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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » buhner vs zhang?

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Author Topic: buhner vs zhang?
runcyclexcski
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My lyme is probably ~5 y.o. and I also have Bartonella. Lyme-wise I am mostly bothered with floaters, irritability, and memory issues.

I am tempted to start on Buhner b/c there is no garlic smell involved. But could B be less effective than Z? Also, I got a list of ~50 herbs that are all a part of Z, and I have no clue where to start. B I could easily grasp (core protocol plus a couple of additinoal stuff). Also, how do B and Z compare price-wise?

i have lyme and asthma (could they be related?) and the lyme has recently become worse b/c I had to go through an systemic steroid course (hey, goota breathe). For lyme I currently take doxy.

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JimBoB
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From MY understanding Zhang is much more expensive than Buhner. And it stands to reason; you are buying HIS speciality mixes of herbs. Buhner sell NO herbs. He only recommends what he has researched to work.

I use Buhner's protocols. I also buy my herbs in bulk, mostly from 1stChineseHerbs and encapsulate them myself with capsules I buy from WonderLabs in Tennesee. They have the best prices on empty capsules that I have found. They also sell the little machines to do the job.

I also have asthma, but have had it for many years before contracting Lyme. I have had Lyme for a little over 7 years, and Asthma for about 19 years. There are many herbs in Buhners Healing Lyme book that help with Asthma. I have not used my inhaler more than twice since I started the herbs, which was 14 months ago.

Also, the Sali Pipe from England is wonderful for asthma and bronchitis. Helps more than anything.

I am thinking of throwing my inhaler away.

I had to quit doxy after 24 days, a year ago, as it was too hard on my stomach.

Jim.
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klutzo
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The Zhang program I was on well over 3 years ago came with explicit instructions of which herbs to take and when to add them in. There were about 6 items on the Protocol.

When I ordered and told them it was for Lyme, they sent the instruction sheet with the order. They may do it very differently now, I do not know. I had to call a place in California to order the products, and I believe Zhang's office is in NYC. It's been so long ago it's hard to remember.

It cost me $504 per month for six months. That's a lot of moolah. It did nothing except make me smell awful. It was another six months before I could stand to cook with garlic again.

I had to discontinue one of the Zhang herbs (Circulation P) due to it's causing a rise in blood pressure, and mine is already too high. I also developed an allergy to Cordyceps during the tx.

I am now receiving acupuncture for my heart problems due to Lyme, and my TCM doc forbade me to use garlic, because it is a hot herb, and she says my heart problems are partly due to a heat excess in my heart.

I also had to stop doing Buhner due to Andrographis raising my blood pressure too high and some of the other herbs having zero effect. For many Lymies, higher blood pressure is a good thing, but not for me. I can take Andro for about 3 days, but then I have to take a break to prevent BP rise.

I used the Cowden protocol instead, because it has research behind it, and it sure did made me herx, but I recently stopped that too because I'd been on it so long, endured so much herxing misery, and not improved.

I am not anti-herb. Quite the contrary. I am allergic to all Lyme killing ABX, so I thank God for herbs, so I at least have something I can try. I am just reporting my experiences which seem to be less successful than many others. I hope you will be one of the successful ones.

Klutzo

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Carol in PA
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Zhang has a book out.

Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine (Paperback)
by Dr. QingCai Zhang, Yale Zhang
Price: $19.95
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967721318/

I found his products at HepaPro and at Life Science Pharmacy.

Carol

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Parisa
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Have you read any of Dr. Firshein's books regarding asthma? He's a doctor with asthma who almost died from it.

He set out to find a better way to control his asthma. He now has his asthma under control and he's able to get his patients way down on the meds they have to take.

I believe his asthma book is called "Reversing Asthma."

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JimBoB
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Sounds interesting Parisa, but I have NOT read it.

I didn't know they COULD REVERSE asthma. Do you know HOW?

I got my asthma in the late 80's when I was cleaning up the basement on the old house we bought. I was sweeping the concrete that had been covered with about 5 or 6 inches of sand and cat poop, etc..

The next morning I woke up with a sore throat and chest, and it got worse and worse. My local duck couldn't figure it out, so sent me to a specialist and he diagnosed it as asthma.

I used several inhalers, but was allergic to most of them.

Now it has been several months since I last used mine. Back then I was using two of them, every 4 to 6 hours, minimum.

