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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Warning about Epsom Salts

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Author Topic: Warning about Epsom Salts
luvs2ride
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I don't read where this happened to anyone else here but I will post my experience for anyone it may benefit.

From the start of this illness I have experienced severe joint pain. Whenever I would soak in Epsom Salts, it would feel great while I'm soaking but 20 mins later I would be in more pain.

After many months and much improvement, my hands ached a little one night and so I soaked only the hands in a pan of Epsom Salt water.

Next morning I had a flare up in my jaw, shoulders, neck, knees and ankles. Because I can be really stupid sometimes, that night I decided to soak in a tub of Epsom Salts. Next day I could barely walk. The pain seemed to have moved into my muscles and it hurt real bad to swing my right leg forward. In fact, the majority of the pain was on my right side from shoulder to foot. I stayed in bed as it was Sunday and I could. Monday I still hurt but by evening I was back to normal.

Yesterday when I met with my doctor, I asked him why I am having this reaction to Epsom Salts. His theory is detoxing the metals. He has told me before that my elimination system was too weak to process the toxins and that if he began chelation of the metals it would be like hitting me with a baseball bat. We are working on it and I am getting so much better. He hopes to start chelating in 2 mths. Frankly, I am dreading it if that is an example of the pain I will feel.

Just wanted to share this in case someone else experiences this problem when they soak.

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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geniveve
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oh man, i wish someone had told me also what to expect. sometimes i can do ok with the bath othertimes i hurt so bad the next day i can't move.

no rhyme or reason, just some days i can go it and some days i can't.

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kelmo
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Much worse. My daughter looked like an inflamed tomato. In so much pain. This was at the time we thought she only had "fibro". She soaked an hour a day for two months.

Our LLMD (a lot of disagreement here) said that the bacteria harbor the magnesium, use it as a proteciton, and it gives them a chance to multiply.

It took several months of sauna and hot baths to start the detox of that stuff, and my daughter is doing much better. She sometimes adds apple cider vinegar to her bath or hydrogen peroxide.

The saunas are the best, though.

My opinion only.....do not use epsom. Just take a break and see if you improve.

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Tracy9
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Wow, that is amazing. I use them all the time and never noticed that....but then again I probably would never make the connection. I'm really disappointed to read this; they are one of the few things I like to use that seem to really help!

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13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG.

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Porsche
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I don't think that the idea of Mag working as a chelator and sucking toxins out through the skin is feasible. I was loaded with mercury and other metals, and I didn't have any pain with chelation whatsoever. If it were true, then Dr's would be using Mag to chelate instead of DMSA or DMPS, but they don't because it doesn't work..

I think that Kelly's Dr might be right about it strengthening or stirring up the bacteria. Bart loves mag, and it may get a little stronger when so much mag is absorbed through the skin in such a short time. I doubt if it is toxin or heavy metal related.

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Nal
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quote:
Originally posted by luvs2ride:
I don't read where this happened to anyone else here but I will post my experience for anyone it may benefit.

From the start of this illness I have experienced severe joint pain. Whenever I would soak in Epsom Salts, it would feel great while I'm soaking but 20 mins later I would be in more pain.

After many months and much improvement, my hands ached a little one night and so I soaked only the hands in a pan of Epsom Salt water.

Next morning I had a flare up in my jaw, shoulders, neck, knees and ankles. Because I can be really stupid sometimes, that night I decided to soak in a tub of Epsom Salts. Next day I could barely walk. The pain seemed to have moved into my muscles and it hurt real bad to swing my right leg forward. In fact, the majority of the pain was on my right side from shoulder to foot. I stayed in bed as it was Sunday and I could. Monday I still hurt but by evening I was back to normal.

Yesterday when I met with my doctor, I asked him why I am having this reaction to Epsom Salts. His theory is detoxing the metals. He has told me before that my elimination system was too weak to process the toxins and that if he began chelation of the metals it would be like hitting me with a baseball bat. We are working on it and I am getting so much better. He hopes to start chelating in 2 mths. Frankly, I am dreading it if that is an example of the pain I will feel.

Just wanted to share this in case someone else experiences this problem when they soak.

So, does he say that soaking in epsom salt baths will help with the detox or not?

