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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Herbal Protocol (Artemisin, Coptis)

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Author Topic: Herbal Protocol (Artemisin, Coptis)
morningnewsman
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Does anyone have experience with the herbal antibiotic protocol using Artemisin and Coptis? I'm curious how it worked for people and how long it took to see a change.
Thanks,

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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morningnewsman
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I've heard they take a while to kick in????

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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JimBoB
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I have taken both Artimininin and Artemisia annua, and I feel the Artemisia annua is doing more than the Artemisinin did for me. I herx with the Artemisia annua but didn't notice anything with the Artmisinin except being tired and feeling a little flushed in the face.

Just my experiences.

I haven't heard of Coptis before. WHAT is IT?

Are you just trying to treat Babesia, or what?

Jim [Cool]

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morningnewsman
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I don't know what the Coptis is....just one of the herbal supplements I've been prescribed by my LLMD.

The past couple weeks I've been on the Chinese herbal stuff. Sometimes I think it's not helping, but during other times I think some of my old symptoms are lessening or disappearing. But new ones are coming on, so I don't know whether they are herxs or relapses of my full-blown Lyme. Tough to tell.
Thanks Jim.

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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Nori
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Rick - i have a friend who started about 4 weeks ago on artemesia annua and coptis for lyme
He was really herxing and last week had a few good days where muscle weakness and droopy eyelid and some other symptoms were not there for the first time in a long time.

Coptis is a potent chinese antibiotic.
I gargle with it if I get a sore throat/cold and away it goes.

--------------------
Nori

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morningnewsman
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Nori, do you think I should assume that this flareup of my neurological symptoms (numbness, tingling, etc) could actually be a herx? I had felt things relapsing a bit after seven months off the ABX, which is why they put me back on something.
Thanks for all the input!

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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farah
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Coptis is a Chinese herb that has antibacterial and anti-inflammatory properties. Dr. Zhang uses it a lot in treatment of Lyme. I think a combination of antibacterial herbs usually works better than just one, because this bacteria is so adaptable and changeable.

Farah

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Carol in PA
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I was very interested in Coptis after reading about it on Dr. Z's site.

Here is what Memeorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center has on it:
HUANGLIAN (Coptis chinensis)
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/11571.cfm?RecordID=480&tab=CON


I did not find too many places that sell it.

Vitamin Shoppe
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=PP-7213
Herb Pharm Coptis, 4 Ounces Liquid,
MSRP $38.00
VALUE PRICE $30.40

Hepapro: http://www.hepapro.com/
Coptis Capsules, 200 mg, 90 Capsules (15 day supply)
$35.00

Life Science Pharmacy
http://www.lifesciencepharmacy.com/content/estore_list.asp
Zhang Coptin, 200 mg, 50 Tablets
Suggested Retail Price $19.00
Our Price $15.20


I was surprised that Stephen Buhner did not discuss this herb in his book.
He also missed Allicin and Rhodiola rosea.

Carol

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hardynaka
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I had once posted about berberine for babesiosis here, few people had taken it.

Berberine seems to be the main component of Coptis chinensis (there are many species of coptis).

Goldenseal and barberry also have berberine.

In another forum, some people were taking berberine with good results.

Selma

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morningnewsman
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Thanks for all the info. I've been on the herbal antibiotics for about two weeks, and its just tough to tell if its working. I'm also taking herbal supplements to flush out my liver, which was a little elevated. (thus the reason I could not go on the "real" abx)
I certainly prefer the natural route if possible.
[Cool]

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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JimBoB
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quote:
Originally posted by morningnewsman:
Thanks for all the info. I've been on the herbal antibiotics for about two weeks, and its just tough to tell if its working. I'm also taking herbal supplements to flush out my liver, which was a little elevated. (thus the reason I could not go on the "real" abx)
I certainly prefer the natural route if possible.
[Cool]

The Natural HERBS are the REAL abx. Manmade ones are just that and artificial. Just a little side thought.

I am going to look into the Coptis.

Buhner used only herbs in his Healin Lyme book that have proven themselves for many, many years, especially in Lyme Disease. He explains that quite well in his book. He has dealt with many prectitioners in this too to come to his conclusions.

Jim [Cool]

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Nori
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"Nori, do you think I should assume that this flareup of my neurological symptoms (numbness, tingling, etc) could actually be a herx?

For my friend it was a herx.
Since we all respond different, I cant say the same for you.

In chinese medicine, people have different constitutions and some can tolerate certain warm or cold herbs while others cant.

I am not taking the coptis formula as it is a cold property herb and I cant tolerate cold herbs for a long period of time like some people can.
My muscles get weak in my legs - something related to digestive system issues.

