robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
Can someone who is doing Buhner help me with doses, suppliers, and herbs to take for babs .... I am relapsing I think and even tough I have the book cannot seem to get it together enough to extract the info I need.
I have been on the core for 5 months ....... was doing ok to well until a few days ago.
Please help if you can .
robi
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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robi
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5547
posted
ALso, can i take artemisinin in the high dose of 500 mg 3 x a day for 3 days? DO i take anything else with this? I think this is Dr.K (seattle) way of doing art.
Wha about the resistance issues with art?
robi
-------------------- Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy' Posts: 2503 | From here | Registered: Apr 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Robi: I took Artemisinin at 1200 mg a day. 600 x 2 for three days. I definitely wouldn't do it without Buhner's recommended RED ROOT tincture. I take half of a dropper full, three times a day with me regular herbs. And was taking a FULL dropper full with the Artemisnin. I also took a full dropper full when I switched over to Artemisia annua.
I felt I got better results with the Artemisia annua. And I buy it in bulk from 1st Chinese Herbs in Washington. As a matter of fact I get almost all my herbs from them now. They are very resonable on their prices, only $40 for free shipping and Sarah is nice to deal with. You can call or order online.
They may have it in capsules also, you can ask Sarah. She is very helpful and will get you most answers IF she doesn't already know it.
minoucat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5175
posted
Robi, so sorry to hear you're feeling so lousy.
Buhner's babs protocol: Artemisinin caps 300-500 mg/day (100 mg 3x day for 30-40 days; presumably at the 500 mg level you'd take 2 caps 2x day and 1 cap 1x day)
Buhner says the whole herb can be "reliably used for malaria (and babs) if the dose is increased to 500mg" -- not sure if he means 500 mg at a dose, or total dose per day.
Both artemisinin and artemisia can cause GI upset.
Red Root tincture 1/2 to 1 1/2 tsp (20-90 drops) up to 4x day (tincture is 1:5 50% alcohol) Red root is for reducing inflammation in spleen and liver and clearing dead cellular tissue from lymph.
Here is Klinghardt's recommendation: "2 caps Artemisinin (100 mg caps, I presume) 2times/day. 3 weeks on, 1 week off. Always with 1⁄2 glass of grapefruit juice. 3 cycles. Watch manganese and iron levels! "
The hubby did the high dose artemisinin -- 1200 mg art in 3 doses, 3 days a week for 3 weeks. Massive headache. Didn't take red root with it, which may have been a problem. May be a good loading dose but not something I'd personally do long term (more than 3 weeks, or more than 3 days a week)
JimBob, how is it that red root helped with the artemisinin? And when you say the whole herb worked better for you, do you mean you tolerated it better or it had more effect on the babs?
Robi, also consider allergies, mold, and light change as a problem for this time of year. My doc also recommends cumanda, burbur, and chlorella for assisting detox. Have only used Chlorella so far.
Best of luck.
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Robi,
You would'nt mind answering a pm I sent you please!?
Thanks zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Thanks robi, I did see that you were'nt feeling well...
I should have said to read the PM whenever you felt better. I just wanted to get it off my unread pm list...
and yeah a reply was'nt necessary.
Try and get well....zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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I take 300 mg 3x/day of artemisinin, for 3 days every 2 weeks, from the Allergy Research Group. I get it from organicpharmacy.org, but I think I got it cheaper from somewhere else, maybe someone else can help you out with that. I can't find the invoice. I have no side effects from that dosage (I weigh 110 lbs.).
Maybe you could start at a dosage lower than 1500 mg/day and work your way up to a higher dosage based on how you feel.
I also drink boneset tea for babesia, which I think helps. I get that from a Chinese herbalist, luckily have one nearby.
I think if you take artemisinin for only 3 days every 2 weeks you deal with the resistance issue.
Hope you're feeling better, P
Posts: 449 | From Vermont | Registered: Nov 2004
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Not sure where the above Dr. K recommendation came from but his current documented info is:
3. Artemisinin has disappointed in our experience in the treatment of Babesia, unless given in very high doses: 1200-1500 mg/day given 3 days in a row, repeat after a 2 week break. This is the way the drug is used in China for treatment of Malaria. After the initial 2 courses a 2-3 day course should be given once/month
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dr. K is now using the salt/vitamin c protocol for babesia. There was recently a study done of 60 000 or so people that were treated for malaria in Africa using this protocol with very encouraging results.
Diana
Posts: 202 | From vancouver, canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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minoucat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5175
posted
Scott -- the K. protocol for babs was from his 11/2005 "Beyond Antibiotics" paper. It was the babs protocol we were put on last year, although most recently my doc suggested the high-dose, 3-day protocola that is ALSO recommended in the same paper but in a sort of footnoted update ( http://www.neuraltherapy.com/LymeALookBeyond6.pdf ). I know you've been to the more recent conferences with Dr. K so I'm sure your info is more accurate -- thanks for posting.