Nancy

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elley0531
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but magnesium is one of the supplements that are recommended to Lyme patients by Doctor B...I thought we needed mag o fight the Lyme?

I was told feeling like crap after epsom salts is probably because you're herxing or detoxing or both.

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lucy96734
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The 1 supplement I was told to take by my LLMD was mag, he said to take 2,500 a day or as much as I could without having stomach upset. He said it was needed during my treatment.

I also did heavy metal chelation and had no pain, just a metalic taste in my mouth.

The baths make me a little tired after but don't add to my joint pain. This disease is so freaking odd.

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Lucy

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hatsnscarfs
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The baths have been great for me. In the beginning they wiped me out. Over the last year, Epsom Salt baths have enabled me to resume a near normal work schedule. I need to soak in the morning to get toxin levels down. Now I feel energized after the baths.
hatsnscarfs

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*Daisy*
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Hi there!

I am newly registered but have been lurking for many months. I have been sick for years but only found out last year that I had lyme.

I tried one of the epsom baths and had 2 weeks of increased pain in my neck and shoulders. That is the only thing I did different so I know it was the bath. I had to double the dose of my pain meds too.

I use my sauna every other day and it helps so much!! I love it, thanks for the tip on the epsom, I didn't put 2 & 2 together until I read your post!! [loco]

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Daisy

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seibertneurolyme
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This is just my opinion.

I think the baths cause a reaction when one is severely depleted of nutrients. There may be a certain combination of vitamins, minerals or amino acids which if you are deficient in them you have a worse reaction.

When hubby had his mercury detox problem a year before his Lyme diagnosis he had a problem with the baths. They did not bother him while he was soaking, but later during the night he would have shooting pains in his spine and also worse tremors and dry heaves. He had chronic gastritis at the time and was deficient in many things including B12.

During his worst herxes while on herbal treatment for Lyme (before antibiotics) he had a couple of seizures in the tub. At the time he was doing saunas and the temp in Kansas was in the high 90's and 100's most days. I think he was simply being depleted of too many nutrients and that is why he had such bad reactions.

He has since done these with no problems.

Remember, epsom salts is magnesium sulfate (magnesium + sulphur) -- oral supplements are magnesium only and are usually poorly absorbed. Will absorb much more thru your skin in a bath.

Just use common sense and if the bath makes you feel bad -- GET OUT OF THE TUB ASAP!!! Try again another day for a shorter period of time or use less epsom salts.

Bea Seibert

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bettyg
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To the originator of this post, please copy the link and paste it to TREEPATROL'S NEWBIE LINKS. Ask him to add it next time he updates his list...vital info here from you all.

In the past, epson salt baths always helped me.

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johnnyb
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This is interesting, because a LOT of other posts I've seen focus on Mg as a BIG helper in beating lyme, and specify that we may be Mg deficient as lymies.

As stated before, though, Epsom Salts are Magnesium Sulfate, and from my other research, I think Sulfur CAN stir up heavy metals in the body, so maybe that is the culprit, as opposed to the Magnesium.

People on frequent dose chelation are advised to avoid sulfurous foods.

Just a theory. What do I know?....

- JB

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shazdancer
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My experience has been the same as hatsandscarfs'. It used to make me very tired when I was sick, but definitely soothed the aches. Now, it soothes the aches AND I feel rejuventated. I use no more than 2 cups or so in a full bath.

Interesting responses -- yet another thing to add to the list of aspects of this disease that need investigating. I'd suggest TRYING epsom salts, especially if you have joint/muscle issues, but be sure someone is available to help you at first, in case you have an adverse reaction.

Regards,
Shaz

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Marnie
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How much Mg sulfate did you add to the bath? Did you use TEPID water? Did you also add Na bicarb - baking soda? How much? How long did you soak?

Zinc is toxic in high doses. If it is displaced from Bb (not DISSOLVED)this can be problematic.

What else can bind the zinc?

Cytidine deaminase ( 3.5.4.5 ) (cytidine aminohydrolase) catalyzes the hydrolysis of cytidine into uridine and ammonia while deoxycytidylate deaminase ( 3.5.4.12 ) (dCMP deaminase) hydrolyzes dCMP into dUMP.

