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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » URGENT -- Petechiae -- Bart or Babs???

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Author Topic: URGENT -- Petechiae -- Bart or Babs???
seibertneurolyme
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Hubby just admitted to hospital today after ER visit #4 in last 8 days.

He has many new petechiae on his chest and a few on his back -- I had him strip a couple of days ago looking for new bruises so I know these are new.

Nurse thought they were cherry angiomas -- hubby does have some of those but they are larger -- they go back to a childhood bout with chickenpox.

Need references or links to pictures that says petechiae can be caused by Bart or Babs?

The big question as always is which infection to treat most agressively -- since this is a new symptom I thought that could be significant.

Hubby has been on low dose quinine for almost 4 months now -- 10 day rotation cycles -- sweats have been much more severe last 2 -3 weeks. Worried that Babs may have become drug resistant to quinine.

Downhill trend in symptoms dates back to around May 1 -- hubby took 50 mg Rifampin for 3 days then.

Has positive blood slide for both Bart and Babs from mid March.

Thanks for any help.

Bea Seibert

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minoucat
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Bea -- the most common reference to petechia in terms of TBDs is for RMSF.

Petechia are also frequently cited in relation to erlichia, and as an allergic reaction to medication.

There's quite a bit about rashs of unspecified sorts and bart, but not a lot specifically petechia and bart.

Didn't have time to do much of a search for what you specifically needed, but here are a few things I found for petachia and bart:

--Bartonellosis in Peru (This is Bartonella bacilliformis -- not sure how closely this is related
b. henselae?)

--B. henselae: endocarditis, bacillary anglomatosis, peliosis hepatis, granulomatous hepatitis, pseudotumoral lesions, arthritis, arthralgia, osteomyelitis, nodules, erythema, cutaneous petechiae, uveitis,
Emerging Infectious Diseases


petechia and babesia:

Clinical manifestations of babesiosis include fever, chills, myalgia, ecchymoses, and petechiae. Laboratory ab-normalities include hemolytic anemia, elevated liver func-tion test results, leukopenia, and thrombocytopenia. Severe
complications may result from a delay in diagnosis.
Concurrent babesia and erlichia -- Mayo Clinic

Concurrent Lyme and Babesiosis

Babesiosis

Seems like there should be better stuff -- but most of what I found was either in subscribe-only journals (that I don't subscribe to) or in veterinary reports. LOTS of stuff about petechia, bart, and erlichia in the vet articles.

Best of luck, Bea. My thoughts are with you both.

[ 23. May 2007, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: minoucat ]

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by minoucat:
Bea -- the most common reference to petechia

I put this thread in Newbie Links

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CaliforniaLyme
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Petechiae can be from MANY infectious diseases- VERY non-specific!!!!

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All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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randibear
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my mom and others in my family have them.

my doc is not concerned but i sure am.

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AlisonP
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I keep hearing that it's a babs thing...but I have thousands of them all over my body and have bartonella, but tested negative for babs.

[Smile]

Alison

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AlisonP
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wikipedia has a photo ... relates petechiae to RMSF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petechiae

Looks just like the stuff on me - here's a photo I just took
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Okay..I was searching for images of petechiae and some of the stuff that was coming up in the dermatology pages is enough to make me really queasy so I'm going to stop looking now! [dizzy]

[Smile]

Alison

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kelmo
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Okay, that's weird. My husband has those all over his body. No one has every said anything. I just assumed they were just skin discolorations.

He is hardly every sick. So maybe his immune system is pristine.

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groovy2
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Hi All

Babs will cause spots like those--
I used to have them all over --

Glad to know what its called =

After about 8 months of Strong babs treatment
98% of these spots are gone --AAhhhhh

A few new spots will pop out when I am herxing--

These spots sometimes have this nerve thing
that when I scratch one on my arm
I can feel it on my back ect.

The spots can Itch like Crazy - Horrible -

Babs is a Tuff bug --
Treatment is long and ruff --

I think Aggressive treatment is
usually necessary --

From my experance pulsing meds was
not a good idea --
I lost Much progress Everytime I stopped
babs treatment for even a few days --

Hope this helps --Jay--

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duke77
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Everyone always says bart or babs when it comes to petechiae. Just plain Lyme can cause them too. Petechiae are caused by a low platelet count. Many things can effect the platelet count.

