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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Bee Venom Therapy

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Author Topic: Bee Venom Therapy
Getting Better
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Has anyone used bee venom therapy (bvt) for lyme arthritis?

Have you used the topical creams or honey with bv?

Do they work?

Is it better to do injections? Why?

What are the downsides of using bvt? e.g., will it hurt at first and make us feel more awful for a while?

--------------------
Jeff

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hardynaka
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Someone in lymenet forum has used it, but I don't know if it was for lyme arthritis.

Maybe you can post the question there as here no one answered!

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GiGi
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I have used it extensively. I didn't like it, but it must have contributed to getting to the critters.

Suggest contacting the person I e-mailed you about.

The topical bee venom creams are good for certain things, but if you want to get at the organisms, the bee venom with needle pricks works better.

Take care.

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Getting Better
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Bee venom therapy is used in Europe and Canada for arthritis and MS.

I want to use it to treat my hip joint pain from lyme arhtritis, which continues to be a major symptom after 1.5 years of tx.

Thanks Gigi I reached that practitioner's cell.

--------------------
Jeff

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pq
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yes, it works. i had 2.5wks total relief of all large limb joints. dramatic relief. i don't recall about teh finger and toe joints. [Wink]

careful though, because peta may indict you for being an apian abattoir in teh petco critter box. [lol]

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pq
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quote:
Originally posted by JeffM:
Has anyone used bee venom therapy (bvt) for lyme arthritis?

Have you used the topical creams or honey with bv?

Do they work?

Is it better to do injections? Why?

What are the downsides of using bvt? e.g., will it hurt at first and make us feel more awful for a while?

i tried bv in honey, but at $20/jar, the cost: benefit ratio isn't worth it. i did have a jar, but ramped up the number of teaspoons to ____? until i reached 1/4jar.

at some point, i got an effect most near what might have been vertigo, but it was not vertigo(had that several times, pre-lyme, so i know what that is.

a slight, but distinct wooziness(?) would best describe the effect.

i stopped the oral intake, having ascribed the effect to cardiogenic syncope( my Dx, which is probably incorrect),and this effect stopped when i stopped the bv in the honey.

resources to seriously consider before doing this systematically; notwithstanding an allergic reaction, there is good chance you'll do "night-night," [Eek!] , as there are interactions of effects with many medications.

if your allergic, there are doctors who can desensitize you, but this takes time.:

http://www.apitherapy.org.

best to join,by subscribing to their journal.
highly recommended.

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VLSer
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I have used BVT quite a bit, it does seem to help, but still have very bad lyme. Check out the following sites:

http://www.reyahsbeesness.com/

http://www.dancingbeeacres.com/Bee.html

http://www.apitherapy.org/

Get a membership to the American Apitherapy Society (the above link).

Good luck, and if you have more questions, PM me.

VLSer

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Getting Better
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Thanks for the info so far.

Dr. K has a protocol that I would follow and I was able to contact his bee venom supplier in Canada.

What I really want to know is whether it's worth all the trouble and expense.

I would much rather use bee venom than painkillers to address the lyme-caused hip arthritis.

I want to investigate more. There are allusions in Dr. K's work that the bee venom actually helps kill the spirochetes.

I am finding that hard to understand ... how.

From many of the posts on her which I agree with, there is no silver bullet. This is a multisystemic illness. It's important to hit it from a number of angles -- abx, detox from die-off, detox from heavy metals/teeth, building immune system (I know mine is shot) etc.

--------------------
Jeff

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pq
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you should be able to find "mellitin" or bee-venom in med. abstracts for this site. in vitro study.
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GiGi
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The pain relieving effect of bee venom in the treatment of clinical conditions similar to Lyme Disease has been established a long time ago. Bee venom contains a number of potent peptides which are responsible for its healing effect ("Bee Venom Therapy for Chronic Pain," Dietrich Klinghardt, J. of Neurol and orthop. Med and Surg/. Vp; ;;. Issue 9, Oct. 1990, pp.195-197) Recent research proved that one of the peptides in bee venom. melittin, has a strong inhibitory effect on the Lyme spirochete at very low doses ("Bee Stings as Lyme Inhibitor" bu L. L. Lubke and C.F. Garon, J. Clin.Infect.Disease, Kuly 1997, 25 Suppl. 1, pp.48-51) When the spirochete is inhibited it does not multiply and is vulnerable to the host's own immune system and medication.

