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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » ALA and NAC..feels like herx-metal taste in mouth

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Author Topic: ALA and NAC..feels like herx-metal taste in mouth
Hope4Better
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i recently began taking Alpha Lipoic Acid and NAC for chelation and heavy metals ..

ive been taking it for 2-3 days now and having noticed that ive been feeling really bad

i already take Brunhers core protocol:

Andrographis 2X a day
Resveratrol 2- 2X a day
Sarsparilla 2 @ nite

and added the NAC and ALA..at recommeded dosages.

i have a funny metal taste in my mouth as well as fatigue, foggy brain, irritability..and sore

throat and cough( coughed up what looked to be mucus and blood this morning..just a little)

should i stop taking this?? whats going on?? any experiences with these 2 supps in combo with core protocol??

i dont want to get worse.

--------------------
If Your Going Through Hell, Keep Going...

Posts: 99 | From Shepherdstown, WV | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
northstar
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Hi,

Oooh, blood does not sound good; that is always a sign to go to doctor.

NAC seems to have several purposes: antioxidant, chelator, and also something that encourages or loosens phlegm in lungs. I think this is a sometimes used as a supplement for smoking lung issues.

Gigi and others have always said that mop up agents are necessary when chelating. She has recommended chlorella, and a few others. This is to prevent metals, once loosened, from being redeposited.

I took the lipoic/NAC combo a few years ago, and did not notice anything. But my "discharge system" was really active, thanks to zithro.

Then I tried some type of zapper, under guidance of ND, to target metals, and drunkenness/slurred speech was immediate, and discontinued after the session. I did no more with metals until recently.

My new ND said I needed NAC for liver. So after 7 days, I was in total pain in all muscles and joints. Quit it.

I consult with another ND, who gave me Tyler's Mercury Detox, which has the NAC, but with other stuff. I also took chlorella within this schedule. No problem at all, so my reaction could be the brand, the additional ingredients, and/or the chlorella.

If you have blood, I would stop for now and call your doctor.

I would recommend trying to find a ND if you can, for guidance in these supplements. Try to be careful about interactions.

Northstar

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Parisa
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Check out www.cpnhelp.org. It is a website dedicated to c. pneumonia and its treatment. NAC and antibiotics is a core part of their protocol. Many people complain of herxes (especially of the respiratory tract) in the beginning with NAC. How much NAC are you taking? Maybe you should back down to one pill a day or alternate days.
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Jill E.
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I agree to always alert your doctor if you are coughing up blood.

What is your dosage of NAC and ALA?

At high doses, it may cause mobilization of metals, especially mercury, from the tissues into the spinal column and brain.

When I became symptomatic with Lyme, but didn't know what it was, I had terrible neuropathy (still do). So I self-medicated with NAC and ALA because it's used for neuropathy.

An astute nutritionist I was seeing, who has lots of experience with metals chelation, had me stop those supplements immediately. He showed me an article by the VP of Doctor's Data Lab (the lab that does DMSA challenges) that high-levels such as 800 mg/day of NAC can put metals into the brain.

I've since heard agreement and disagreement with this theory, but I stopped those supplements until I can be supervised by a knowledgeable practitioner regarding metals.

At low doses, I don't think there is that same risk. And they are important antioxidants.

But I would talk to your practitioners about the reaction you are having.

Jill

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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Marnie
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"Blood cells contain hemoglobin which carries oxygen. When blood breaks down,

iron is released and causes a metallic taste in mouth."

http://www.atlantadentist.com/metallic_taste_in_mouth.html

As well as other causes. Go to the link.

ALA reduces biotin...which is WHY the product Juvenon contains this also.

A brilliant chemist, Bruce Ames, developed this product to "heal the mitochondria".

Research "biotin inflammation".

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northstar
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ALA reduces biotin...which is WHY the product Juvenon contains this also.

Thank you Marnie for the reminder ! I found a bottle in the back of the cupboard, and could not remember why it was there !

N/

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pq
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according to the abstract below, consider if cysteine may be causing some bleeding.

