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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » High dose Cats Claw?

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Author Topic: High dose Cats Claw?
Wallace
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I have just started trying this. I am up to 12g daily and intend to go higher. Buhner only recommends 8 g. Any thoughts?

wallace

Up to 20 g is mentioned below.


Exerpted from

A "New" World Class Herb for A.K. Practice:
Uncaria tomentosa - a.k.a. Una de Gato (UDG)


By Brent W. Davis, D.C.
Collected Papers of the International College of Applied Kinesiology - Summer 1992.


"I took six weeks to attend the International Congress on Traditional Medicines in Peru, and to do long awaited herbal research in Brazil. Many of the presenters at the congress on traditional medicines were holistic medical physicians who had used herbs in clinical practice for years. UDG was discussed as one of about a dozen herbs which are used consistently to cure cancer and other serious disorders. Since 1988 I have been clinically evaluating many of the great South American herbs mentioned at the congress (and from other avenues as well) in terms of their applications in general practice - not for their oncolytic properties. In some profoundly important areas, Uncaria tomentosa stands out above many others."
"UDG was brought to the attention of European practitioners in the early 1980's. A few years before, the modern rediscovery of Una de Gato took place. Apparently in the early 70's an Austrian journalist traveling in Peru happened upon the herb which he gave to an ailing relative who took it and subsequently was cured of cancer. The journalist then invested a great deal of time and effort researching Uncaria tomentosa, and he came to the conclusion that the central woody portion of the plant is the useful part. He developed this opinion on the basis of chemical analyses and clinical evaluation done in Germany and Austria which showed that a very active alkaloid is in the highest concentration in that part of the plant. He and other collaborators filed for international patents on this "active ingredient" which may appear in the marketplace in the near future."

"Pharmacology: The first published chemical analysis of Uncaria tomentosa appeared in 1974(1) . Two primary alkaloids were chromatographically identifies as Rynchophyllin and Isorynchophyllin, as well as 5 secondary alkaloids. In 1985, Dr. B. Kreutzkamp and co-workers in Germany undertook more extensive analysis of UDG and came up with a classification of 6 alkaloids, the most immunologically active one being Isopteropodin(2). It has been reported in the literature that several color variations of fresh Uncaria tomentosa wood correspond with different concentrations of alkaloids, the darker colored wood being the richest in Isopteropodin.

Different of the alkaloids have been experimentally shown to be:

1. Immunostimulating by way of enhancing phagocytosis:
2. Ganglion-blocking with an enhancing effect on parasympathetic tone:
3. Inhibitory to striated muscle contraction;
4. Hypotensive, uterostimulant and antipyretic;
5. Diuretic."

"European Application of UDG Therapy
In a presentation to heilpraktikers in Europe, German doctor of medicine, Iwan Diehl, summarized well the therapeutic usage of the wood of UDG by German and Austrian physicians:
Effectiveness: Because of the mode of action of Uncaria extract, side-effects do not appear if the recommended dose is taken. In association with individuals who have frequently used laxatives, there may be temporary disorders of intestinal peristalsis, which disappear spontaneously after a few days. For the alkaloids of Uncaria extract, the following effects have been proven:

Stimulation of the non-specific immune system with activation of macrophages and granulocytes to eliminate non-physiological substances;

Enhancement of the sensitivity and reactivity of the immune system to seize and to eliminate very weak antigens;

Inhibition of inflammation by a repairing incorporation of lipids into the lipid matrix of damaged cell membranes;

Selective inhibition of growth of malignant cells by simultaneous improvement of erythrocyte and macrophage function;

Enhancement of the growth inhibitory effect of (pharmaceutical) cytostatics by an intact immune system;

Selective growth inhibition of virustransformed cells.