--------------------
Nori

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morningnewsman
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It's tough to tell if this is a herx or just symptoms not being touched by the herbal protocol, but I'm glad to hear these are potent abx, and natural too. Taking the probiotics is still important, even with the herbal abx.
Thanks for all the great info, it helps a lot.

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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liz28
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I take Herb Pharm's coptis extract as a supplement to nystatin, to control yeast.

Also, I've taken artemisinin as a supplement to various babesia protocols. Although the one I'm on now is working beautifully, it took a long time to find, and the artemisinin was invaluable in keeping the babesia somewhat controlled in the meantime.

What I've read about artemisinin, which you'll want to research on your own, is that it rapidly lowers the level of malaria in your bloodstream for a short time. So if you catch the lethal form of malaria, which can kill you within hours if you are not near a medical center or have a drug resistant form of the disease, you can take artemisinin and it will wipe out the malaria long enough for you to get a second drug into your system.

The symptoms you've described are too vague to identify as a specific disease. I'm one of the Lymenet people with relapsing babesia, and it is finally responding to a treatment protocol used on tough cases of relapsing malaria, plasmodium vivax. Since this disease is not an area of expertise within the Lyme community, which is naturally focused on Lyme, you may wish to read more about it on your own.

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jwf
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Hi Morningnewsman,

I've been taking artemisinin, artemesia
annua, cat's claw, grage seed extract,
sarsaparilla (smilax), andographis, coptis,
isatis leaf, forsythia, gardenia, scute,
and phellodendron, among other herbs for
2yrs. 2months now.

This has been posted several times on
this board but is quickly forgotten.

In 2 years time my health has changed
dramatically from chronic neuroborelliosis
to fairly normal and from positive to
negative with IgeneX. Still positive with
Bowen but moving down their scale.

I have also recovered from the night-
mare called Morgellons with the same herbs.
The herbs that I chose have worked beyond
my expectations for both my wife and me.
These were started before the Healing Lyme
book came out, but I understand the author
picked many of the same herbs.

Expect results in years not months.
We were untreated for 1 1/2 years. When
we contracted Morgellons (hard G and it
is very real) I realized like many others
that we also had Lyme disease.

This is the aritcle that got me started
on many of the Chinese herbs--
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lyme.htm

Blue Skies........John

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Nori
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John - I am so glad to hear success stories like yours with the herbs.

Thanks for continuing to post

--------------------
Nori

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JimBoB
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Yes, John, keep posting from time to time, we need you on here.

I just looked up Coptis yesterday, and need to look deeper into it as I see it IS expensive.

I can get a pound of it from 1stChineseHerbs for about $76.00.

I will check my other outlets before I order it though. I am wondering IF I should stop one or more of my other herbs while taking it?

Mainly to "fool" the parasites that may be hiding in there yet?

Jim [Cool]

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jwf
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Ching-hao or Artemesia Annua and Artemisinin was
bought from the Organic Pharmacy in Asheville:
http://www.organic-pharmacy.com/ARG.Artemisinin.htm

Coptis is one of the herbs in the two anti-spirochete
formulas from Seven Forest that we've used
over the last two years.
The Seven Forest herbal formulas No. 6 and 18 came
from a local Acupuncturist.

Here are a couple of references to Chinese Herbal
treatment for Lyme/Leptospirosis/Malaria/Babesia/
Syphilis/Schistosomiasis.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lyme.htm
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/chinghao.htm

If you don't have any luck finding the Seven Forest
formulas on-line, check with a local ND or Acupuncturist.

Just started using the 2 Seven Forest formulas
again about 10 days ago and although I don't
have any Lyme symptoms at all, I'm having a
small herx from it. Interesting.
Of course these formulas also combat other
bacterial infections.

Blue Skies............John

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liz28
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Yo, coptis costs $7.95 at local health food stores.
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farah
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If you all decide to take coptis, take it as a pill or capsule, otherwise it is horridly bitter, like andrographis, another potent chinese antibiotic herb.

Farah

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morningnewsman
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I find them all to be pretty expensive...the coptis, Hepa #2, Circulation P, HH. These are the ones I'm taking, along with Milk Thistle, MedCaps, etc.
Why do they say to take the Coptis and Artemesin a half hour before eating??

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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JimBoB
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quote:
Originally posted by liz28:
Yo, coptis costs $7.95 at local health food stores.

$7.95 for HOW MUCH?

I JUST ordered a POUND from 1stChineseHerbs late last night and it cost $73.00 exactly with free shipping. THAT will make many bottles of 100 capsules though. But it is still more than twice as expensive as Andrographis.