Both enzymes are known to

bind zinc

and to require it for their catalytic activity [ 1 , 2 ].

These two enzymes do not share any sequence similarity with the exception of a region that contains three conserved histidine and cysteine residues which are thought to be involved in the binding of the catalytic zinc ion.

Such a region is also found in other proteins [ 3 , 4 ]:

Yeast cytosine deaminase ( 3.5.4.1 ) (gene FCY1) which transforms cytosine into uracil.

Mammalian apolipoprotein B mRNA editing protein, responsible for the postranscriptional editing of a CAA codon into a UAA (stop) codon in the APOB mRNA.

Riboflavin biosynthesis protein ribG, which converts 2,5-diamino-6-(ribosylamino)-4(3H)-pyrimidinone 5'-phosphate into 5-amino-6-(ribosylamino)-2,4(1H,3H)-pyrimidinedione 5'-phosphate.

Bacillus cereus blasticidin-S deaminase ( 3.5.4.23 ), which catalyzes the deamination of the cytosine moiety of the antibiotics blasticidin S, cytomycin and acetylblasticidin S.

Bacillus subtilis protein comEB. This protein is required for the binding and uptake of transforming DNA.

B. subtilis hypothetical protein yaaJ.

Escherichia coli hypothetical protein yfhC.

Yeast hypothetical protein YJL035c.

Bacillus species (Bacillus cereus, Bacillus clausii, Bacillus pumilus) carried in

*five commercial probiotic products*

consisting of bacterial spores were characterized for potential attributes (colonization, immunostimulation, and antimicrobial activity) that could account for their claimed probiotic properties.

PMID: 15066809

I can't say this enough...GET THE PROBIOTICS UP...LOADING DOSES... AND KEEP THEIR LEVELS UP.

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luvs2ride
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Whew! What a wide range of responses and ideas.

I posted here for the benefit of anyone who researches Epsom Salt baths. Especially if they have a similar reaction. If the baths are beneficial to you, by all means, keep doing them. I have used Epsom Salts all my life for minor sprains and sore muscles. I'm a horse rider. You don't enjoy that sport without some injuries along the way. I also have used Epsom Salts for my horses. They are athletes and also need soaks every now and then.

But since this illness, I have had this terribly painful reaction to each soak. I gave them up early on because of it but thought perhaps now I could enjoy them again. I love to soak in a hot tub (which without Epsom Salts feels very good and helps)

Porche, my doctor is getting me incredibly well and he is beginning to stand at the right hand of God in my eyes, so if he says its pulling metals, then I believe him. After all, I have tested highly toxic (3x highest acceptable limit) in lead and highly elevated in mercury.

Really, whether it is pulling metals or killing bugs, it is too painful for me. I like the slow and easy approach to getting well.

I am currently on a streak of no pain since 7/2/06.

Siebertlyme, My bloodwork shows my nutrient levels to be really good except my DHEA which was very low. The dr was very surprised at the metabolics on my metals test. He said they are usually very low when someone has the level of metals I have. Drs have been supplementing me ever since my diagnosis last Aug, so I guess that is working and probably not the issue here.

Nal, He said stop the baths. He is not into producing pain. We need to chelate the metals, but my liver and kidneys were so flat, my WBC were so sluggish they barely moved at all and my red blood cells were both clumping and linking a the time of my bloodtesting. So dr has been doing nothing but building up my system since April. He is doing this with oral and IV supplementation and I am just thriving under his care. He hopes to begin chelation in 2 mths. If those salt baths are any indicator, I am just dreading it.

BTW, I am gulping down fresh chopped garlic every day and he says this is a great natural chelator of mercury.

Elly, feeling like crap after a salt bath is herxing, detoxing or both. That is consistent with what my doctor said. Difference is, he doesn't want to see me herxing. Neither do I. We are still moving things from my body, just very slowly. He uses any pain as a sign we are going too fast. If you are into pain, then you can say the baths are a success.

Since I am painfree since 7/2/06, I think we are progressing in the right direction.

Hats, keep up the baths. Sounds like they are the right medicine for you, you lucky dog!

Marnie, I'm sure you said some really good things in your post but they just whiz right over my head......sigh!

