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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » BARTONELLA-LIKE ORGANISMS BLO Dr B

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Author Topic: BARTONELLA-LIKE ORGANISMS BLO Dr B
treepatrol
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BARTONELLA-LIKE ORGANISMS
by Joseph Burrascano
It has been said that Bartonella is the most common of all tick-borne pathogens.


Indeed, there seems to be a fairly distinct clinical syndrome when this type of organism is present in the chronic Lyme patient. However, several aspects of this infection seem to indicate that this tick-associated strain of Bartonella is different from that described as "cat scratch disease".


For example, in patients who fit the clinical picture, standard Bartonella blood testing is commonly non-reactive. Furthermore, the usual Bartonella medications do not work for this- they suppress the symptoms but do not permanently clear them. For these reasons I like to refer to this as a "Bartonella-like organism" (BLO), rather than assume it is a more common species.


Indicators of BLO infection include symptoms involving the central nervous system that are out of proportion to the other systemic symptoms of chronic Lyme. There seems to be an increased irritability to the CMS, with agitation, anxiety, insomnia, and even seizures, plus symptoms of encephalitis, such as cognitive deficits and confusion.


Other key symptoms may include gastritis, lower abdominal pain (mesenteric adenitis), sore soles, especially in the AM, tender subcutaneous nodules along the extremities, and red rashes.


These rashes may have the appearance of red streaks like stretch marks that do not follow skin planes, spider veins, or red papular eruptions. Lymph nodes may be enlarged and the throat can be sore.


Because standard Bartonella testing, either by serology or PCR, may not pick up this BLO, the blood test is very insensitive. Therefore, the diagnosis is a clinical one, based on the above points.


Also, suspect infection with BLO in extensively treated Lyme patients who still are encephalitic, and who never had been treated with a significant course of specific treatment.


The drug of choice to treat BLO is levofloxacin (Levaquin). Levofloxacin is usually never used for Lyme or Babesia, so many patients who have tick-borne diseases, and who have been treated for them but remain ill, may in fact be infected with BLO.


Treatment consist of 500 mg daily (may be adjusted based on body weight) for at least one month. Treat for three months or longer in the more ill patient.


It has been suggested that levofloxacin may be more effective in treating this infection if a proton pump inhibitor is added in standard doses.


Another subtlety is that certain antibiotic combinations seem to inhibit the action of levofloxacin, while others seem to be neutral.

I advise against combining Levaquin with an erythromycin-like drug, as clinically such patients do poorly.


On the other hand, combinations with cephalosporins, penicillins and tetracyclines are okay. Alternatives to levofloxacin include rifampin, gentamicin and possibly streptomycin.


Levofloxacin is generally well tolerated, with almost no stomach upset. Very rarely, it can cause confusion and insomnia- this is usually temporary, and may be relieved by lowering the dose.


There is, however, one side effect that would require it to be stopped- it may cause a painful tendonitis, usually of the largest tendons. If this happens, then the levofloxacin must be stopped or tendon rupture may occur.


Unfortunately, levofloxacin and drugs in this family cannot be given to those under the age of 18, so other alternatives, such as azithromycin and/or rifampin, are used in children.

Incidentally, animal studies show that Bartonella may be transmitted across the placenta. No human studies have been done.


Movie Dr B on BLO this link not working so goto-.

Check out Lyme Disease Bacteria Video Clips!
Aetos Technologies has made available to the Lyme Disease Association certain videos which feature new imaging technology called CytoViva. Each one shows Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the bacterium that causes Lyme disease.

Click to see Bb in action: (these may take a few minutes to download)

Video1: Bb infecting human skin cultures
Video2: Bb "drilling" into skin cell nucleus (football shaped dark area)
Video3: Bb conjugating (entwined pair)
Video4: UV light killing Bb
Video5: White blood cells engulfing Bb


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2005 LDA/Columbia University 2005 Lyme & Other Tick-borne Diseases
The links below are video clips from the LDA/Columbia University medical conference, Lyme & Other Tick-Borne Diseases: Emerging Tick-Borne Diseases, 2005, held in Philadelphia. Brian Fallon, MD, Columbia University College of Physicians & Surgeons is the session chair providing introductions.