Indications: A positive influence has been observed on the following disorders:
- Dermatological disorders
- Allergic disorders
- Rheumatic disorders
- Chronic inflammation
- Viral diseases (herpes zoster)
- Malignant diseases (cytostasis and radiotherapy are more efficient under a concomitant therapy with Uncaria)

Uncaria is contraindicated for transplant carriers, because of a possible graft rejection. During pregnancy, Uncaria should not be used. In cases of treatment with H2-antagonists (e.g. anti-ulcer medication), a potentiation of the H2-antagonist might be expected."
"In my experience on approximately 150 patients during the last four years (who have received adjunctive monotherapy with UDG), I have seen Uncaria tomentosa break through severe intestinal derangements that no other available products can touch, including the strong & very useful undecylenic acid."
"Administration

UDG wood is administered as a tea, or in tablets, in the amount of 3 to 25 grams per day, or that equivalent if a concentrate is used. Sensitive individuals may require less than 3 g."
"I generally do not use over 5 grams per day - more commonly 3 grams/day. One phase of treatment normally lasts 10-14 days. Then other formulations can be used, cycling back to UDG in tough cases in perhaps 7-10 days. Individuals who treat advanced stages of pathology might routinely use between 10-20 grams per day for several weeks at a time."

"Care with UDG
Possible contraindication. Peruvian and European practitioners say there are no side-effects from UDG use. In my experience, that is not entirely true. What I find interesting is that the appearance of what seems to be an undesirable side-effect, is generally an indication that UDG is working well. The undesirable side-effect is diarrhea. In the patients who have benefited most from UDG wood, the herb tends to progressively alter bowel consistency from hard or normal to loose. It's kind of like the ascorbic acid advocates "take it `til it runs and then back off" phenomenon. In rare cases UDG causes what appears to be full blown dysentery. I am hypothesizing that in the latter, actual encystment of some other type of sequestration of parasites has occurred in the patient's past, and that UDG breaks open the encystment, and that is why the previously intractable problem finally moves toward resolution."

"After a positive pre-administration clinical screening which shows compatibility with Uncaria tomentosa, there is no substitute for trial. As you are learning about UDG, try monitoring its effects as a monotherapy for 7 to 14 days on several well chosen cases. It can be impressive."


Raintree Nutrition Products

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clairenotes
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Hello Wallace,

I have only tried samento, but it was difficult to tolerate for some reason. Samento is cat's claw but toa free(?).

So I am not sure what to say except the obvious... if you feel you are benefitting from higher doses, why not?

So many of us seem to be altering our treatment plans quite frequently to fit our needs. This is just not a cookie cutter illness.

Claire

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Dave6002
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Hi, Wallace,

I found that increasing the time of herbs in water could greatly increase the bio-availability of herbs.

Dave

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Areneli
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As far as I understand toa free is a product obtained from some genetic mutatation of Cats Claw that doesn't contain some chemical components and therefore by opinion of the producers works better.

There was a thread on Lymenet in the past about which cats claw was better. Experience of participants didn't quite confirmed superiority of toa free. In fact there were a few guys who responded better to the regular cats claw.

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clairenotes
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Thanks, Areneli. I was never clear on what the exact difference was between Samento and Cat's Claw. I noticed, too, that people here generally seem to favor Cat's Claw over Samento.

Claire

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JimBoB
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SAMENTO is just ANOTHER NAME for Cat's Claw. A company who has extracted/changed the Cat's Claw is calling THEIR product Samento TRYING to differentiate it from Cat's Claw. BUT you CAN call WHOLE HERB Cat's Claw Samento and STILL be correct.

BUT probably will confuse others not in the know which is which.

I would NOT go beyond BUHNER'S recommendations. HE is NOT a dummy. HE has spent YEARS studying this stuff. HE is giving us a regimen to go by that will OVERALL be the best in treating Lyme Disease.

It is MORE important to do HIS total Protocol than a whole bunch of just ONE herb. They all work hand in hand, and IF we introduce some foreign one to HIS protocols, we also run the risk of hurting the effects of HIS protocol.

There is nothing you need that is not in his book, Healing Lyme. You NEED to FAITHFULL STICK to it.

THEN and ONLY then can you say you are on HIS protocol.

