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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Reaction to Andrographis or just a Herx

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Author Topic: Reaction to Andrographis or just a Herx
serendipity
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Hello,
I lost it yesterday. [Frown]

I started Andrographis on Tuesday (Natures Way) at 2 pills a day. Tuesday I become suddenly, depressed, burst into tears and found myself unable to focus on even a silly TV show (Scrubs). That night my sleep was restless, lots of vivid dreams.

The next day was better, much better, I felt motivated and started planning for a trip and a refresher language course.

Yesterday I added back a low dose of artemesinin (100 mg) as scheduled. It was a frightening day. Irrational age, restless energy, followed by depression. My heart was pounding and my palms were sweaty. Couldn't recall events from the day before, unable to write.

My LLMD fortunately called. My plan was to reduce the dose of andrographis. He said to stop it entirely.

He thinks that the andrographis is being converted into a metaboite which then interferes with neurotransmitters. He's found this in a small number of his patients.

I thought it was an emotional herxheimer, uncomfortable but productive. Perhaps the angrographis was getting into parts of my CNS that other herbs and rife had not hit in two years of treatment. My behavior yesterday was not entirely new, there had been periods of such depression, irritability and lability before. Not since treatment though and never to such an extreme.

Has anyone had a similar experience with Andrographis? Does it get better (I truly can't funtion in the state I was yesterday)? Did you find Andrographis to be useful in the long term?

Thanks all, in advance.

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Vermont_Lymie
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Hi serendipity,

I found Andrographis to be truly helpful.

When I first took it, I could only take one-half capsule (same brand) and felt awful, very flu-ey the next day. Must have been a herx.

Taking any Andro at first made me feel very spacey and tired, my classic herx. So I first took it only before bedtime.

Over several months, I worked slowly up to 6-7 capsules/day, 2 in the morning, 2 at lunch and 2 after dinner. I have absolutely no effect from it now, except that I feel much better!

Although I am also taking abx and so there is no way to attribute proportional improvement to any one supplement or the amoxy, I definitely think the Andro helped alot with neuro lyme symptoms.

What you experienced may be a herx, but of course you must listen to your doc for medical advice.

Is there any way to test what your doctor is hypothesizing, that Andro effects a small number of people by impacting neurotransmitters?

Could your effects be from the Art?

Feel better!

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clairenotes
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Sorry that I don't have any experience with andrographis to offer. I just wanted to say that it sounds like you have a great LLMD, who seems to really be paying attention to the finer details. An important attribute! Maybe he has some alternative suggestions?

Claire

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trueblue
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^up^
for more input


[group hug]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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JimBoB
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The ONLY time I had ANY problems with Andrographis was when I mixed it with Artemisia annua AND Coptis for a day. Took me 3 weeks to recover from that one.

Otherwise I have never had ANY symptoms one way or the other that I know of from Andro.


I was up to 12 capsules a day, but now I am down to 6 capsules a day. I have been taking it for almost 14 months now.

I don't consider it my most important herb, but a good one.

Jim [Cool]

[ 17. March 2007, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: JimBoB ]

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Annxyz
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I am on the andro also ( almost three weeks) .
I have also been going through a very emotional time, but I had the same experience with DOXY
when I started it . I felt so physically helpless and overwhelmed and felt like a barely alive vegetable with two feet .

The herx symptoms are so awful because they make us feel so useless and you wonder if there are EVER any better days ahead .

I do feel like the andro kills pathogens (!!) and I hate to see anyone stop taking it , esp since you do not get yeast infections or stomachaches or nausea ( ABX) with the potency of the herb .
On the other hand , I personally think that anything that has an alarming side effect , should be stopped , then slowly tried again later .

Do you think the art could be causing the emotional issues ? It may be that the combo of the two ( both are potent !) caused the issue . You could stay on the art a while, get used to it , then slowly add the andro again.

Have you tried rife ? I am going to do Buhner's protocol a year , then ADD the rife .
If I treid them both , I might die , or would at laest be despairing . The herbs cause major herxing for many people I have heard from.

I am amazed however how many people have stated that they did begin to feel better after several months on andro. I have never known of anyone feeling better after a year of ABX . I sure did not .

I think each of us has to listen to our inner voice ( instinct ) as we navigate . Despite the fact that sooo many here believe that they can only find solutions in ABX, my gut tells me to seek other avenues .