Like what you saw? A full set of (2) DVD's of the conference including these clips and the separate Bartonella DVD are available for purchase.

Ehrlichiosis - Gregory Storch, MD
Unique Dermstologic Manifestations of Tick-Borne Diseases - Martin Fried, MD
STARI - AKA Master's Disease - Ed Masters
Bartonella: A Clinicians's Viewpoint - Joseph Burrascano, MD

The two in bold are the links to use when you get there.

Heres link to LDA page where above links are at

[ 13. February 2008, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

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madge
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could bart be in the head around the back of the eyes,,,causing such pain for years..other than tired,dizzy, shakey ect, ect..can't read, watch tv, or any noise..light even from knight light hurts...started levaquin 2 wk ago...hope it will at lease help???

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madgen

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by madge:
could bart be in the head around the back of the eyes,,,causing such pain for years..other than tired,dizzy, shakey ect, ect..can't read, watch tv, or any noise..light even from knight light hurts...started levaquin 2 wk ago...hope it will at lease help???

Yes have you ever had any of this

rashes or bumps or pin prick red dots petechia?
or sore feet in the am?swollen lympth nodes?
bumps under skin? spider viens?

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nancyb
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Originally posted by treepatrol:
quote:
pin prick red dots petechia?
Do you have any links that I can read about these red dots and their connection to Bart?

My daughter's rashes were exactly that - pin prick red dots. She has been on amoxy since July and progressed really well but now she seems to be relapsing.

Thanks!

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The Canadian Lyme Disease Foundation www.canlyme.com

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by nancyb:
Originally posted by treepatrol:
quote:
pin prick red dots petechia?
Do you have any links that I can read about these red dots and their connection to Bart?

My daughter's rashes were exactly that - pin prick red dots. She has been on amoxy since July and progressed really well but now she seems to be relapsing.

Thanks!

rashes

Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever too.Too many Drugs can cause it also.
Rickettsia also causes that.Also listen to Dr B speach in movie and at the lyme disease assocition site dr freid

rtsp://ldarm.webcastcenter.com/lda/lda_fried2005.rm

rtsp://ldarm.webcastcenter.com/lda/lda_burrascano2005.rm

rtsp://ldarm.webcastcenter.com/lda/lda_storch2005.rm


Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petechia

A lady in conn i belive or maybe new york cant remember anyway her kids got scarlet fever last year.

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Pocono Lyme
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From personal experience only, bart treatment has given me the most improvements.

The rash I have, besides the stretch marks, is tiny acne-like looking. Easier to feel than to see at times. Feels rough when you run your hand over it.

Treatment for this has helped with cognition, dizziness for years (debilitating) is 90% better, balance issues improved, vision symptoms improving almost daily plus I can tolerate more stimuli now.
I no longer want to jump out of my skin when I hear a noise, go to a store, come in contact with fluorescent lights etc..

I first did Rifampin and Mino.
Now doing Levaquin with Tindamax and it seems as if it's doing cleanup. I hope.

From my own experience, this has caused me the most grief. Had I only known that years ago.

Thanks Tree for posting this.
I agree with Cavey. Most everyone should be treated for this despite testing.

--------------------
2 Corinthians 12:9-11


9 But he said to me, �My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ�s power may rest on me.

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treepatrol
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The decision to use alternative antibiotics should be based on the individual case, including a careful assessment of the patient's risk factors and personal preferences.

Patients managed in this way must be carefully selected and considered reliable for follow-up. Further controlled studies are needed to address the optimal antimicrobial agents for coinfections and the optimal duration of therapy.

Additional research is needed to determine which antibiotics work best for Bartonella, but fluoroquinolones, azithromycin,doxycycline and rifampin have good in vitro activity.

This has been said by Dr B of ILADS

Theres just no distinct answer for everyone.

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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treepatrol
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Check this out at bottom of post could this be Dr Bs BLO

Possible Dr B 's BLO

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merrygirl
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Why are spider veins related to Bartonella??

Thanks
Melissa

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by merrygirl:
Why are spider veins related to Bartonella??

Thanks
Melissa

If you listen to the movie its in ther but basicaly bartonella makes the body create new blood vessles thats why you see the stretch mark things also but not everyone gets the big marks.