Title: Hemolytic activity of Borrelia burgdorferi.
Authors: Williams LR, Austin FE
Source: Infect Immun 1992 Aug;60(8):3224-30
Organization: Department of Microbiology and Immunology School of Medicine University of Louisville Kentucky 40292.

Abstract:
Zones of beta-hemolysis occurred around colonies of Borrelia burgdorferi grown on Barbour-Stoenner-Kelly medium containing agarose and horse blood. Blood plates were inoculated with either the infective strain Sh-2-82 or noninfective strain B-31 in an overlay and incubated in a candle jar. Both strains of B. burgdorferi displayed beta-hemolysis after 1 to 2 weeks of incubation. The hemolytic activity diffused out from the borrelial colonies, eventually resulting in lysis of the entire blood plate. Hemolysis was most pronounced with horse blood and was less intense with bovine, sheep, and rabbit blood. Hemolysis was enhanced by hot-cold incubation, which is typical of phospholipase-like activities in other bacteria. Further characterization of the borrelial hemolysin by using a spectrophotometric assay revealed its presence in the supernatant fluids of stationary-phase cultures. Detection of the borrelial hemolytic activity was dependent on activation of the hemolysin by the reducing agent cysteine . This study provides the first evidence of hemolytic activity associated with B. burgdorferi.
Keywords:
Animal, Borrelia burgdorferi, PY, Cysteine, PD, Hemolysins, BI, Hemolysis, Horses, Human, Lyme Disease, BL, Support, Non-U.S. Gov't, Temperature, Medline File

Language: German

Unique ID: 92347995

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Jim K
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A "herx" response to NAC is quite likely an indicator that you have Chlamydia pneumoniae (Cpn) as a co-infection. NAC has no antibacterial effect except to the Elementary Body (EB) form of Cpn, where it destroys the cysteine bonds on the EB cell wall and makes the EB susceptible to the immune system. People with Cpn infection who take NAC often get the "NAC flu" ie sniffles, cough, aches, etc.

Just like borrelia, Cpn is a multi-stage organism, and so you have to take different agents all at the same time to get all the different forms of it or it just comes back. NAC is used as one of these agents. It also has some other great properties (antioxidant, livver support, etc.).

As far as we know, NAC does not have any antibacterial effects against any other bacterium (cysteine cell wall bonds being rather unique to Cpn EB's) and so reactions to it are quite suggestive of Cpn infection. See www.cpnhelp.org for more.

--------------------
Chlamydia pneumoniae seropositive, on Combined Antibiotic Protocol (CAP)for CFS/FM since 11/04

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Hope4Better
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ok this morning i woke up with the same phlegm/mucus..

this time i caught it before it went down the sink..

the mucus is VERY THICK AND YELLOW..and the red/dark thing is hard...maybe hardened blood or a piece of my lung.......YIKES...im scared..

Ive only ever had this in the last 2 days and i didnt even take the ALA or NAC last nite..

i still have the metallic taste in my mouth, it seems to be coming from the phlgem....i notcied to

that i have white bumps(a couple)on my tonsils..and then in the very back of my throat i have other red looking bumps..behind the tonsils..

my throat is very sore..i get nauseas just thinking about the hard red thing and the yellow muscus..

is this some kinda infection??..cpn?
all this started after taking the ALA and NAC in recommended dosages and only 2 days in a row..i have now stopped it..

any more input??

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If Your Going Through Hell, Keep Going...

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northstar
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I would call your md pronto.

And ask if you can bring in a sputum sample with the things you are noting. They may want it in a sterile container, so I do not know how this would be handled, or even if you can produce it "on demand".

Northstar

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ChrisBtheLymie
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quote:
Originally posted by Parisa:
Check out www.cpnhelp.org. It is a website dedicated to c. pneumonia and its treatment. NAC and antibiotics is a core part of their protocol. Many people complain of herxes (especially of the respiratory tract) in the beginning with NAC. How much NAC are you taking? Maybe you should back down to one pill a day or alternate days.