I do not have insurance that will cover lyme TX , nor do I think I could susrvive the massive quantities and rotations of multiple ABX for years on end. I would be in a perpetual state of nausea ( and thus despair !) .

I will say a prayer that you are directed in the path you shpould take.

PLEASE Keep us posted !!
annxyz

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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trueblue
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[hi]
I'm bumping this since I know Serendipity is away from the puter, at the moment.

I'm sure the responses are greatly appreciated.

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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JimBoB
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Annxyz

I am sorry to hear you too are having problems with your herbs. HOWEVER, I personally would not blame the Andrographis.

The Artemisinin can do that though. It affected me in wierd ways. It was terrible with Coptis.

Drop the Artemisinin for awhile, and add the Andrographis back SLOWLY and see HOW you feel. I hope you are taking Sarsaparilla, Red Root tincture AND Milk Thistle also while you are taking your herbs. IF NOT, then I can see WHY you are having troubles.

It is the WHOLE PROTOCOL that IS important. Not just one or two items. One herb compliments the other, IF you follow Buhner's Protocol exclusively. WHEN you vary it, then you get into trouble sometimes. AND SOME people are more sensitive than others to various herbs, just like some of us are more sensitive to abx also.

Hope you have better days ahead.

Jim [Cool]

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JimBoB
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PS:

Serendipity, start out with ONLY ONE (1) pill a day of the Andrographis, also. Maybe only 1/2 a pill in YOUR case.

The keyword is Slooooooooooow. Go slow.

Jim [Cool]

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Annxyz
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Serendipity,

Have you considered dropping the ART and taking the andro a while until you have more tolerance for it and have adjusted to the core protocol ?

I am on the core protocol and want to eventually add art , but I would probably give birth to a goldfish if I combined them now ( or just die) .

I have a feeling that combining the two
superkillers was not a good idea at this point .

However , it may be a totally different experience in six months or a year .

Incidentally , there are folks here who have PM ed me and had to take very small doses of the andro , and still saw improvement .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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hardynaka
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Artemisinin + andro = explosive herxes. [dizzy]

I would NEVER recommend anyone using these two potent killers at the same time. The first time, my body stood it. The second time, I ended up in emergency with terrible air hunger. Since then I never touched artemisinin again (even if I had used it for months before that event).

Artemisinin COULD be MUCH harsher than andro and the two together were just explosive for me. I truly believe they could make me die (I was on 300mg artemisinin a day + 6 capsules andrographis a day when I went first to emergency).

In my experience, herxes with artemisinin are much harder than herxes with andro. I herxed tons with artemisia annua too, but it's a bearable herx, like andro's herxes for me (if taken in the right amount).

The air hunger I got in that same day took me MONTHS, almost a year, to go totally away. I'm not still 100% sure I got TOTALLY rid of lung problems since then. Before that day, I never in my life had suffered from air hunger.

Buhner is not recommending artemisinin anymore due to feedback he's having from users and probably to lack of success (I guess).

I would drop artemisinin and possibly try artemisia annua, much milder in herxes and also very efficient (at least for lyme). But even when using artemisia annua, I would take it NOT SIMULTANEOUSLY with potent killers like andro and stephania. Not until you're SURE of how much you herx with the herbs individually.

If you're afraid of borrelia coming back full force while you're treating babs, I would keep lower doses of sarsaparilla and/or knotweed, but in no means adding andro, once you reacted with such low doses.

I would rather drop artemisinin hundred times than dropping andrographis. Artemisinin seems to help less people than andro does.

Buhner is recommending artemisia annua instead of artemisinin and another herb (cryptolepis) for babs. See Planet thrive for dosages.

My personal opinion, of course. Follow your gut (and possibly your doctor!).

Hope you'll feel better soon!
Selma

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Boomerang
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Selma, I was interested to read your posts and thoughts. I ordered the Andogrpahs for my husband, but he hasn't tried it yet. We went for an LLMd visit...and he prescribed more oral ABX.

Frustrating trying to figure out the right thing to do.

Thanks and best wishes to you.

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Ruth Ruth
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I am curious, how do I know I need to treat for Babs? I have do night sweats and some palps from time to time. What few headaches I get seem to be sinus related. But I have developed a couple little cherry angiomas. Is that enough to make a guess at it?

