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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » biofilm magnesium furanones

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Author Topic: biofilm magnesium furanones
3carolyn
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I am trying to get my head around this one- my son is 4, autistic, magnesium deficient, and got Lyme 4 months ago...

I am reading about biofilm as I have read that magnesium feeds the biofilm for Lyme-

What I understand so far is that Lyme uses mag for biofilm. That kids with chronic antibiotic resistant ear infections all test positive for biofilm, so docs won't treat them with abx anymore- as the bacteria lives on in the film unaffected by abx.

Okay- we take Balouke for fibrin- as bad things hide in fibrin. And it works. Enzyme comes from earthworms, eats fibrin, bad things are released and can be dealt with.

Similar with bioflm right? What eats biofilm? I found this article and it mentions something called- furanones. Anyone know anything about this?

"Because biofilms can do so much damage and are so hard to kill, it would seem logical that being able to prevent biofilms from forming would be a valuable trick. As it turns out, researchers are pursuing this very tactic as a way of controlling biofilms by focusing on the chemical signals that trigger their formation.

Scientists have already discovered several examples in nature where biofilm production is suppressed. One type of seaweed--a marine red alga called Delisea pulchra--that grows in Australia's famous Botany Bay is almost completely resistant to the surface fouling of biofilms, even those that cover nearly ever other exposed surface in marine systems.

Australian scientists Staffan Kjelleberg and Peter Steinberg of the University of New South Wales' Centre for Marine Biofouling and Bio-Innovation (CMBB) have discovered that the explanation for this strange phenomenon is that the seaweed produces a novel class of chemical compounds called furanones. Over 40 of them have thus far been isolated. These natural products have a structure that is similar to the chemical signals used by bacteria to trigger quorum sensing. Chemical signals often work like a lock and key, fitting into specific locations on an organism's surface to trigger certain responses. So far, based on experimental evidence, it looks like the furanones fit into the "keyholes" needed for quorum sensing, thus blocking the biofilm formation response. In a sense, the bacteria become "deafened" to the chemical call for biofilm formation so they remain free-living and therefore much more vulnerable to antibiotic attack. Further research has shown that the furanones may also block bacteria from producing some of the products that cause illness. "

Posts: 16 | From philadelphia | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Marnie
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Do you want my biofilm files?

When you discover the facts about elastase, just ask and I will be happy to provide those files too.

We know...so far...that Bb doesn't like alcohol (alters its protein coat), KCL, elastase, calprotectin (in neutrophils, binds zinc), superoxide free radical, nitric oxide, iron...

Basically it does NOT want a lot of oxygen available. It uses SUGAR to make it's ATP...far less.

Bb wants/needs choline.

At the outset of lyme, the body releases Mg from muscle stores (same % as the Romanian doctors found...amazingly). So by the time of the rash, our own body is showing us what was needed to fight.

We didn't have enough to "spare" fast enough, IMO...depending on the pathogen load and and friends Bb happened to bring along.

To begin to understand the functions of Mg, go here (pay close attention to the immune section):

http://www.mdschoice.com/elements/elements/major_minerals/magnesium.htm

It would also be a good idea to find Mg's role in blood clotting...re: fibrin.

While Bb does invade the lining of our blood vessels, it is heading for about 4 layers down.

Bb uses Mn, not Mg! It also uses zinc. Bb is perfectly content to go intracellular, inside the mitochondria (powerhouses) and stimulating Na transport to carry choline into the cells.

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bpeck
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Understanding bacteriology can take a life time.

ALot of bacteria create a biofilm around them selves as protection - and they use the same butrrients to do that as we do to survive.

Depriving your self of some nutrient - just becuase the bugs use it too - isn't going to stop the bug from using magnesium- they'll just steal it from your tissues..

ANd once a biofilm is produced - or variant is formed- then the Doc is right- certain abx won't touch it.

So- if your child has autism (or not), I'm sure you know that when it comes to magnesium blood levels do not correlate with tissue level.. so you have to make sure (s)he's ingesting it everyday.

I'm not sure what question you're asking.. but you are on your way to understanding why some pathogens are so hard to kill. They've developed survival mechanisms that are very very efficient.

Barb

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3carolyn
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Okay I have a lot to read up on- thank you so much. And Marnie, I'd love your biofilm files...

Hopefully this will start making some sense.

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pq
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aspirin?

years ago, oen member said aspirin did something to biofilms,but, best i recall, the post wasn't made with borrelia specifically in mind. not sure

biofilm formation as is an aspect of borrelia i haven't explored.

can anyone send me some files on this, but only as they relate, either to borrelia, other kinds of spirochetes, and other tbds?

.

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treepatrol
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up

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

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micul
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quote:
"Depriving your self of some nutrient - just becuase the bugs use it too - isn't going to stop the bug from using magnesium- they'll just steal it from your tissues.."
It will as long as you are taking meds to attack the bacteria. I see it time and time again on this site where large mag supplementation is encouraged that all these people are trapped in an endless cycle of on again, off again specific protocols for Bart and Babs.

I've done the high mag, and it doesn't work.....it just caused the bacteria to become resistant very quicly, as well as reducing the effects of the meds. I am living proof that no mag is best as Dr F proclaims.

Mag wiil stop the Quinalones from working properly, and absolutely none of the manufacturers will recommend that you take mag supps to avoid tendon problems from happening. Now don't you think that they would do this if there were any proof that mag will protect tendons? Of course they would.

IMO, the reason that mag appears to help some people to avoid tendon problems while on Quins is because it is greatly reducing the effects of the med.....that's all, and you will see these people relapse time and time again.

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You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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