But I thought I would try it for a few months. Maybe replace my daily regimen of Andrographis with it just to have something different attacking any bugs that might still be in my system.

When it is gone, I will then continue taking the Andrographis. Mainly because Buhner recommends it and it is a lot cheaper.

Jim [Cool]

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JimBoB
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quote:
Originally posted by morningnewsman:
I find them all to be pretty expensive...the coptis, Hepa #2, Circulation P, HH. These are the ones I'm taking, along with Milk Thistle, MedCaps, etc.
Why do they say to take the Coptis and Artemesin a half hour before eating??

I don't take your other herbs, but find Resveratrol to also be expensive. Most other herbs are very reasonable for what they do for you.

I didn't know anyone said to take Coptis half hour before eating. I take ALL my herbs WITH my meals. WHO said to take it half hour before?

Jim [Cool]

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morningnewsman
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My LLMD recommends taking those select herbs a half hour before meals. I guess I can ask him.

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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Nori
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My acupuncturist/herbalist says to take some of my herbs 30 minutes before eating - this is for better absorbtion prior to food coming in.

But some herbs are recommended with food.

I note some of the zhang herbs he recommneds to take before the meal and some with the meal.

[ 12. June 2006, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Nori ]

--------------------
Nori

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JimBoB
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I got into the habit of taking all my herbs WITH meals as I was having such terrible stomach pain and nausea before.

I have cured that problem now, with C-Salts, but don't know IF I want to chance it either.

I am wondering HOW MUCH better they absorb before the meals, and WHICH ones of all I take?

I don't remember Buhner saying that in his book.

Jim [Cool]

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morningnewsman
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I do notice that I get MUCH more stomach bloating and gas with the herbal protocol than I did on the hard abx for over a year. I guess that shows just how potent this stuff is, which is good!

--------------------
Thanks,
Rick

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farah
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Taking some digestive enzymes with the herbs may help with the gas and bloating from them.

Farah

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Annxyz
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This post will help those looking for info on finding the right botanicals with a relaible source .

It is great to hear that some folks feel the herbs are helping them improve . Good tools for
the arsenal needed .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Annxyz
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Bump Again for people asking about herbal success ( JWF and JimBob and Selma)
and for particulars about herbs

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Annxyz
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Bump Again for people asking about herbal success ( JWF and JimBob and Selma)
and for particulars about herbs .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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JimBoB
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okay, THIS was the thread that I FIRST heard of Coptis.

I did try it WITH only ONE pill of Andrographis and a couple pills of Artemisia annua, and I thought I was going to die. The worst feeling I have ever had on herbs. I had to stop ALL of my herbs for a few days. It took me about three weeks to recover.

It took me many weeks before I tried Coptis again. I did take it, but at very low doses compared to Andrographis and others. Coptis is a super strong herb. Take with extreme care.

I am not taking it now, I am back on Andrographis. Do NOT take it with Andrographis. I would think twice about taking it with Artemisia annua also.

I still have some of the original pound left and may use it up in the future.

Jim [Cool]

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hardynaka
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Coptis was way too strong for me. I couldn't stand even 1/3 of a CAPSULE A DAY. It gave me strong kidney pains. Unbearable.

I tried it for a few times after a rest. No, that's not a herb for me.

Buhner thinks coptis is not indicated for borrelia but for parasites. He had talked about that somewhere (planet thrive???).

Selma

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klutzo
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I am currently on a TCM tincture formula prescribed by my Acupuncturist for my bad gallbladder, which includes Coptis in it. I've been taking it 3 X daily for 3 weeks now.

I am to take it 1/2 hr. before meals with as little water as possible. It is bitter, but not unbearable. I have had zero herxing or stomach upset from it.

I cannot take Artemesia, as all quinine derivitives and their relatives make me stop breathing.

Another one used for Lyme in TCM is Coriolis Versicolor.

Klutzo

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Annxyz
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Note To self : Do not mix andrographis , coptis , and artimisinin ( without extreme caution )

They are all three very potent individually .

Thank you Jim Bob for sharing your meltdown experience .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Ruth Ruth
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Klutzo, is the tincture from your accupuncturist helping with the gall bladder? It doesn't sound like you have been having a great time recently. I hope things turn around for you soon.

--------------------
When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness,
Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.

RuthRuth

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JimBoB
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You are welcome, Ann.

I sure don't want anyone else to go through what I went through last summer. It was really scarey.

JWF said his "seven" formula had both coptis and andrographis in it, but he didn't say HOW many mg's of each he took. Probably a very small amount each day? Don't know, he would have to tell us.