Also, where does one find the cryptolepis?

Finally, does anyone take cayenne pepper for Babs infections? It is a favorite of mine just in general, but I wondered if it would help.

--------------------
When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness,
Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.

RuthRuth

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serendipity
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Good morning,

I was away from the computer this week. Thank you so much for all of the input.

And to True for bumping up my post while I was away. She knows how wacky I was Thursday [dizzy] .

I'll write more when I get back from church.

Just wanted to say hello for now.

[ 25. February 2007, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: serendipity ]

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serendipity
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Hello,
Apparenty I haven't completely recovered. There were 15 four year olds in the Sunday school class I was teaching. I feel bad for the little ones, between the spaciness and tremors I wasn't of much use.
[Frown]

Yet, I feel something was released during those three emotional day. My range of feeling has expanded, I am more alive to emotions. I'm intent on trying the Andro again

Vermont-Thank you for the input. I was told also to start at either 1/2 or 1 capsule but did two.
Encouraging to know that you feel much better, especially that your neuro symptoms have cleared.

I spoke to Sara at 1st Chinese Herbs and she warned me that many people get extremely sick on Andro and so she suggests 1/2 a capsule to begin with. She believes it is the liver dumping toxins into the system. I spoke to her after I took the andro, the liver is also where anger and frustration are stored according to Chinese medicine. She thinks the emotional symptoms were a release of some type and suggestd a month of mild liver detox before trying again.
This is what is she suggested:
warm lemon teas (water can not be room temp)
lots of green vegetables
Also sleeping by 10:30

I too wondered how my doctor could confirm his hyptothesis about the neurotransmitters. He uses energetic testing with homepathic vials or a energies from computer program.
He could put a vial or energies of neurotrasmitters (serotonin, dopamine, ect) and then the andrographis together. If I go weak, then they are having a bad interaction.

Here is the problem, he doesn't think it is the andro but a metabolite that I am producing, something in my body. It would be hard to get the energy of that metabolite from my body. We could simply ask my body if that is true and see the response.


Claire-I agree. I wish we had more like him. His mind is always at work thinking of possibiities and new ways to treat patients.

True-Thank you again.

JimBob
You said
quote:

I don't consider it my most important herb, but a good one.

Interesting. I thoght Andro was the most important herb for killing lyme in the protocal. What are the most important herbs in your
experience

I'll be back to answer the rest.
You guys are great.
[kiss]

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Annxyz
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Buhner does say that the central " killer" in the protocol IS andrographis . He states it pretty clearly .

IMO ( personal experience and I am not a scientist) the protocol would probably not work without it . The responses I read here seem to indicate that also , because many have simply added andro to ABX and felt it made a significant difference .

I do suspect that the resveratrol POTENTIATES THE andro a LOT ! Based on my personal experience , as I added it later .

I would love to know if the andro inhibits replication of lyme. My gut tells me it does, because there have been people getting better in a year's time. That is not usually the case
for most ABX at all. That is why this protocol fascinates me.

I DO believe andrographis KILLS LYME . The effect is just too strong to believe otherwise .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Annxyz
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Serendipity,
I agree with Selma about andro and art .

When I tried art, I felt I had a cloud of gloom over my head ( low spirits ) .

I am inclined to question art as being responsible for your emotional ups and downs .

I also think they may be almost a lethal combo for herxing .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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trueblue
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You're welcome Ser,
And I'm learning some stuff, too. [Smile]


Sorry about the 4 year olds but they are pretty spacy themselves, so don't sweat it. If they got cookies... I'm sure they're good. [Wink]

Hang in there and I hope you're feeling better soon.
[group hug]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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serendipity
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Ann,
Thanks for your responses. I'll be back shorty to give a thoughtful reply, or more accurately further questions.

True-The program stopped giving snacks last month. [Frown]

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serendipity
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Ann-
quote:
I have also been going through a very emotional time, but I had the same experience with DOXY
when I started it . I felt so physically helpless and overwhelmed and felt like a barely alive vegetable with two feet .

The herx symptoms are so awful because they make us feel so useless and you wonder if there are EVER any better days ahead

Yes, that is how I felt, like a barely alive vegetable with two feet. Unable to move my body or my thougts forward.
Now I have been taking herbs and rifing for two years almost, but nothing has affected me to that extent.