The dosage and frequency of treatment is determined by the patient's clinical response. Patients with Babesia or mycoplasma infections require higher dosages than those with only B. Burgdorferi infections. by DK

Reserach on The antimicrobial Agent Melittin Exhibits in Vitro Inhibitory Effects on the Lyme Disease Spirochete. Lubke and Garon, Rocky Mountain Laboratories, Hamilton, Montana.

I have the research - you will find it readily on the internet, I am sure.

Take care.

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GiGi
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A supplier of "healthy" bee venom is M. Simics, www.beevenom.com

It's good to know what and where a trigger point is or to have some familiarity with Neural Therapy.

Jeff, I don't think anyone will give you a written guarantee whether a modality will work or not. I made it a rule that anything I did not have any faith in or could not approach with a positive healthy attitude, I stayed away from. Believing in something is halfway there. And that is not something out of fairland. That's the way the body and mind work. That's what I learned during my ordeal with this disease.

I just plain old did not like the bee stings - some people do it once or more times a week and benefit from it. It is a favorite of Dr. K.

Take care.

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Getting Better
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I started this therapy two weeks ago. I got a trial sting to make sure I would not have an allergic reaction. I got stwo stings yesterday from live bees.

I am herxing like hell today. It's like last year -- except no mental herx, just the aches and nausea.

PCP says there is evidence it kills the lyme. I think the herx may support this theory.

--------------------
Jeff

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hillaryb
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Jeff--

One of my first Lyme symptoms was arthritis in my hip (in 1999). Coincidentally, I've been getting bee venom injections since 1997 for severe anaphalactic allergies to bees/wasps.

Looking back over my 7 years of arthritis & bee venom injections, I see no correlation between the injections and relief of arthritic pain (but of course the injections were to build up an immunity to bee stings, not to treat the arthritis). As the years went by and my venom dose increased, so did my arthritic pain. I don't think that the allergy shots increased my arthritis, but I don't think that they helped alleviate it either.

I have reduced my arthritis tremendously since July by treating for Lyme/mold/yeast through daily infrared sauna, anti-yeast/mold diet, and a rx protocol for both Lyme and mold.

Good luck!

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Moosie
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This is extremely interesting to me.

I began bee venom injections about a month and a half ago in an effort to not have to carry and use an epipen anymore. Conflicts with high blood pressure meds I was taking.

Since beginning the therapy, and with each increase in dosage, I've been having WORSE joint swelling and other RA-like symptoms.

I have wondered if there is a connection. Could I be herxing?

Moosie

--------------------
Trying to figure it all out.

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pq
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pq
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pq
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MariaA
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Hey, Jeff- do you want to update this thread with your experiences with bee venom?

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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Ladylee210
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I too am researching the use of BEE products.

The following is what I have recentaly ordered - from www.DurhamsBeeFarm.com:

Queen's Delight....

It is "Royal JellY"

"Propolis" - known for it's antiseptic , antifugal, antibacterial and antioxidant properties. For Immune support.
It has cleansing effect on the bloodstream, dispensing unwanted bacteria and fungal parasites - reduces symptoms from inviromental toxins and food allergies. Also maximizes vit c..

"Bee Pollen"

This product is not recommended for those allergic to bees.

Check out the web site and see what you think.

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lalalu
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I used to sting myself quite a bit (10-12 every other day). It is an addictive and healing therapy. The melittin in the venom is anti-spirochetal. It is anti-inflammatory and increases the body's natural cortisol levels.

For joint and muscle pain, it is EXCELLENT. You get quite a natural lift in energy also.

I have the name of a guy who mails the bees to you in a tiney wooden crate (size of atoothbrush holder). You use tweezers to place the bee on your skin. Start slowly, with one sting and increase over time.