WHO on this group has MORE experience in herbs than HE does?

Certainly not ME. AND I have been on herbs for over 14 months, almost 15 months.

Jim. [Cool]

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HaplyCarlessdave
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I tried Cat's Claw, but didn't notice any clear remarkable results. However, given the recommendations cited above, I didn't take anywhere near a large enough amount. I'd say Cat's Claw appears to be something that's really worth a try.

DaveS

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Dave6002
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quote:
I tried Cat's Claw, but didn't notice any clear remarkable results.
Poor absorption could be one of the reasons.
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Wallace
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I am taking other herbs but Buhner says you can go up to 20g. Its in the book,honest Jim!!!!!

wallace

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JimBoB
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Wallace you are right, you CAN take UP to 20 grams a day. However that is NOT Buhner's recommendation for Lyme.

For arthritic conditions such as I have, he recommends about 3 to 5 grams a day. For Lyme, which I have, he recommends about 6 grams a day. I WAS taking about 6 to 7 grams a day when I was at my peak amount of herbs. I did that for about 5 or 6 months.

NOW I am down to about 3 grams a day.

It IS possible to take TOO MUCH of anything, and that holds true for Cat's Claw also. IF you are having intestinal problems that could be the case. Absolutely do NOT take any Tums or other acid blockers with Cat's Claw. As they have the tendency to keep it from working like it should.

I can not tell you HOW MUCH to take as EVERYONE is different. YOU will have to decide that for yourself.

I would take it in whole herb form rather than tinctures.

Jim [Cool]

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Wallace
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Proof that most LLMD know nothing about herbs!

In the amazon its been used for thousands of years!

wallace

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JimBoB
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WOW, THIS is a first!!!!!

You are correct, Wallace.

LLMD's are just more expensive MD's it is appearing more and more every day.

IF your LLMD would study up on herbs, and especially Buhner's Book Healing Lyme NATURALLY, she would KNOW you NEED to take care of your liver and the REST of the Lymph system FIRST. AND IF you follow HIS advice ALL THE WAY, you won't have to worry about your LIVER.

It is what MOST LLMD's prescribe that "I" would be concerned about as far as dying.

It is the ABX that you NEED to take SHORT TERM, NOT the herbs.

I have been on herbs, INCLUDING Cat's Claw for almost 15 months now, and I am STILL alive. WHAT would SHE attribute THAT to??????? Maybe the fact that I am NOT taking antibiotics???

Jim [Cool]

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jwf
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I've been taking both Samento and Cat's Claw
for three years now. My liver has never felt
better. [Smile]

That LLMD is way off base. Cat's Claw is
known to help the liver heal from many
different problems.

I chose the RainTree Cat's Claw before
Buhner's book was published so of course
I agree with his choice. [Big Grin]

Symptom free from Lyme and Morgellons for
about 1 1/2 years now with Herbal Treatment.

Blue Skies.........John

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JimBoB
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Thanks for posting John.

Good to hear from you again.

Jim [Cool]

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jasonsmith
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quote:
Originally posted by jwf:
I've been taking both Samento and Cat's Claw
for three years now. My liver has never felt better. [Smile]

That LLMD is way off base. Cat's Claw is
known to help the liver heal from many
different problems.

I chose the RainTree Cat's Claw before
Buhner's book was published so of course
I agree with his choice. [Big Grin]

Symptom free from Lyme and Morgellons for
about 1 1/2 years now with Herbal Treatment.

Blue Skies.........John

Is that all the Herbal stuff you take? Just Samento and Cat's Claw? Do you get them both from the same place?
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JimBoB
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Jason:
NO, John has been on MANY different herbs, for quite awhile. You might look him up in search and see if you can find some of his posts. He was on herbs BEFORE BUhner's book came out. He wasn't on Buhner's protocol, but what he did worked for him and his wife.

His protocol does have some of the herbs Buhner recommends.

Jim [Cool]

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Wallace
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Personally I think it is shameful that some LLMD havent read Buhners book.