Is the Andro getting to places where other treatments haven't?

I've been on art for a while and it hasn't caused these issues. Does give me crushing fatigue. I do think the combo was too much, along with a seven day rife session the previous week. My LLMD believes the art is more important at the moment for parasites, I trust him and will follow his protocal.

quote:
I am amazed however how many people have stated that they did begin to feel better after several months on andro. I have never known of anyone feeling better after a year of ABX . I sure did not .
That is encouraging, and my instinct is to try the Andro again.

quote:
I will say a prayer that you are directed in the path you shpould take.
That is sweet, the prayers are appreciated.
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serendipity
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Selma,

quote:
Artemisinin + andro = explosive herxes
I can vouch for that.

I will be done with my course of artemesinin in the first week of March. Then will think of reintrouducing Andrographis in a few weeks. By energetic testing, parasites are my primary problem now and I need artemesinin at a low dose (100 mg twice a day).

Stephania is a potent pathogen killer? I started it the week before Andrographis, along with Japanese Knotweed and Teasel.I thought Stephania Root was an anti-inflammatory and immune system modulator, especially for ocular conditions.

[ 25. February 2007, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: serendipity ]

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JimBoB
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SERENDIPITY WROTE:

JimBob
You said
quote:
--------------------------------

I don't consider it my most important herb, but a good one.
---------------------------------

Interesting. I thoght Andro was the most important herb for killing lyme in the protocal. What are the most important herbs in your
experience

##
Ser:

IF you will notice on page 78 of Buhner's book,he says: PERHAPS Andrographis is the most important herb in the protocol for treating Lyme.
The keyword is "perhaps".

He has later amended his thoughts with Resveratrol as HIS pick for MOST important herb in treating Lyme.

I personally agree with the Resveratrol, ALONG WITH Devil's Claw, Sarsaparilla, and Red Root tincture. In THAT order.

Cat's Claw is also important. I feel ALL the herbs I take are important, or would NOT take them. But I feel some have helped my symptoms more than others.

Jim [Cool]

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chroniccosmic
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Hello all,

I wanted to add my experience with andrographis and the core protocol.

This very issue was so troubling to me that I wrote Buhner at planet thrive and there is his answer to me there if you would like to read it. I don't want to paraphrase for him and my brain is too foggy right now anyway.

I've been on the cp for about 9 months. What I have learned is that I tolerate very small doses compared to others. Over the months, I am gradually increasing the doses and tolerating them fine. And have had more relief from the herbs than any other treatment.

I take resveratrol, smilax, andro, cats claw, huperzine, artemesia annua. I rely heavily on muscle testing to determine doses. And I can tolerate only very small doses of andrographis, sometimes a fourth to a half of a tablet. (Have to check my label for strength of a tablet.)

The herxes I had were huge and very emotional. I cried endlessly and became so despondent, wouldn't get out of bed, questioned my existence, etc. They occurred very predictably after about 12 hours of the dose. So over time, I just kept decreasing the dose to manage the herxes and became more familiar with them and their effects on me so I could plan to be in solitude for the day.

I've always felt they should be taken together to act synergistically but I really had to adjust the doses. I was very comforted by Buhners response as it just made sense to me. The herbs have always felt right even though they are sometimes rough, but never felt destructive like the abx.

As usual, there's not much science behind my responses, just gut instincts. But I hope that helps.

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hardynaka
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That's a beautiful thread!! So many different experiences.

SERENDI: wow, 7 day Rife PLUS all those herbs in combo. Girl, you are a critter murderer!!! Parasites liberate lots of bad toxins, in my short parasite experience.

Many toxic metals too (I did killing with both KMT and the frozen garlic, I don't remember details, just that it was tough).

I guess that your doctor should be right. You got to concentrate on something to kill and not shoot all sides at once. I guess you're using some metal binder, are you? Chlorella for me is a must for all the slaughtering.

The times I got to hospital, I was not using chlorella yet. Since I added 100 euro of chlorella a month, I never went back to awful emergencies. It's expensive, but I feel it's one of the supplement that worths every cent.