Be certain that you are not allergic and also have an epi-pen available, in case you have a reaction.

Please PM me for more info. It is a fantastic and inexpensive therapy if you use the bees themselves.

--------------------
http://chroniclyme.blogspot.com/

"Illnesses, hover constantly above us, their seed blown by the winds, but they do not set in the terrain unless the terrain is ready to receive them."---Claude Bernard.

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CaliforniaLyme
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JeffM- bee venom therapy is one of the few alternative therapies that I endorse!!!!!!!
I knew a woman with MS whose husband died of ALS/Lyme who did great with it- she was great!!!
I am too much of a coward to try it and have no reason to frankly because I am at 99.9% but I
have met a few credible people who haev been helped greatly by it- it is intriguing!!!!
Good luck with it-
we haev apiaries near hear- Pacific Crest Apiaries is right by where my older daughter horseback rides!!!!
Also my uncle is a beekeeper and taught me how to walk among hives when I was a kid and so I have always found them neat because of that memory of walking amidst the swirling mass of them- and he had great faith in their powers to help arthritis- stimulate the immune system-

I believe in acupunture as well for same reason- supplemtnal therapy that stimulates the immune system- have never done either but think they are both great-
Best wishes,
Sarah

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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MariaA
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Bees hurt, accupuncture doesn't (usually! and certainly not at all like bee stings!). No reason to be afraid of accupuncture...

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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seewater69
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Hello,

those who sting yourselves with live bees, how do you do it? I have been stung in the garden by accident and for 2 weeks after I was so much better. I thought this was rubbish but I believe in it now.

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Dawn in VA
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Description:
Melittin is a major component of honeybee venom. It is an antimicrobial peptide, a string of amino acids, or proteins, in a bent a-helical rod.

"One of the best-investigated cytolyticpeptides from the bee family is melittin, the major component of the honeybee Apis mellifera venom. Hundreds of publications are available on its biological activity, structure and membrane interactions."

Melittin is cationic (positively charged) and kills bacteria by interacting with the bacteria's membrane. Production of melittin is stimulated upon bacterial injury as a defense mechanism.

Melittin has several mechanisms of activity, including forming channels (or poking holes) in red blood cells or microbial membranes.

Melittin is composed of a tetrameric helix-bend-helix structure with two helical segments. These segments are positioned between amino acid residues 1-10 and 13-26 and the bend region is within residues 11-12.

"Melittin readily binds to red blood cells where the peptides cause an increase in permeability for sodium and potassium ions..."(Bechinger 1999)

"Among stinging hymenopteran insects, antimicrobial peptides are best investigated from the hemolymph of the honeybee Apis mellifera, as a recent review reports. After bacterial injury, the proline-rich 18-residue apidaecins, the 34-residue abaecins and the glycine-rich hymenoptaecin with 93 residues are present in micromolar concentration in the hemolymph. All three peptide groups are devoid of cysteine. Apidaecins are activea gainst Gram-negative bacteria and lack a pore-forming activity. This peptide group shows a stereospecific interaction with bacterial targets and a direct effect on protein biosyntheses" (Kuhn-Nentwig 2003).

"In general, they [antimicrobial peptides such as melittin] target a microbe's cytoplasmic membrane, damaging it fatally and in many cases actually also permeating the membrane to inactivate further the intracellular targets. Bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and even viruses are commonly susceptible. The nature of the microbial target, being the design and composition of the microbial membrane, results in the low probability that a microbe can evolve a defense against this type of weapon (Zasloff 2003).