I'm interested that the Salt C protocol was found to be helpful for babs; that's very good news. But clearly treatment for malaria does not translate directly to treatment for babesia -- because, I think, babesia must have some long-lived non-erythrocyte form, more similar to the relapsing malaria that has the hypnozoite form, than the P. falciparum form that is the most standard malaria treatment model.
That same paper also recommends the herb Oxo for babs, mentions (approvingly) many of the herbs Buhner suggests, and also bee venom therapy and the KMT. It's well worth reading. FWIW, I use the KMT23 and I think that it is helpful -- it may be why I've recovered so well from babs.
-------------------- ********************* RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem! (Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
The original publication of "Lyme Disease - A look Beyond Antibiotics" dates back to January 2005. Dr. Klinghardt prepared that paper for the San Francisco Lyme Conference at which he was an invited speaker. He changed his basic protocol a bit later and the amended form was part of his handout for his January 06 seminar with a number of speakers, including Dr. H.
That is the wonderful part of Dr. K. When he finds something that works better, he flows with it. There is never a dull protocol. It evolves with us and the microbes and the environment.
He learns and admits that he does - with each patient. His approach changes with each patient. No two patients with the "Lyme Disease" label get the same treatment, because every one brings a different body to the table. Same for any of the chronic disease diagnoses.
Salt & C may work for this guy's Babesia; PC Noni may be the proper medicine for another "Babesia type sufferer". Often times several different meds and remedies together. PC Noni is used for Borrelia as well as for Babesia, if it so tests with ART as it often does.
He may be finding with ART testing a mutation of a microbe -that is no longer a true Borrelia; or a virus that has incorporated a piece of a strand of Borrelia DNA.
The treatment/medicine which takes the patient out of resonance with the microbe that he found with ART is an important indication as to what the patient really really has. For instance, if he finds that an antiviral medication such as acyclovir or coconut oil tests against a Borrelia test slide, he will know that the patient has a viral infection with borrowed Borrelia elements. He treats it as a viral illness, not a bacterial one.
Same for all organisms or toxins. There is no black or white in this medicine. That's one thing I have learned for certain. If a doctor hangs on to last year's protocol, he is sure to be left behind with still sick patients that will be doing another combo of antibiotics ten years later that still does not work. That seems to be what many people on this board seem to go through.
I know that Dr. K. uses Andographis for some Babesia-type infections. Wonder what that Babesia really looks like! Andrographis also covers some herpes viruses --- and the mumps.
Salt and C covers a wide spectrum of microoranisms. It's a great start up tool and a cleanup tool, later on and in between, for many different organisms. If the patient is of a make-up that he/she tolerates it as indicated by ART testing, it is used.
Wouldn't it be nice if more doctors were to use a form of energetic testing?
It is nice that many patients now learn the testing method themselves; and there will be several seminars coming up for patients, moms and dads to learn it to be able to help themselves. I learned it a few years ago and use it for my family. It's really rewarding for me to be able to test my six month old grandson and discover that the oatmeal is the culprit that stresses his little body that gives him a stuffy nose - even nicer when the doctor comes up with the same diagnosis. Baby is a lot happier!
I think Scott will agree with me - I don't understand why people call it voodoo with snake oil what we find to beneficial.
Whatever; we need to be flexible - because the world of microbes is changing as we are breathing right now. They are a lot smarter than we are and they will survive, leaving us in the dust, unless we change our attitude toward them and let them have the world they need to live alongside us. The Earth is not ours alone.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
This is N O T a Klinghardt recommended protocol:
"The hubby did the high dose artemisinin -- 1200 mg art in 3 doses, 3 days a week for 3 weeks. Massive headache. Didn't take red root with it, which may have been a problem. May be a good loading dose but not something I'd personally do long term (more than 3 weeks, or more than 3 days a week)"
Scott quoted the correct "basic" protocol (quoting Dr. K.) as follows:
"3. Artemisinin has disappointed in our experience in the treatment of Babesia, unless given in very high doses: 1200-1500 mg/day given 3 days in a row, repeat after a 2 week break. This is the way the drug is used in China for treatment of Malaria. After the initial 2 courses a 2-3 day course should be given once/month"
To avoid and minimize crises, all Dr. K. protocols are combined and followed with tapping, lymph drainages, colonics, mop-up protection (chlorella, etc.) for all the released neurotoxins, and suitable liver and kidney protection (Renelix, Liverlife, Smilax, KMT microcurrent, etc.)
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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