The last time I got in trouble (january), I was 'only' killing bartonella and funghi. Funghi alone is so harsh to kill. Then my 'wonderful' brain decided to do more KMT sessions (microcurrent), one every day, and increase funghi killer doses. Bad, bad idea. Got almost a collapse, but fortunately not too harsh as in my old days. Saved by my naturopath again. Still learning the hard way. [bonk]

What is lemon tea? Tea with drops of lemon?

As for Stephania, it seems Buhner has changed his way of viewing it lately, considering it almost as a substitute for andrographis (or to be added to the core protocol).

I came to understand it then as a potent killer too, like andro. So will also be extra carefully to add it to the CP (I would probably substitute andro for stephania, as both cross B/B barrier). I don't have experience with it though.

Oh Gosh, Serendi. Are you ALSO on teasel? Are you sure these are testing good for you, SIMULTANEOUSLY to all other killers? I mean, teasel seems to kill borrelia too. I think during all the time I was on Buhner (and I suppose, I'm still on it, as I went back to knotweed plus some Samento), I rarely used 3 good killers at once.

The times I did, it was measured for me through ART. And I was already so used to core protocol that I simply could see what each new thing was doing to me.

For example: while killing babesia, I was on PC-Noni plus CP, and probably some frozen garlic for parasites, but all in low doses. CP was minimum dose only to keep borrelia low profile while I concentrated on parasites and babesia. But I had been months on CP before that, so I knew what were each of the CP doing to me, before I added other killers.

It was always like this. I kept one killing low profile so that the other pathogen could be killed, without having my body to collapse.

Are you sure this 'metabolite' is created by the reaction of your body to andro or isn't it being created because of excess of killers?

I agree with CRONICCOSMIC and JIM, that CP has a synergistic force that no herb alone will beat.

And as for andro as killer or not too much, I guess it's just part of the whole CP, some people will swear by it (like me), some others by knotweed (like Jim).

I'm back to knotweed again after months of rest, I feel it's also potent, but in a different way.

I'm using it for bartonella now.

RUTH, many people don't know if they have babs and treat it anyway. For me, there were 3 things that pointed to babs:

- Riamet ended 4 months of almost daily night sweats in 2 days!!!
- I got all symptoms that are said to belong to babs. Not at the same time, but they kept changing.
- muscle test showed babs positive by two different practioners.

Selma

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trueblue
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up

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Ruth Ruth
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One thing I am learning here on the forum is that it's easy to go 'overboard' and really mess yourself up! But at least you have each other to support, encourage and coach one another. Awesome!

I don't know much about much, but I've been kind of crawling around in the dark, trying to find a way through this maze. Listening to my heart and trying to feed my head helpful info. My heart's proven to be smarter whenever I check.

My daily routine has been
Enzymes: Vitalzym x10, O-Zyme x6, + raw fermented foods
Gut: Epicor x1, Healthy Trinity x1, Biotin (1g) x1
Mg/Calm: Myocalm P.M. x8-10, Coenzyme B Cmplx x1
Brain: Krill Oil (NKO, 500mg) x3, CoQ10(100mg) x3
Endochrine: Support Adrenals x2, Raw Glandulars x1, Thyroid Health x1, + herbal 'female tonic' blend
Detox: Nettle x2, Dandilion Root x2, Living Greens x6, + cilantro pesto
Multi: liquid multivitamin/minerals in fulvic
Food: mostly organic, no toxic S.A.D.
Spices: lots of celtic salt, ginger, cayenne, garlic

I've tried oregano oil, olive leaf, samento, wellness formula and others for anti-microbials and I usually end up with rashes. The homeopathic with APIS does help with the rash... along with my stevia concentrate I paint on my skin.

I did use the Quina/Cumanda protocol for most of January, but couldn't tell it was doing much. But I did feel drawn to the Quina. The Cumanda felt "harsh" to me for some reason. But then I ran out.

Then I read Buhner's book. So, I added two Resveratrol per day to my routine. I started to feel really "off" within days. Emotionally adrift, and new joint pain/symptoms that I've never had before. And this huge fear of chronic illness taking over my life. I spent time in front of my fireplace thinking about how great it is to have the divine flames burn up all this emotional 'detox' I was experiencing. Not fun. Not fun at all.