It would raise the level of debate on this board, if board members here would get hold of a copy but maybe I am baised!

This is a new ball game with chronic lyme as B says here everything is experimental here!!


Re John Anyone know what dosage of cats claw he was on?

Wallace

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hardynaka
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Wow, 20 grams is quite something.

I felt something going on my liver with the toa version, pain and so on.

But nothing really bad with the whole version cats' claw.

I've taken it for about 14 months, whole version, without any trouble. But my maximum dose was 6 capsules (and I took it for short time). Mostly I was on 3-4 capsules a day, 00 size, rain tree brand.

I don't think most people herx with cats claw. I however didn't stop taking it as I felt it made a good 'marriage' with other core protocol herbs.

I come from Brazil, and I had heard about 'unha de gato' (cats' claw) before. It is a traditional herb used by the indigenous population for many sorts of ailments. But I guess that even there, there's a 'traditional medicine man' that prescribes the right amount for each person.

I guess that while some people need a lot to get the right effect, others would need less to get the same effect.

Selma

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jwf
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The dosage depends on the person and the
level of infection-- and how well you can
handle detox.

I followed Dr. Jemsek's rule of thumb,
and worked towards the maximum herx.
That was just over 50 drops/day of Samento
when I stopped herxing altogether, then
I switched back to the RainTree Cat's Claw.
This was combined with Sarsaparilla and
Grape Seed Extract.

A common co-infection is Candida and a
die-off with it also causes a herx.
Pau d'Arco, Olive Leaf Extract, Oregano,
Coconut Oil, Garlic, and a very strong
group of herbs called Mycocide from Enzymes
International, are just a few of the
natural supplements to work on that.

For detox we found Triphala, folic acid,
and NAC (Cysteine), to be helpful.
Also it's important to keep the roughage
at a good level, and we found Alfalfa to
be a real mover in that area.

Some of the Morgellons folks don't seem
to believe that we are symptom free with
herbal treatment-- but what can you do.
As bad as Lyme was for us it doesn't begin
to compare with the nightmare called
Morgellons. Our experience is proof in our
eyes that the right herbs taken at the right
levels will help you heal.

Blue Skies........John

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JimBoB
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John:
I was taking Oregano, Garlic and Olive leaf and didn't notice any difference from when I did't take it. And Sarah at 1st Chinese Herbs said that it could be they are "hot" herbs and were cancelling out my Buhner protocol herbs. Which are for the most part "cold" herbs.

Any thoughts on this?

Jim [Cool]

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lingolady
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Jim,
Have you noticed any difference since you've been doing Buhner's protocol. I started it about 6 weeks ago. I can't seem to get past three of the main three herbs - cats claw, andrographis and resveratrol.

Did you find these herbs constipating? Did you take any of the other herbs?

Laura

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JimBoB
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Hi Lingo:

I take many of Buhner's Herbs besides the core protocol.

I did NOT find any of them constipating, but I may not be the best barometer for THAT particular problem since I have NO colon. Devil's Claw gave me a lot of gas at first, but seems okay now.

I was up to 93 capsules a day for about 5 or 6 months. Now I am only doing about 55 or so a day.

Plus a couple of tinctures, Red Root and Periwinkle, and also about 3,000 mg of C-Salts a day. Also Vitamin A and E. And a multivitamin.
I quit taking vitamin B complex as it gave me a lot of pain on urinating.

Besides the core protocol, I also like Sarsaparilla, Devil's Claw, Nettle Leaf, Milk Thistle, Schisandra berry, Stephania Root, and like I said; Red Root tincture and Periwinkle tincture.

I have also taken other herbs, but haven't for awhile. They are Oregano, Olive Leaf, Garlic, Siberian Ginseng, Ginger, Artemisinin, Artemisia annua, and some others.

Some of them I noticed no difference, others bothered me.

And YES, I am MANY times better than when I first started. I was living at about 30 to 40% of my potential, and I think I am at better than 90% NOW.

Hope you can take the herbs and get better soon.

Jim [Cool]

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