I will never go back to the two at the same time though.

Jim [Cool]

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klutzo
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RuthRuth,
No the herbs are not working and I am seeing the surgeon this morning. I am scared to death. I got only 3 hrs. sleep last night from nerves.

I am afraid of the surgery because of my problems with ABX, narcotics, and apnea, and afraid to be in a hospital because of the med mistakes, late med doses (which would put me into withdrawl) and superbugs.

I've not been in a hospital since 1986. People are telling me hospitals here are now like those in the third world, and you don't dare be left alone, or you could die of neglect. We have no family, and all our friends work full time and overtime, so I will have to be alone.

However I am far more afraid of not having surgery at this point. I have no idea how to convince this surgeon to operate on me with all normal tests, but I must convince him somehow. The entire upper right quadrant of my abdomen is now so tender it cannot be touched, even lightly. I've lost 18 lbs. in 28 days.

It is the needles that have helped keep me going, easing the pain and nausea enough so I can keep down 500 cals. daily plus supplements,and get a little sleep.

Klutzo

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liz28
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I love coptis for candida, and pair it with nystatin and kefir.

Artemisinin was part of my babesia protocol, along with chloroquine and primaquine. Worked beautifully!

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mag
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hi
morningnews

i take coptis for the berbereine effect

doesn't cause any herxing for me

mags

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Ruth Ruth
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Klutzo, I sent you a PM. Sorry about your pain.

Mag, what is a 'berbereine effect'?

--------------------
When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness,
Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.

RuthRuth

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JimBoB
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jwf
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The two Seven Forest formulas that I took
were Forsythia 18 and Isatis 6.

Forsythia 18:

Forsythia 8%, Lonicera 8%, Platycodon 7%,
Chrysanthemum 7%, Schizonepeta 6%,
Gardenia 6%, Cnidium 6%, Scute 6%, Peony 5%,
Bupleurum 5%, Siler 5%, Tang-Kuei 5%,
Arctium 5%, Vitex 5%, Phellodendron 5%, Coptis
4%, Licorice 4%, Myrrh 2%

Isatis 6:

Isatis 25%, Hu-chang 15%, Prunella 15%,
Oldenlandia 15%, Andrographis 15%,
Lonicera 15%

We took 9/day of each formula (700 mg. tabs)
so our intake of

Andrographis= 945 mg/day
Coptis = 252 mg/day

This amount of each herb mixed in with the
two formulas never seemed to cause a problem.

Herbs used to combat LEPTOSPIROSIS in China:

*Isatis leaf,*Isatis root, Smilax,*Gardenia
*Andrographis,*Hu-chang,*Coptis, Chien-li-kuang
*Scute, Verbena,*Phellodendron, Sanguisorba
*Forsythia, Ching-hao

If you take the two Seven Forest formulas then
you get *8 known anti-spirochete herbs .
In addition, Smilax or Sarsaparilla has been
discussed quite a bit, and Chinng-hao you may
recognize as Artemisia.

As a rule of thumb, we never took Artemesia
or Artemisinin at the same time as the Seven
Forest Formulas.

The Artemesia seemed to combat Lyme better
than the Artemisinin, but that is a subjective
conclusion.

There are several online sources for the
Seven Forest Herbal Formulas. It is recommended
that you buy them from an ND, acupuncturist, or
knowledgeable practitioner.

Blue Skies.......John

[ 22. March 2007, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: jwf ]

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yanivnaced
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bumping up this old thread.

seems like Lymenet was a more interesting place several months ago.

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Keebler
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-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search for COPTIS: 228 abstracts

===========================

Coptis is one of the best supplements I've ever taken. It has berberine in it, as do many plants, and really helps me feel better. It's like eating food that really goes to my cells. Mostly from herbal supplements, I feel like I'm getting nutrition that is put to work.

I can't explain it very well, but sometimes, bitter (cold) herbs used to clear toxic heat (as the term is) are mixed with other herbs neutral or warm in nature to soften or help it work better, sometimes to improve taste if that is important.

Usually herbs that are cold in nature are not mixed with other cold herbs but with a warm herb. Mixing one or two, or three cold/bitter herbs is likely to be very hard on the stomach/GI system.

A warm herb, too, would not be mixed with another warm herb, but with a cool one. This balance can make a difference in how it affects the digestion or take the heat out of a fever. It lessens side-effects and helps the combination to be more effective.

It's best to work with a professional trained in this area, although I know location and finances do not always allow that.


there's a lot said in the history of Chinese Medicine about terms such as wind, stagnation, dampness, heat, cold, etc. Knowing what that means and how to determine is not easy.