About a week into this, I got a light-bulb moment. How about I add back in those rain-tree herbal powders sitting under my cabinet? This decoction was what I tried last summer with some success: Sarsaparilla, Cat's Claw, Pau D'Arco, Yerba Matte, plus Ginger and Olive Leaf, boiled for 15 mins.

This last batch I even added some powdered Mg Citrate which made it really rich and better somehow.

I'm not sure if that is what did it, but I'm not having all those emotional/joint symptoms since 2 days into the new "tea"... I'm only drinking about a cup, added to the half gallon of herbals I sip on all day long, but I think it's helping.

I said all that to say this. I think the Resveratrol (Japanese Knotweed) really started something going without adding in the andro or anything else on the list.

--------------------
When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness,
Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.

RuthRuth

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Ruth Ruth
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Just to make it clear, I'm taking the Resveratrol from Source Naturals recommended in the book. The one that uses Japanese Knotweed.

--------------------
When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness,
Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.

RuthRuth

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JimBoB
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Ruth, that tea you are taking has about 2/3 of what I am taking in it in capsule form. So it SHOULD be good for you. Especially the Sarsaparilla.

The Sarsaparilla is good as a blood cleanser AND for rashes. Plus a whole bunch more things.

jim [Cool]

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Ruth Ruth
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Thanks JimBob,

I suppose I should have started a new thread or something, but I just didn't feel up to it (or much else) for the past couple of days.

I just got my red root and boneset tinctures (ecclectic) in the mail and will try adding them in too. (I know you mention them alot.)

A friend who has been in the health/herbal stuff for many, many years advised me last year to smell everything before deciding to take it. Things that don't smell 'right' are probably going to give you trouble, I guess.

Before I make a batch of tea for the week, I've been deciding how much of each herb to add based on how good it smells to me [all you scientific types who haven't checked out already, don't freak out... I do have a BSEE and I understand the difference between 'controlled studies' and 'real life' ...your nose is an objective sensor used to provide your brain with an incredible amount of nonverbal information].

The sarsaparilla smells heavenly to me right now.

--------------------
When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness,
Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.

RuthRuth

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serendipity
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Good morning,
I'm back on lymenet after another brief break. Thank you for the responses, so much good advice to ponder and discuss with my doctor.

I will come back later today and repond to the posts. [Smile]

Ruth, I do like your approach of combining the intutive with the logical. Smell is connected directly to higher corticol functions of the brain.

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serendipity
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Hi chronic,

quote:
The herxes I had were huge and very emotional. I cried endlessly and became so despondent, wouldn't get out of bed, questioned my existence, etc. They occurred very predictably after about 12 hours of the dose. So over time, I just kept decreasing the dose to manage the herxes and became more familiar with them and their effects on me so I could plan to be in solitude for the day.


This is very much how I felt. It comforts me to know that this may be part of a typical response and healing, perhaps andro is killing microbes in the brain or it may more complex. It didn't feel unnecessary or toxic. Rather I feel it something my body and my mind need to go through when better prepared. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Selma, Your post made me laugh [Smile]


quote:
Girl, you are a critter murderer!!!
[Big Grin]
Yup.

I think we just overdid it. Finding the balance is hard. My doctor muscle tested each herb and supplement, and I assume he asked (silently though) if I could take all in combination.
When I saw the sheet of the new herbs and rife frequencies, I asked if we were trying to kill the critters or me. He laughed and said to start slowly. Which I didn't.

I have been mopping up heavy metals with DMSA, chlorella & spirulnia, Algas, and cilantro. Oh yes, I also added low doses of Super-Z-lyte every third day.

My last session showed that another load mercury has been released from my latest die off. Another homeopathic laser treatment for that will be in order.


quote:
What is lemon tea? Tea with drops of lemon?
Fresh lemon squeezed into warm water. Quite simple.

I didn't realize that Stephania is a potent antimicrobal, it isn't appartent from Buhnerks bood. I will consider this as I start the protocal. I took the Resvertraol and Stephania root in preparation for the Andro, believing they would strengthen my system for another killer. Seems from recent posts here that many of these strenghthening herbs also have antimicrobal activity.

Ok, in conclusion, I am going to stop the teasel for a week and see how my body responds to just the Stephani Root and Resvertrol. Or stop the Stephania Root and just do the Resvertrol and Teasel. Thanks again Selma.