"Briefly, melittin is characterized by a hydrophobic N-terminus and a helix kink induced by the GXP motif followed by a more polar amidated C-terminal part. It is a bent a-helical rod as determined from crystals grown in aqueous solutions. At 40% of the dry weight, melittin is the main component in bee venom followed by phospholipase A2 with 10-12%. The peptide causes lysis of erythrocytes from different species and induces release of histamine from mast cells, bilayer micellization, membrane fusion and voltage dependent ion channels across planar lipid bilayers. Melittin interacts with many proteins such as calmodulin [99], calsequestrin, myosin light chains, negatively charged lipids and gangliosides. Its affinity for negatively charged lipids is about 100-fold greater than for zwitterionic lipids. Melittin facilitates the activity of phospholipase A2, the mast cell degranulating peptide P401 from honeybeevenom, protein kinase C and Ca/calmodulin-dependent protein kinase II. Inhibitory activities of melittin have been described for many ion-motive ATPases. In addition to the effects just described, melittin shows an insecticidal activity toward D. melanogaster, acts antimicrobially to Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria and to fungi in the micromolar range, and is nearly as active as cytolytic peptides from spider venoms" (Kuhn-Nentwig 2003).

"A common characteristic observed for membrane-active peptides is their capability to disturb bilayer integrity, either by disruption or pore formation. The resulting openings in the lipid bilayer lead to the collapse of the transmembrane electrochemical gradients and, therefore, can explain the cell-killing activities of these peptides" (Bechinger 1999)

What makes melittins interesting is that they are very well characterized. They have several different mechanisms of activity, are made with local materials, with simple ingredients found within the organism, created at room temperature, and produced on an as-needed basis. Melittins readily adapt to changing conditions effectively targeting and destroying microbes. Melittins also multitask, not only killing microbes but also modulating inflammatory response, wound repair, cell division, and adaptive immune response (Huttner 1999).

The unique properties and functions of melittins may inspire innovation in such fields and industries as paint manufacturing (protective coatings and finishes), the construction industry (prolong material life through rot/mold resistance), wood preservation (anti-rot, anti-mold), the bath and tile industry (anti-mildew surfaces, grout), and health care (anti-infective drugs that offer an alternative to antibiotics).

From
http://database.biomimicry.org/item.php?table=strategy&id=1075

Interesting...

--------------------
(The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.)

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GiGi
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It is not advisable to use life bees - If you do not feel bad that the bee has to die while stinging you because she leaves her stinger behind in your body, maybe the fact that she empties her "gut" (the sack containing her faeces) into you also while performing her sting may keep you from using life bees.


For therapeutical use:
The bee venom is collected by "inviting" the bees to sting into a certain of membrane, leaving her venom behind, keeping her stinger and flying off instead of having to die due to the loss of her stinger.

The cleanest bee venom collected in the most pristine areas of the north can be purchased from Michael Simics in Canada. I have done it lots of times and Dr. K. has been getting his bee venom supply from that source which he has been using in practice for over 30 years. It is clean.

Bee venom should only be administered by a medical professional trained in it. See articles on www.neuraltherapy.com:[/B] "Treatment of Lyme Disease with Bee Venom"
and

"Bee Venom".


Take care.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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seewater69
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"Bee venom should only be administered by a medical professional trained in it. See articles on www.neuraltherapy.com:[/B] "Treatment of Lyme Disease with Bee Venom"
and

"Bee Venom"."

This is the difficult part, where do I find such medical professional etc etc?

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GiGi
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not knowing where you live in Europe, a number of Klinghardt therapists (MD's, ND's, etc.) practice this therapy in Germany and other countries.
They test with ART (Autonomic Response Testing) or, in German, with RD (Reaktions Diagnostik) before any treatment whatsoever.
www.INK.ag

The (INK) Institute of Neurobiology is represented in several other countries. You can find out there where the therapists are.

Take care.

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Getting Better
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Absolute nonsense. I and my doctor believe you should use live bees. The venom is far superior to that which is taken and injected.

We pray for the bees as we use them. However, my pure Buddhist friends would not do it either.

Baloney on only a doc should give them. Once you know you are not allergic, and go carefully, anyone can do this therapy. A licensedperson should show you, and oversee. Many, many people with arthritis do this regularly.

--------------------
Jeff

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GiGi
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Jeff, don't wait too long because the real honey bees did not appear in many areas of the country and the rest of the world. If you don't hurry, you may not have any healthy ones to kill.