Professionals trained in pulse diagnosis can tell often just from reading the various pulses in each wrist. Two people with a cold may be treated very differently, depending upon how that affects their body.

One of the naturopathic physician with whom I worked rotated my formula every three weeks and instructed me to take one day a week supplement free. With so many various herbs available, rotating frequently helps the body not get to too used to - or allergic -to a formula. Sometimes, just changing one or two of the ingredients can address shifts in symptoms, too.

And, as stated in the literature on some herbals, many can be taken concurrently with antibiotics - but perhaps at different times of the day - according the treating doctors. Sometimes the herbal supplement helps the antibiotic work even better or ward of side-effects.

And, as many have mentioned, getting clean a supplement is vital. Knowing the process from where it's grown, what's been put on it, how is it stored, shipped and handled really matters.
Organic is best, but not always possible.

Standardized means a lot. Regarding strength, there is a big difference in the whole (or raw) herb, extracts, tinctures and granules. The parts of a plant used also can make a difference as can the time of harvest.

Different species, also, have differences. Herbs usually have two names. I can't say it right, but some names can be similar in name, but very different in action. Be sure exactly which one you are studying.

Good health habits are a way of life for most employing supplements. The use of alcohol or smoking is discouraged -

Although, some of the formulas can be helpful for those in transition regarding such - and practitioners are usually well-versed in this area.

======

One book that explains a lot is THE ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK - much of which is on-line through http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/welcome/

-

THE WEB THAT HAS NO WEAVER is another good book, though not specific for TBI.

-

"HEALING LYME" by Buhner is a very good book for our specific education, as is "Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine" by Zhang. Amazon has them both.


-

as mentioned above for specific articles, www.itmonline.org has many articles on the history and use of herbs. They also have a list of professionals from around the world to whom they can refer patients.

I'd ask the same questions of a naturopathic physcian or acupuncturist though, regarding how LL they are and if they are familiar with ILADS.

I've worked with some fine complementary professionals, but if they don't know about lyme and TBI, they just don't cut it. This is like no other sort of infection that most have worked with and it affects so many systems and organs that the reading of ILADS' works is vital to understanding. If they choose to adapt their treatments they must understand the spirochete forms and behavior and coinfections, too.

-

PubMed often has abstracts on supplements, too. Although, generally, they focus on a single ingredient, not the blended formulas as usually used in practice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search for COPTIS: 228 abstracts

-

[ 02. January 2008, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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canefan17
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bump
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canefan17
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Bump coptis again

hepapro says this is one of their mmost popular herbs among their Lyme customers

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Keebler
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-
When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods:

if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -

- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )

Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.

When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.

-----------------------

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/13964

How to find an ILADS-educated LL:

N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor);

L.Ac. (Acupuncturist);

D.Ay. (Doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine);

D.O.M. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine);

etc.

Various articles and books here, too.
-

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Carol in PA
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I found out that I was positive for Lyme in December 2003.
After reading everything on Dr. Zhang's website about how he treats using Traditional Chinese Medicine, I bought his herbs from Hepapro and followed his protocol for Lyme during June, July, and August 2004.

I felt much better that summer, but stopped after three months.


I found out a year ago that Coptis contains Berberine, and I began taking Berberine, two 500 mg capsules per day.
I noticed improvements in my symptoms, including less pain and headache.

After a month or so, I noticed that my gastrointestinal reflux was improving, and I no longer had to worry about inhaling stomach contents when I was sleeping.


I stopped the Berberine for five or six weeks, and began having more stomach problems again.
When I woke up after bringing up stomach contents in my sleep, I realized that I had better restart the Berberine.

I restarted with one capsule of Berberine 500 mg daily, and have continued with that since January.
I have not had any incidents of aspiration since then.


I'm kicking myself that I did not continue with the Coptis after I used it in 2004.


Read about Berberine at Wikipedia, impressive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberine

[ 07-05-2013, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Carol in PA ]

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Keebler
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-
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=121034;p=0

BERBERINE - LINKS SET
-

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lpkayak
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carol-did the berberine make it possible for you to not take the reflux meds?

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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lpkayak
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i feel like im in a time capsule...i wonder where jimbob is...

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Carol in PA
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lpkayak said, "did the berberine make it possible for you to not take the reflux meds?"

Correct.
I didn't need meds for reflux.

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ms dixie
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This is great info and jwf's story is INSPIRING . Wish e could hear from him again.
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ms dixie
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This is great info and jwf's story is INSPIRING . Wish we could hear from him again.
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