Ruth Ruth- How do you prepare your tea for a week in advance? Preparing two or three teas daily is becoming cumbersome.

[ 04. March 2007, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: serendipity ]

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hardynaka
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Serendi. Glad you're still alive [Big Grin] and well!!!

Selma

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Wallace
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I dont seem to be able to take Andro continually no matter how small(1/4 tablet) the dose so will try pulsing it and see how that goes. We are all different!

Wallace

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Annxyz
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Serendipity,
I am having to stop the herbs for now which is extrememly discouraging .( I have been boo hooing too) .

While I can not say for certain that they are the root of my prblems, I think it is best to take a break , then possible try them again.

I have totally lost my appetite , can not taste my food , and havwe developed sleep problems .
I am also not in a good place emotionally .
I got to the point where the herx was tolerable, then developed these problems.

After the successes here with this protocol, I HATE having to stop . I do believe the herbs are effective with bacteria , and wish I could respond without problems to this approach.

As I said , the herbs may NOT be the cause of the problems I am experiencing ; it is hard to know. Discretion calls me to at least pause
and reeveluate .

I hope the other people here can replicate the success of Jim Bob , Selma, and Maria.

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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hardynaka
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Wallace, 1/4 tablet a day? Or 3x day?

Planetary brand, I suppose?

I wonder if this is not an allergy/ MCS reaction, either to andro or to fillings...

Sorry to hear that. I guess at this tiny amount, it's not herxing your problem, right? What do you feel 'bad'? Immediately after intake or does it take about 30 minutes - 1 hour?

ANNXYZ: lost of appetite could be linked to liver problems? It sounds a bit like excess of toxins. As I told before, I don't think B's protocol alone can clean enough.

I got similar symptoms of yours with toxin build up (sleeping more, tiredness, even sweats, inability to kill, I mean, my body couldn't kill anymore even ramping up with killers, lack of appetite, pain on liver, kidney, brain fog, foggy eyes etc).

And as I told before, I would never ramp up to my 'limit' of herxing. For my body, I find this approach 'wrong'. My body can't tolerate this excessive killing for long term, only short term (few days, but certainly not few weeks...).

I always ramped up to my limit of no-herxing, I guess... When I reached the amount I felt good /improving, I didn't ramp anymore, I stayed there for months and months.

The times I ramped 'wrong', I stepped backwards later as I had to stop killing everything and try to 'fix' my body of toxin damage.

If your liver, kidneys, lymph are loaded with toxins, you can't kill well anymore (with or without herbs). It's like if a box full of filth without any doors or openings to clean it.

Buhner protocol was my main protocol for killing. For cleasing, I used dr. K's approach. So in my case, it was not a single protocol that took me out of hell.

this is just a guess, though...

Wallace's problem doesn't look like toxin build up from herxes, as he's taking only tiny doses... It sounds more like allergy, intolerance, MCS for me...

Selma

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trueblue
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quote:
Originally posted by hardynaka:
Wallace, 1/4 tablet a day? Or 3x day?

Planetary brand, I suppose?

I wonder if this is not an allergy/ MCS reaction, either to andro or to fillings...

Sorry to hear that. I guess at this tiny amount, it's not herxing your problem, right? What do you feel 'bad'? Immediately after intake or does it take about 30 minutes - 1 hour?

...

Wallace's problem doesn't look like toxin build up from herxes, as he's taking only tiny doses... It sounds more like allergy, intolerance, MCS for me...

Selma

Wallace,
scroll down to LymeEd's post on this thread:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=052528

It described me and many meds/supps to a T.


Sorry for the hijack, Ser!
...back to our show already in progress. [Wink]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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caat
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BAD HERB INTERACTION!!!

Artemisinin is a peroxide (oxidant). Very strong peroxide qualities!!

Andrographis is an anti-oxidant

Just this one interaction alone should be enough to set off chemical changes in one or (probably) BOTH herbs. NOT A GOOD THING!!

I hope no one is recommending they be taken together. If so I'm very very far from impressed!!!! NOT A GOOD THING!!! It might be a very good idea to google the properties and interactions of ANY OTHER herbs that are recommended.

Andrographis should NOT be taken with mepron either.

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JimBoB
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I do not think very many on this thread would even consider Mepron. At $800 for a month's supply it is far and above the pocketbooks of most of us "po' folks".