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luvs2ride
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PS: Betty, I will try to do as you suggest. I have not done it before. Thanks for the suggestion.

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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elley0531
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I'm going to try one tonight, I'm a bit freaked out though...Maybe I'll just soak for 20 minutes and see how I do.
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kelmo
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We ARE mag deficient when we start this disease. The bacteria absorb all the magnesium in our body to create a protective biofilm.

See link: http://www.altcorp.com/AffinityLaboratory/biofilms.htm
Biofilm Structure calcium and magnesium

Biofilm Structure
Extracellular Polymeric Substances
Biofilms are composed primarily of microbial cells and EPS. EPS may account for 50% to 90% of the total organic carbon of biofilms[38] and can be considered the primary matrix material of the biofilm. EPS may vary in chemical and physical properties, but it is primarily composed of polysaccharides. Some of these polysaccharides are neutral or polyanionic, as is the case for the EPS of gram-negative bacteria. The presence of uronic acids (such as D-glucuronic, D-galacturonic, and mannuronic acids) or ketal-linked pryruvates confers the anionic property.[39] This property is important because it allows association of divalent cations such as calcium and magnesium, which have been shown to cross-link with the polymer strands and provide greater binding force in a developed biofilm.[38] In the case of some gram-positive bacteria, such as the staphylococci, the chemical composition of EPS may be quite different and may be primarily cationic. Hussain et al.[40] found that the slime of coagulase-negative bacteria consists of a teichoic acid mixed with small quantities of proteins.

My LLMD says that all his lyme patients are mag deficient in the beginning of treatment and are normal at the end of treatment without ever supplementing. As the bacteria die off, the mag is released back into the body.

I know that Dr. B states in his protocol to supplement, but I have found that publication to not be very helpful in my daughter's treatment. I think it needs another revision.

This is all my opinion, and I just wanted to pass along the information I have learned and what has worked for my daughter.

We have found that NOT supplementing with magnesium, but adding saunas has been helpful. Just raising the core temperature of the body gets the bacteria out of their hiding place and into the bloodstream.

Antibiotics don't kill bacteria, they only work to destroy the biofilm, allowing our own immune systems to attack the bacteria.

In this case, I believe that both antibiotic and herbal immune enhancement is the best plan of attack.

We'll see, we're still in the baby stage of this disease. And though it's hard to get her out of the house to the gym to sit in the hot sauna, when it is already 115 outside is a major production. She is tired afterward, but I see improvement.

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Marnie
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In your link...scroll up:

"Attachment
The solid-liquid interface between a surface and an aqueous medium (e.g., water, blood) provides an ideal environment for the attachment and growth of microorganisms."

Do you think Bb is attaching to our cell WALLS?

It is INTRACELLULAR. It is attaching to our DNA INSIDE THE CELLS.

So does salmonella...direct attachment to the DNA (protein) chain.

So you believe antibotics are capable of dissolving the PLAQUES that are functioning as "bandaids" over damaged/infected cells and once dissolved, the antibiotics can reach the infected cells?

"Scientists believe that antibiotics kill bacteria present in atherosclerotic plaques that develop in arteries. The presence of these bacteria is thought to increase the risk of plaque rupture, thus if an antibiotic can kill these bacteria the plaque should become more stable and therefore less likely to cause a stroke."

SOURCE/REFERENCE: Stroke, Aug 2003;

"Background Chlamydia pneumoniae has been found within atherosclerotic plaques, and elevated titers of antibody to this organism have been linked to a higher risk of coronary events."

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/352/16/1646

"The outer membrane (OM) of Gram-negative bacteria is a complex, layered structure that acts as a barrier to harmful compounds such as antibiotics.

The results of studies of OM biosynthesis using mutant strains have lacked clarity because OM-deficient mutants generally have defects in nonspecific permeability.

In a recent issue of Cell, Ruiz et al. describe 'chemical conditionality' screens to identify mutant E. coli strains that confer enhanced resistance to antibiotics.