Maybe you have not heard some of the news this year.

A medical professional usually is a "licensed person".

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bejoy
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I use bee venom ointment called Venex from Apitronics. It is available without a prescription. It has helped me tremendously.

When I first started using it, it made my skin itch and burn for about 20 minutes.

After using it for several months I no longer have a skin reaction to the creme, and my tolerated dose and my good health continue to increase.

My neuro symptoms are almost gone, and my energy level is much better.

I am using several other kinds of lyme treatments concurrently.

I am working with a doctor trained in neural therapy and I expect to start venom injections within the next couple of weeks.

To find a professional to work with, you might want to contact Dr. K to find out who in your area has been trained by him in neural therapy.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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seewater69
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Thank you GIGI!

I think the problem is that you can become allergic later, even when you are not on the first few stings, Anyway, winter is at the door and bees are going to sleep so...

thank you all, I think this is the way to go for me...

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CaliforniaLyme
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JeffM- our local Apiary votes live bees as well-

The woman, Dana, who is adorable and an ardent beekeeper herself, stings (at his request) her husband Ed (same name as my H!) with bees so they may be open to this for others as well-
They sell bee pollen which they say is good for allergies and honey & homemade candles and LOVE bees & beekeeping!

What I didn't know- they will rescue swarms and many beekeepers will- so if you come across a swarm instead of calling your local exterminator call your local beekeeper who can come & move the hive & save it instead of killing it!!!!!
So that's a cool fact to pass on (help save our planet*)!*)*!) Save the bees*)!!!

Pacific Crest Apiaries
http://www.pacificcrestapiaries.com/index.html

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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seewater69
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Hi Bejoy,

can you tell me more about your treatment?

Thank you

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bejoy
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Hi, I'll tell you what I have done:

I became interested in Bee venom therapy after reading protocols from Dr. K. and neuraltherapy.com.

I tried bee venom ointment from apitronics, beevenom.com rather than start with a comittment to injections.

It's about $20. a tube, that should last about a month if used according to directions. I used much less.

The ointment is recommended for arthritis symptoms, not for lyme treatment. Injections are recommended for lyme.

It took me about three months to work up to the dosage of ointment recommended by apitronics for arthritis symptoms.

The first week I had a very bad headache, (a common transient side-effect, according to the package.)

I had some of my worst herxes from a very low dose of bee venom ointment. (Measured in inches, about 1/4 inch twice a day.)

I sometimes wondered what reactions were from Lyme die-off, and what might have been from other sensitivities to the venom. I don't know.

The first month my daily reaction was release of muscle rigors and increase in energy, followed by intense muscle aches and fatigue.

The second month I noted a profound change in my neuro symptoms. My head cleared, my fatigue lightened up, my coorditation and word search improved, and I was able to reduce my Cortef (cortisol, adrenal support) by about i/3.

The end of the second month my splean and lymph got overloaded, I got severe back pain between the shoulder blades, and I had to stop most of my treatments for about a week to detox.

Upon using bee venom again, I found that I could use almost the full recommended dosage with minimal herx.

My muscle aches and stiffness reduced to the point that I can get out of my chair without hobbling away for the first few steps, and I found that I could touch my toes for the first time in several years.

Of course, if you are going to try it, it's always a good idea to try it with a friend present the first couple of times, because of the unlikely possibility of an anaphylactic reaction.

I hope my experience helps you with your decisions and treatment.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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GiGi
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Bejoy, you didn't mention any binding agents you took. Mop-ups. That would probably have helped to clear the released toxins more readily.

Just thought I would mention for anyone interested to never do anything that is intented to heal without supporting agents on board. Even bee venom sets a flood of toxins in motion that need to be helped out of the body as rapidly as possible. You will feel better if you do.

Take care.


Just sharing my experiences - I have done the exact same thing - I even tried the bee venom cream in my face because I was so sick of my drooping left side (looked like a stroke). I did feel it!!!! (Bejoy will probably agree with me on that), but I made it through. So do not use it anywhere near mucosa (eyes, lips, etc.)