I have taken Andro and Artemisinin without ANY trouble at all, even at very high doses of the Artemisinin as recommended.

And I didn't have any real problems taking Andrographis AND Artemisia annua, for a few weeks either. It was when I added in COPTIS that I got into trouble last July. It WAS scarey, and took me about three weeks to recuperate.

You SHOULD be careful WHAT you combine though. Combining HOT and COLD herbs for the most part is not good either. They end up luke warm as a whole combo, and kind of cancel each other out.

Follow Buhner's protocol and you will be pretty safe in my experienced opinion. MHO.

Like I have said before here and other places: ALL the medical field is floundering out there, just some are floundering less than others.

Jim [Cool]

PS: I would HOPE NO one is TRYING to impress anyone here.
###

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trueblue
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http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=052899
(Just putting this here to link the 2 threads.)


JimBob, in case anyone did want to take Mepron, and I'm not suggesting they do... it can be gotten for free from the manufacturer... providing you meet their patient assistance criterion. Many of us can not afford herbs and supps, either, they are not cheaper as a general rule.

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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JimBoB
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TrueBlue:
I didn't know that. Well IF they want to go that route, I guess. I sure wouldn't want to take it.

However herbs, as a GENERAL rule would NEVER cost us as much as Mepron. But, yes, they do cost plenty when at the MAXIMUM recommended amount for a few months. However I got around that by encapsulating my own pills.

You save about 75 to 80% by doing your own. And now that I am semi-retired I have more time to do them while I am watching some TV. I usually read magazines during commercials anyway. I have had no trouble keeping up with my protocols this way. And now that I am down to about 1/3 of the maximum protocol, it is easy to keep up.

The machines are very cheap, mine were less than $12.00. Now they are up to about $14.00, but still cheap as they should last many years.

Jim [Cool]

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cottonbrain
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Jimbob,where do you get the ingredients to encapsulate your own? And the machine?

I've been on the core protocol plus artemisin since Jan 3 and have increased gradually to 3x day.

The only herb I never felt a herx on was art. I wonder what brand everybody uses? Mine was cheap stuff from swansons, also Doctors Best.

What is muscle testing??

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catalysT
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Hi Serendipity..

I can't really say whether you are experiencing a negative side effect from the herb and its chemicals, or herx. Personally, I've had no bad reactions to artemisinin, but I've had definite negative side effects to andrographis extract.

For me, andrographis caused rapid and frequent, cycling muscle twitching all over my body. It was not nice! Took me a bit to realize andrographis was the culprit, but I discontinued it when i finally did realize. I had a simular negative reaction to Provigil. I am attributing it to a negative reaction and not a herx. Be careful and get well!

--------------------
"You know, the worst, meanest, nastiest, ticks in the world are politicks," - Steve Nostrum

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disturbedme
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YES! Andrographis is something that made me herx worse than anything, including MEDS.

I started out by taking LESS than what is recommended. I took one capsule 1x a day, which is very, very low starting. But this ONE little capsule a day made me herx for TWO weeks straight. Then I stopped it for a couple days and started again, and after that I was fine. No more herxes from it.

Then I started on two capsules a day and that was fine too. I'm up to three capsules a day now and still no more herxing from it. I think maybe I got all the herxing done during when I was taking the one capsule a day for two weeks.

Anyway, it probably was a herx!!!

I know that Andrographis crosses the Blood Brain Barrier. It's strong stuff! [Big Grin]

--------------------
One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar.
~ Helen Keller

My Lyme Story

Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
disturbedme
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Also, I forgot to add that Andrographis is something that really helps my TMJ (which I think is caused by the lyme!). If I don't take my Andrographis a certain day, I can tell by the TMJ.

Or, if I wake up with really bad TMJ, I take my Andrographis and it gets so much better.

It's weird how it works, but it really does seem to help my TMJ. Maybe the spirochetes/buggies are what's causing my TMJ and the Andrographis moves them out of the jaw/kills some of them, so my TMJ isn't so bad after taking the Andrographis.

--------------------
One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar.
~ Helen Keller

My Lyme Story

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Cass A
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I had a serious reaction to andrographis at low doses--passed out for over half an hour twice.

Best,

Cass A

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