Because the OM is generally impermeable to antibiotics, the authors started with an antibiotic-sensitive strain of E. coli (imp4213) that had a mutation affecting the Imp (increased membrane permeability) protein, causing an OM permeability defect..."

http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v1/n1/full/nchembio0605-11.html

Bb is a UNIQUE pathogen. It does NOT have an LPS layer (think of this as a sugar coating). Only mycoplasm has a similar cell (membrane).

Bb is capable of mutating to a huge degree!

Take a look at the pathways it takes:

http://www.genome.jp/kegg-bin/show_organism?menu_type=pathway_maps&org=bbu

This is NOT an easy pathogen to knock off!!!

To stay "chronic", it activates NFkB.

My son got food poisoning. Long story short, it has taken over 2 years to restore his mineral levels. My hairdresser had TOXEMIA of pregnancy and after delivery she went into a coma for 6 days and was near kidney failure. It took her over 2 years also, to rebalance the electrolytes.

Sorry...but I don't believe the nutrients bounce back that fast once someone has encountered something that is very, very toxic.

Antibiotic therapy, radiation therapy, chemotherapy...deplete nutrients...further.

Antibiotics do work on many pathogens. Bb is UNIQUE! It is following the glycolysis AND cholesterol pathways. We have to put the brakes on both pathways simultaneously.

Calcium is the element that cements plaque to artery walls making them hard and inflexible. Do you realize how hard it is to dissolve/displace that mineral? Think of how long our bones last...our skeletons. HUGE targeted pulses of frequencies to shatter calcium (kidney) stones = high blood pressure and diabetes a few years later. Along with Ca...there went Mg...

It took (recently) very high doses of Crestor to not only lower someone's blood pressure, but dissolve the plaques...

From the "inside out", not the "outside in". Halt cholesterol production (INactivate HMG CoA reductase) and in TIME, the body will repair itself once the infection is gone ie. the plaques disappear after the infection is gone.

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5dana8
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luvs2ride

Could it be the hot/warm bath & not the epson that drain you?

--------------------
5dana8

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oxygenbabe
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Luvs2ride, try bokek dead sea salts (www.saltworks.us) they are great, alkaline, much nicer than epsom salts. High in magnesium and potassium chlorides.

If you have trouble with epsom it is unlikely that sitting in a bath is mobilizing heavy metals.

It is more likely you have problems in your methylation cycle and the sulfate is bothering you.

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luvs2ride
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5dana8

My reaction to the epsom salt baths in not an energy drain. It is muscle and joint pain that is unbearable (and I have a very high tolerance to pain).

Normally, I am not having any muscle involvement with this illness, but after just soaking my hands, multiple joints flared up and after soaking my entire body, muscle pain combined with joint pain immobilized me.

Could be toxic die off or metal movement. Definitely affected parts of my body not normally involved as well as the normally affected parts.

A hot bath or shower or washing dishes even is very helpful as long as I don't add Epsom Salts.

Oxygenbabe,

I would like to try the Bokek Dead Sea Salts but hate to spend money on something that I try once and then can't use.

Truth is, as long as I watch what I eat, I am virtually painfree. I have just come off 10 days of no pain. What ended it was a week of eating all sorts of food in preparation for a food allergy blood test. I got through the week ok but didn't go back on the restrictive diet (keep hoping I'm well and over this stupid thing) and by Thurs night, the hands began to swell and hurt again. sigh....

Makes me think I may be Celiac. That or I'm feeding the yeast causing it to flare up. I can't think eating would directly affect the Bb, do you?

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When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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5dana8
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Luvs2ride:
"I can't think that eating would direactly effect the bb, do you?

Yes. BB doesn't need alot of things ie: oxygen ect.. but thrives on sugar. If you eat suagr or carbs that turn into sugar then yes, you are feeding bb.

Not passing judgement on your diet at all (don't know what it is) just passing information I have read along the way.

Take care and hope your swelling and pain will go away soon

--------------------
5dana8

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elley0531
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so I tried an epsom salt bath yesterday morning.

Felt nice while I was in it, stayed in for abotu 20 min.

My spine felt tingly afterwards but after that I was good to go...until about 1 am when I tried to sleep.

I got sleep apnea, muscle twitches everywhere, body spasms, spine tingling, face felt funny, neck stiffened up. Had to take klonopin to go to sleep.