Jim [Cool]

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Parisa
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I have not read his asthma book as I do not have asthma. In Neutraceutical Revolution discusses asthma, his story and treatments but not as thoroughly as he does in his other book. I picked this book up at the library. It's worth looking into.
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runcyclexcski
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I appreciate the responses.

I wonder why one has to incapsuate the herbs... isn't it easier just to grind them and swallow the powder directly? Or make tea?

WRT asthma books - a search for "asthma" on amazon yields thousands of "reverse asthma" type of books. I would need a systematic approach, preferetnially backed up with some scientific work before I start on any of them. That is, I need an asthma analog of Bruhner's book on Lyme.

I have tried ASHMI for asthma (3 Chinese herbs, backed up by a clinical study, supposed to be as good as prednisone - asthmatics' favorite evil drug - w/o side effects) and it did not do anything. Asthma differs a lot in different people. But it may work for some, the herbs were dirt cheap.

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hardynaka
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Some make tea, but not every active substance pass through water. And the amount is more complicated to measure.

And some herbs are not possible to be ingested so, as they're very very bitter, like andro.

It's also easier to take capsules if you are not homebound and need to take the herbs while you're outside.

Grinding herbs like sarsaparilla, knotweed and astragalus are impossible tasks. No home coffee grinder can do this job (these are bark, not leaves!!!). I bought a stone mortar and pestle to try: nearly impossible, takes hours to get a few pills.

You have to buy them in powder already.


SElma

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JimBoB
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I almost agree 100% with Selma. However, I am of the opinion that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE.

THAT being said, it can be difficult enough, and gross enough to our senses that we would NOT do it for very long. At least NOT most of us.

Encapsulation for herbs is the same as for encapsulation of abx.

Like Selma said, easier to measure, our stomachs can't taste. Unless YOUR taste buds are just about dead, it is far, far, too bitter to taste SOME herbs, and others BURN our mouths terribly.

I had a friend who died of Hodgkin's Disease. Before he died, he once told me: "IF what I am eating TASTES GOOD it is probably NOT GOOD FOR ME".

We might translate that to herbs, also.

Though there are exceptions to just about any rule, this is something to keep in mind.

Jim
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runcyclexcski
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OK, it all makes sense now. I certanly don't see myself swallowing twigs and bark. Thank you all, especially JimBoB.

P.S. To JimBob: Since you encapsulate herbs yourself and know the associated costs, what do you think about the suppliers of herb capsules: do we get ripped badly? Ever thought about opening your own lyme herb shop? [Smile]

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MariaA
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My brother had terrible asthma as a child, and he was pretty much cured of it through a course of Chinese herbs. As an adult he's even had a cat for a while with few asthma/allergen effects other than having to clean the house more often.

We lived in the Soviet Union at the time (early 70's) and there weren't any Western alternatives available because the healthcare system was in shambles (for instance they had NO IDEA that cats set off asthma, and we had one when he was having his near-fatal attacks of asthma).

We were really lucky that they'd recently allowed herbalists to practice and we had a lot of highly educated Chinese professionals who'd immigrated into the Soviet Union due to the Chinese-Soviet political connections in the 50's and 60's.


By the way this experience, and others like it, is why I"m so interested in herbal medicine.
Maria

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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Dave6002
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quote:
isn't it easier just to grind them and swallow the powder directly?
I don't encapsulate herb powders, but take them directly with water as described in this thread saving time and money, more importantly could be more potent:


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=051168#000000

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MariaA
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dave,

I really think you're applying your garlic experience to the other herbs, and it just doesn't work that way. People have been taking herbs as capsules for 100 years for many different conditions successfully.

There are very specific scientific reasons why the garlic needs to be prepared a certain way (well-described in the 'garlic- preparations and activities' post that someone made), eaten after meals, etc.

Those same reasons don't exist for the other herbs we're describing. Andrographis in particular is SO extremely bitter that it'd be hard for many people to do what you're advocating. If those patients are also on any antibiotic that causes nausea (doxycyclene) it'd be even harder to deal with bitter paste or tea rather than swallowing a pill.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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Wallace
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I take my powder mixed with water as well and suspect Dave may be right. A question for Buhner?

Wallace

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5dana8
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I don't have anything more to add about the herbs but someone mentioned the salt pipe.
Here a few links if you are intested:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=039763

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=039678

--------------------
5dana8

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runcyclexcski
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WRT complimentary asthma treatments, I've got PDFs of the following scientific reviews of methods that have gone through clinical trials. Email my privately ([email protected]_this.yahoo.com) if you are interested.