[ 24. May 2007, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: duke77 ]

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Jill E.
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My platelets are fine and I have both the tiny red pinpoint petechiae (cherry angiomas) that two LLMDs said are Babs, and I have larger pimply red rashes that then flatten into red spots (larger than the Babs petechiae) that two LLMDs said are Bart (bacillary angiomatosis).

I am currently on Bart treatment (Rifampin) and this is when the larger red spots began and continue spreading. The smaller Babs petechiae are staying kind of stable but I have not yet begun Babs treatment.

Jill

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treepatrol
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When I was on Mepron and biaxin for babs I got those on my ankled lower legs??Mepron caused maybe???

[ 03. January 2008, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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treepatrol
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petechiae


petechiae babesiosis

The second link has mixed in bartonella pics check All the pages.

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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treepatrol
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Also
Discussion:

Clopidogrel in combination with abciximab has been shown to have a higher incidence of significant thrombocytopaenia than clopidogrel and other medications like ticlopidine [1].


Clopidogrel has been also reported to cause thrombotic thrombocytopaenic purpura [2] more often, than just thromboctopaenia alone [3].


Heparin, Aspirin, Clopidogrel and Abciximab in a variety of combinations are used in managing patients with coronary disease.


There has been reports of acute profound thrombocytopaenia in the setting of coronary angioplasty and the dilemmas in managing these patients that may arise as no test can definitively identify the offending drug, and stopping these drugs can affect the outcome of the coronary event including stent thrombosis [4].


Clopidogrel is a recently developed thrombocyte inhibitor with fewer side effects, and is widely used in clinical practice, the occurrence of hematological and dermal side effects should be considered [5].


Studies have shown that amongst the various platelet glycoprotein II b /III a inhibitors that are available, abciximab has been found to have a higher incidence of thrombocytopaenia though the overall complication rates of bleeding are similar [6].


Abciximab, eptifibatide, and tirofiban are the three drugs commonly used to block platelet aggregation by binding glycoprotein IIb/IIIa. Results from large therapeutic trials have shown that all three agents induce thrombocytopenia in approximately 1% to 5% of cardiac patients [7].


Thrombocytopenia is typically rapid in onset and antibody mediated. Studies have shown that in vitro evidence suggests abciximab-induced thrombocytopenia is associated with antibodies directed to murine sequences within the chimeric anti-IIb/IIIa molecule [7].


In addition, abciximab, eptifibatide, and tirofiban also function as mixed agonist-antagonists in vivo, inducing neoepitopes within the glycoprotein IIb/IIIa receptor that may react with pre-existing or induced antibodies [7].


Screening for the development of these antibodies may reduce the incidence of thrombocytopenia associated with these agents, but it may limit their chronic usage.

from:
calicutmedicaljournal

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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trueblue
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Sorry you and Steve are having such an awful time, Bea. [Frown]

I hope you're getting some info you can use, here, and that things take a turn for the better soon.


My skin looks the same as Alison's. She may have stolen my arm. [Wink] I think I have both Babs and Bart but only have a mildly positive very old Babs macroti test.

The tiny red dots are increasing dramatically on Babs treatment. My platelet levels are completely normal.

I have a lot of tan spots that also just keep coming. The red ones stay red though.

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seibertneurolyme
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Thanks for all the wonderful info everyone.

Hubby has normal platelets also.

From what I have read I think the petachiae and/ or cherry angiomas are primarily caused by capillary problems.

Attending physician has hubby on 1 gram of IV Rocephin daily and has been continuing quinine at 325 mg two times daily. Wants to wait a couple of days to talk to his other docs and see if he stabilizes on current meds.

Looks like hubby will be in the hospital over the holiday weekend.

If the doc continues with current schedule then hubby will come off quinine after Saturday for next 10 days. If she stops the quinine I think that should give us a pretty good idea of whether Babesia is a major problem. Have discussed a trial of Rifampin, but doc wants to wait a couple of days before trying that.

A new major issue right now is trying to figure out why hubby is wasting magnesium. Will start a thread on that.

Bea Seibert

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AlisonP
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trueblue - you think with three arms I'd be able to get more housework done, but alas! [Big Grin]

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treepatrol
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up

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

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