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seewater69
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Hi Bejoy,

thank you for your story. A couple of questions:
I didn't get at which point of your story you switched to injections, or was all you described down to just the iointment?

Where you taking other forms of treatment while on the ointment or venom? Sometimes it is diffucult to separate which thing does what. I have mainly neuro symptoms.

Thank you!!

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treepatrol
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I have been thinking about this bee venom you know bees carry virus's? one in particular kills them the bees.

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

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bejoy
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I have not started injections yet, although I expect to. One thing at a time.

I'm pretty careful to stick with one new treatment at a time until I stop herxing on it much, and then move on to the next.

I also was not taking antibiotics at that time. I was taking a variety of herbs and supplements.

Interesting thought about bees carrying viruses. This whole problem started with a bug bite.

I tend to muscle test everything I use, myself every day, and with a professional once a month.

I have great confidence in this approach to detect what is going to work well in my body and what won't, along with whatever research is available.

I know this method doesn't appeal to or make sense to everybody.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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seewater69
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Hi Bejoy,

so how do you know it is the bee venom cream that has done you good and not something else?

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bejoy
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Hi Seawater,

I don't know anything for sure. I'm just describing my experience.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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seewater69
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Don't worry Bejoy,

my answer was no judgement, I was just wondering if you thought that it was the bee venom that really made the difference or if you were unsure,

thank you

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Truthfinder
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Have any of you used homeopathic bee venom (Apis mellafica)?

Boy, that stuff really helped me with swelling in my legs and feet this summer after an accident - the Lasix the docs gave me did nothing but give me side effects. I had never used it before.

Apis is often an indicated remedy in treatment of arthritis, as well as in treatment of bee stings. So, this could be an excellent alternative to those with allergic reactions to bee venom.

Of course, always check with your health care professional before using homeopathic products long-term. Treating yourself for short periods for an acute problem with potencies up to 30C is generally considered safe, but always consult a practitioner if you are in doubt.

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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bejoy
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Seawater, no problem, I just wanted to be clear that I really can't know for sure what is responsible for my improvement.

All I can do is share my experience so others will be able to compare if they try the medication.

I'm really quite convinced that bee venom was responsible for the improvement I saw during the three months I described.

I'm careful to try one new thing at a time until I stop herxing or getting an immediate and major benefit from it.

I can't see what else would have been giving me the positive reaction, although the continuation of artemicin, teasel, and garlic, and nutritional supplements and homeopathics probably helped quite a bit.

I'm still using the ointment, but have begun other kinds of treatments since the description I posted.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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seewater69
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Hi bejoy,

I am going to buy this cream, how do you use it? do you apply it anywhere and all over or just in some places? is there a best area of application to reach the brain?

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GiGi
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Tracy, my next project is making a homeo with the bee venom (I need to get fresh one) and use it as we use others with green laser. "Laser Balancing" - if interested, look it up on www.andreannarainville.com

I have not used the oral apis, but all others.

Take care.


Just sharing my experiences.

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bejoy
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Hi See,

Again, I really don't know for sure.

Like GiGi, I woudn't want to use it on the face or head. I tried it on my TMJ once, and the stinging on my face was pretty distressing.

The directions say to apply it on several affected areas. Using it on the back of my neck seemed to help me.

I would advise that you ramp up slowly. Using the amount suggested in the package was way too much for me, especially in the beginning.

Let us know how it goes.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Truthfinder
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Thanks, GiGi - I checked out that link the last time it was posted. A friend has decided to try the lasering so I'm looking forward to some of her feedback on it.

Better you than me out there collecting that `fresh' Apis. Most of those critters are already asleep here locally, anyway..... [Smile]

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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GiGi
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Tracy, I get it from the"professional" venom collector in Canada. I hardly saw a bee in our yard this summer and it really worries me - wonder if people realize?

Take care.


Just sharing.

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seewater69
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Thank you Bejoy!


GiGi, don't worry, the bees must have all transferred to my garden, we had loads over the summer, I planted too many flowers they like

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