Coincidence or epsom salts?

I also tried yoga yesterday morning, just some stretches...for about 1 minutes. Maybe that caused it?

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bugabooboo
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So calcium causes plaque deposits?

I feel much better when I take calcium.

Which calcium is best to keep this problem at a minimum?

Bug

--------------------
Every experience God gives us, every person He puts in our lives, is the perfect preparation for a future only He can see....Corrie Ten Boom

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Marnie
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Have you TESTED low in calcium? Do you have osteoporosis? Don't forget...our bones need: Ca, Mg, P, boron and vitamin D.

Calcium IS our most abundant mineral. Now we say the ratio should be 2:1 Ca:Mg. It is believed years ago it was 1:1 and many athletes use this ratio.

The thyroid gland isn't too happy if blood calcium levels are too high.

Citrates -> bicarbonates.

Citrates INactivate PFK...an enzyme Bb is dependent on.

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johnnyb
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quote:
Originally posted by elley0531:
so I tried an epsom salt bath yesterday morning.

Felt nice while I was in it, stayed in for abotu 20 min.

My spine felt tingly afterwards but after that I was good to go...until about 1 am when I tried to sleep.

I got sleep apnea, muscle twitches everywhere, body spasms, spine tingling, face felt funny, neck stiffened up. Had to take klonopin to go to sleep.

Coincidence or epsom salts?

I also tried yoga yesterday morning, just some stretches...for about 1 minutes. Maybe that caused it?

Apnea is no fun. Have you ever had a sleep study?
Posts: 1197 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
luvs2ride
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5dana8

Regarding the effect of food on Lyme, check out Marnie's recent post titled NFKB the tiny messenger (hope I got those initials right).

I learned about the effect diet has on arthritis from www.drmcdougall.com for my rheumatoid arthritis which is lyme induced. It is a tough diet for most as it is not only vegetarian but vegan meaning no dairy or eggs as well as no meat. No animal fat or protein of any kind. But I was totally disabled at that point and it had happened to me lightning fast, so I was willing to try. Within two weeks, I was 65% more functional. Today I am 100% most days, but occassionally I am still experiencing flares so I'm not well yet.

The diet was just the start (and a big start). My current doctor has me on all kinds of supplements. I checked them against another post Marnie has right now giving a layman's explanation about the NFKB where she lists the nutrients needed. Some of the supplements include these nutrients. So, food, even in supplement form, has a huge bearing on lyme.

I'm checking my urine daily for alkalinity and doing a pretty good job of staying alkaline. Still seem to be acidic at times. Again food is how you control your PH balance.

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
elley0531
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyb:
quote:
Originally posted by elley0531:
so I tried an epsom salt bath yesterday morning.

Felt nice while I was in it, stayed in for abotu 20 min.

My spine felt tingly afterwards but after that I was good to go...until about 1 am when I tried to sleep.

I got sleep apnea, muscle twitches everywhere, body spasms, spine tingling, face felt funny, neck stiffened up. Had to take klonopin to go to sleep.

Coincidence or epsom salts?

I also tried yoga yesterday morning, just some stretches...for about 1 minutes. Maybe that caused it?

Apnea is no fun. Have you ever had a sleep study?
no I haven't...not even sure where to look for one. For much are they? Its def. Lyme related for me, it feels like I'll fall asleep and my lungs will be too lazy to breathe after I pass out, so they'll stop and I'll end up waking up from it.

I don't get it every night, just on occassion..but yes it is quite awful

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Marnie
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Food...ah, yes...the very safest way! Absolutely.

Lot to be said about a vegetarian diet.

And the Bible tells us...when ill, return to the fruits, veggies, seeds and nuts.

They are "electromagnetically" balanced and highly nutritious....well, they used to be...prior to pesticides.

Wash all your fruits and veggies before eating.

The ONLY veggie I know of that has more nutrients AFTER cooking is carrots.

Anyone know of any others?

Generally...the closer to "fresh picked" and eaten raw, the more nutrients.

Which is why we should squeeze our own oranges (an electric machine is great)and drink the juice very soon.

I am very happy that some are catching on as to how very, very important GOOD nutrition is when fighting diseases...and just to stay healthy.

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