Huntley A, Ernst E. Herbal medicines for asthma: a systematic review. Thorax. 2000;55(11):925-929.

Martin J, Donaldson A N, Villarroel R, Parmar M K, Ernst E, Higginson I J. Efficacy of acupuncture in asthma: systematic review and meta-analysis of published data from 11 randomised controlled trials. European Respiratory Journal. 2002;20(4):846-852.

Ernst E. Breathing techniques - adjunctive treatment modalities for asthma: a systematic review. European Respiratory Journal. 2000;15(5):969-972. Links

Huntley A, White A R, Ernst E. Relaxation therapies for asthma: a systematic review. Thorax. 2002;57(2):127-131. Links

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Dave6002
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quote:
Andrographis in particular is SO extremely bitter that it'd be hard for many people to do what you're advocating. If those patients are also on any antibiotic that causes nausea (doxycyclene) it'd be even harder to deal with bitter paste or tea rather than swallowing a pill.
Maria,

I use a lot of water with herb powder so that the bitter taste become quite tolerable.

Another benefit of using large volume of water is that the stomach acid can be diluted, so acid-sensitive effective compounds can be protected.

The third benefit is the absorption of effective compounds could be increased with a lot of water.

Even with capsules, a lot of water would be beneficial.

However, I am still experimenting this method, cannot conclude it's better than capsule.


Dave

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JimBoB
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I do NOT think it is better with a lot of water. MOST herbs that I am familiar with do NOT break down in water. Diluting the stomach acids only makes it worse for getting the most out of some of the herbs. Cat's Claw is one in particular that is reported on.

If anything, I would probably try it with alcohol. That seems to leech out the good stuff from the herbs.

THAT is why MOST tinctures are recommended to be made with alcohol. MUCH more potent than say teas, or using viniger, or glycerines.

ALSO, if you drink ENOUGH alcohol, you just MIGHT be able to stand the bitterness of Andrographis. [dizzy]

UGH!!! I couldn't even stand the taste of andro in TABLET FORM, for five bottles. I would NEVER want to go back to tasting that. [rant]

BUT some people can do just about anything. Most cannot though. Choose for yourself WHAT you can stand and can't stand.

Jim [Cool]

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JimBoB
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quote:
Originally posted by Wallace:
I take my powder mixed with water as well and suspect Dave may be right. A question for Buhner?

Wallace

BUHNER has already addressed this to some extent in his Healing Lyme book.

He states that the Andrographis is extrememly bitter and you would probably NOT want to take it in tablet form, even though it is much cheaper that way.

I totally agree with him from MY experience. ALSO, HOW can you accurately measure your dose each and every time, IF you do not have a well packed same size capsule each time?

Jim [Cool]

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MariaA
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being religious about the dosages probalby doesn't matter all that much- if you take an herb as a tea you rarely get a standardized dosage every time, but they still work. Now, with something like antibiotics, dosage is extremely important because of potential for serious side effects, but for the particular herbs Buhner describes for this particular disease, getting an identical maximum dosage every time is less important than simply taking the herbs daily for a year (or whatever long period of time).

I think, as seriously ill Lyme patients, anything that makes treatment easier on you is better than anything that makes it a hassle. Our lives are hard enough as is. This stuff works even when you can't get the EXACT dosage or use it under optimum conditions.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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hardynaka
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I partially agree with Maria.

But I also agree that it does seem necessary that cats claw gets some acids to be activated! Too much water wouldn't be a good idea then...

I guess one shall ingest the herbs the way one feels better. If this way doesn't give you good results, you can still change and compare.

But certainly, many tinctures are not a good starting point, in my own experience. But if you can't stand herbs/ capsules, it is still better to take tinctures than nothing! [Wink]

I also agree with Maria saying exact dosage is not that problematic (if you dont' take too much, but too little). Too much can be problematic for many people, specially killing herbs!!

And also timing, minimum 3 times a day is a must for the most sick of us. While my lyme, babesia were flaring, I needed each of the intake of herbs in the right time, so that I could continue my day.

When symptoms go down or disappear, then you can skip one or other dose, or take it at any time you feel is good, like it happened to me the last months.

But when I was very sick, that was not the way at all. I needed quite some discipline, or my day was a mess.

I guess Maria hit the worst of her critters load with abx, so she probably didn't have that experience I had (I killed my lyme only with herbs). I'm still fighting though, but it's much lighter now, no comparison to before!

Selma

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