ehrlichia (HGE), and Human Monocytic Ehrlichia (HME), which are seen in the white blood cells (WBC). The parasite Babesia is often seen intracellularly in the red blood cell (RBC). All three infections can be identified in the same individual.

We have now tested over 2900 specimens including over 700 very sick children from all geographic areas and, as previously described, all are positive for the Bb antigen. The RIBb test has been validated by Mattman's culture method, yielding the same results on over three hundred (300) same draw blood specimens. An independent laboratory using thirty (30) same draw blood specimens has also confirmed the RIBb test. Appropriate, specific and non-specific positive and negative controls are performed on each specimen.

We have recently developed a titration serial dilution method for quantitating the amount of Bb antigen in the blood. This may help to differentiate the carrier state from the patients with serious disease by comparing persistence of fluorescing structures. This method will also help us to determine the efficacy of antibiotic and other treatment therapies. We strongly recommend that physicians order the serial dilution RIBb test pre and post antibiotic therapy to determine the efficacy of treatment.

In 1998 Dr. Lida Mattman cultured Borrelia burgdorferi by supporting the growth of cell wall deficient organisms in 43 out of 47 blood samples from patients with the signs and symptoms of chronic Lyme disease. In that study there were 23 out of 23 negative controls in patients without signs and symptoms of Lyme disease. For the last four years Dr. Mattman has not had a negative culture for Borrelia burgdorferi. All specimens have cultured out cell wall deficient Borrelia burgdorferi organisms.

A large epidemiological study needs to be done with a sensitive specific test for Borrelia burgdorferi to help understand its many complexities.

This study should alert us that Lyme disease is a very serious problem, quite possibly the fastest growing epidemic in the world, and one that is very difficult to diagnose and treat. The RIBb test as well as the identification of the presence of other tick borne infections is vitally important so that the disease can be diagnosed early in order for treatment to be started immediately to prevent the morbidity of chronic Lyme disease and other tick borne diseases.

Jo Anne Whitaker, M.D.

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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brentb
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My opinion is that borrelia is VERY transmissable from males to females. Not sure the other way around.
If your a female and live in china you can buy the product below and not have to worry about it. You may want to ask your representative why only the chinese women no longer have to worry about std's and cervical cancer (caused by viruses). Doesn't seem fair.

http://www.theregister.com/2005/11/21/china_liquid_condom/

Chinese float liquid condom concept
Johnny Be Good
By Tony Smith

Published Monday 21st November 2005

China's first liquid condom went on sale today after the country's health and drugs administration formally gave the hi-tech prophylactic the thumbs-up,
the China Daily reports. Dubbed the Nanometer-silver Cryptomorphic Condom (NCC), it's designed for female rather than male usage. The condom-in-a-can is essentially an antiseptic foam spray that the manufacturer claims forms a physical membrane inside the vagina, protecting it from infection, acting as a barrier to
pregnancy and providing a lubricating effect.

It's not known who makes the NCC, but Beijing-based Chinese-Canadian condom
maker Blue Cross Biomedical has been touting something along these lines for a while now.
It maintains its spray-in condom "can effectively kill gynaecological
disease pathogens such as staphylococcus aureus, Candida, coliform bacillus,
and can prevent sexually transmitted diseases.

"It can remain in the vagina for a long time without destroying the vagina's
chemical balance," the company adds. "Daily use of this product can help
maintain genital hygiene and prevent infection by pathogens".

The condom's antibacterial properties presumably arise from the
nano-particles of silver incorporated into the spray. Or do they? In South
Korea last week, the Korea Consumer Protection Board (KCPB) lambasted local
washing machine vendors for claiming their products, which are coated
internally - not unlike... - with a nano-silver spray,
kill 99.9 per cent of germs in the wash.

Not quite, said the KCPB - it's the hot washing water that's killing the
bacteria,
not the coating.

[our note: that is BS! water in washing machines gets *WARM* at best,
and certainly not "hot" enough to kill bacteria, etc.]

And, judging by the photo, we can't help thinking at least some customers will find applying the product more stimulating that actually putting it
through its paces.
Making whether it actually works or not a somewhat moot point.

[ 19. December 2005, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: brentb ]

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