I was just about to say the same thing.
NAC is very good at killing CPn, and the die off is often flu-like symptoms with cough, mucous, etc, etc.
They call it NAC flu.

My LLMD has just put me on NAC because he says it is a significant coinfection of Borrelia.

P.S) I was told thick mucous is a sign of a CPn die-off from the NAC.
Look at the CPNHelp website listed above. It does sound like you could have CPn, but best to see a doc.

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johnnyb
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Definitely see a doc about the blood.

Cool site on cpn though. Never knew it was so hard to get out of your system (like lyme)!

What about folks who can't tolerate abx very well? I wonder if there are any options?

- JB

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ChrisBtheLymie
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quote:
Originally posted by johnnyb:
Definitely see a doc about the blood.

Cool site on cpn though. Never knew it was so hard to get out of your system (like lyme)!

What about folks who can't tolerate abx very well? I wonder if there are any options?

- JB

Yes it is very interesting and amazing how similar it is to Lyme.
They also use very similar treatments, including Metro/Tini to kill other forms, Azithromycin, Doxy, etc, etc.

Like I said above, my LLMD thinks most of his patients have CPn, so I am taking NAC just incase.

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luvs2ride
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I recently started taking NAC along with undenatured whey protein to help my body manufacture glutathione.

I didn't know anything about the CPN reaction. Thank goodness I have had no such reaction to the NAC so I guess I don't have C-Pneumonia.

Thanks for the diagnosis guys.

This is a great board!

Luvs

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Marnie
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pq...maybe the release of acetaldehyde - hemolysis too.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11113633&dopt=Abstract


Looks like too much acetaldehyde and not enough of the enzyme to break it down i.e., acetaldehyde dehydrogenase.

? Hangover Helper (is a supplement)

Acetaldehyde comes from the breakdown of ethanol. It is bad, VERY BAD.

Asthma, cancer, liver disease...the list goes on.

Acetaldehyde is "called aldehyde, ethaldehyde".

P.S.

"Cytosolic aldehyde dehydrogenase that is activated by Mg2+ and utilizes NADP+ as the preferred coenzyme; required for the conversion of acetaldehyde to acetate; constitutively expressed.."
http://www.ihop-net.org/UniPub/iHOP/bng/36075.html

"Acetaldehyde dehydrogenase is ***activated by phosphate***

and inhibited by fatty acyl-CoA derivatives"

Hum...as Mg pyrophosphate? along with B6 to carry it INTO the cells?

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pq
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Marnie

i don't know if sx due to acetaldyde. theoretically, as nac may get metabolized to cysteine, the acetyl group coming off the nac might be converted to acetaldehyde.

in turn, the acetaldehyde causing symptoms? (rhet. quest.) if true, given the dose of nac,the contribution to sx. would seem neglible.

as other members pointed out, it seems more like combined effect of ala and nac, and c. pneumoniae herx.


if nac is getting metabolized to cysteine, the latter is causing hemolysis(rbc destruction) which if true, then, alone,this would manifest as a metallic taste in the mouth, as you mentioned.


sarsaparilla likely a significant contributor to sx. due to steroidal properties of its substituents? rank armchair speculation here.

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Marnie
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Cysteine works best when taken with

*selenium* and vitamin E.

It needs B6, B12 and folate to be made and is likely low in people with RA, hardening of the arteries (LDL is oxidized), and cancer.

It is capable of inactivating insulin!!!...according to my nutrition book.

Bb is PFK dependent. This is the enzyme that triggers glycolysis. It is ACTIVATED by insulin.

So, diabetics...heads up.

That means...glucose levels would rise which might trigger TNF alpha to counter since insulin can't (being inactivated by Cysteine)?


"Tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) is an important mediator of insulin resistance in obesity and diabetes through its ability to

decrease the tyrosine kinase activity

of the insulin receptor (IR). "

To counter Bb's die-off herx (Bb looks to need tyrosine)...do we need to "up" SOD and vitamin C and lactoferrin...to bind to the "excess" (respective) Mn, Zn, and Fe that may be released upon destruction triggering "acidic" TNF alpha?

Geeze...complex!

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