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HamDune
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On the topic of the stretch marks and other rashes mentioned with BLO, has anyone in their own experience or from the experience of others seen that these rashes lessen and/or diminish while on successful treatment? This would be valuable as a mode of accessing whether the selected treatment is appropriate.

I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts or experiences on that.

Thanks.

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Clarissa
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I had those acne/papule-like bumps all over my back. It was horrible and I was ready to see the dermatolagist until I got my diagnosis for Bart and the biotoxin gene (the one where you cannot naturally rid your body of biotoxins).

I had to be on cholestyramine (NO ABX) for 2 1/2 mos just to clean up biotoxins and that's when my back completely cleared up.

I thought it was the Bart but it was the Cholestyramine that got rid of it...so now I must conclude that it was the biotoxins causing the back 'acne'.

Sorry to confuse the story but that was my experience.

On the other hand, I have this relentless pin-prick circle-lke thing on the inside of wrist that itches like hell. That did NOT go away with the cholestyramine but is slowly fading with my zith/rifampin combo for Bart.

Go and figure... [loco]

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AliG
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[kiss]

I had to copy rtsp://ldarm.webcastcenter.com/lda/lda_burrascano2005.rm
& paste into the real player browser, in order to view the video. I don't know why, but I'm sure glad I played around until I figured out how to view it!. This was awesome!!

I'll bet this is why LLMD told me he wants me back after IV. He probably sees this, but is protecting my tendons by Txing the Lyme first before going after it.

I think this could explain my rapid decline going from Doxy to Suprax & Doxy to Amox, although Suprax is a Cephalosporin (so???). When this happened, I didn't think it made any Bb sense that it happened so quickly.

I just went from Ceftriaxone to Cefdinir (another Cephalosporin) on Wednesday and it's not looking very good for me the past few days. [Frown] I must have something else at play here. [Roll Eyes] [shake]

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Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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AliG
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Is this where IDSA will step in & say "We told you so! It's BLO not "Chronic Lyme"? [Roll Eyes]

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Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by AliG:
Is this where IDSA will step in & say "We told you so! It's BLO not "Chronic Lyme"? [Roll Eyes]

I wouldnt doubt it. I think this is just one more ingreidient in the soup.

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oxygenbabe
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Why does he even think its bartonella if there's no evidence, no good test, can't be cultured
Obviously its some organism that responds to quinolones but who knows what

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
Why does he even think its bartonella if there's no evidence, no good test, can't be cultured
Obviously its some organism that responds to quinolones but who knows what

I think he said that because of its symptoms and what is being used to treat it its intracellular meds.

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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oxygenbabe
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Who is to say those are bartonella symptoms esp if everybody doesn't have that stretch mark rash.
I always marvel when people decide, because an abx helped, that it's this or that organism. Most of these abx are wide spectrum and could be treating any number of things maybe even common but mutated/resistant organisms.

They should be able to do a simple study and culture organisms from ticks (like Eva Sapi started to do) and find their abx sensitivities.

I don't know why there's all this speculation so late in the day, this is not directed at Dr B, but frankly, who even knows what mepron/zith is treating. Maybe babesia maybe something else.

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AliG
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From what I understood....
Dr. B was saying that the symptoms were "Bartonella-like", but different and that it DID NOT respond to the same ABX that Bartonella would, but responded to Levequin.

I believe that he also stated that it may NOT be a Bartonella but something else entirely, like another Borrelia. I believe he is calling it BLO for lack of current ability to identify the organism and the sx similarity to Bart.

[confused]

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oxygenbabe
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Someone here posted recently that he thought maybe tularemia was in the ticks.
Frankly that's what I think he's referring to.
Tularemia responds to quinolones.

Do a search in google "tularemia quinolones" and you'll see.

I don't believe there's a "bartonella like" organism per se.

But anyway what makes me mad is this has been around for thirty plus years and why can't they just do what Eva Sapi did and look in the tick gut, and then also culture those organisms commonly found for abx sensitivity?

Why do humans have to be guinea pigs and people on here often tell stories of years of the wrong abx treatment until they miraculously "hit" on the right one.

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lymebytes
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I think most interesting about this great presentation, was that Dr. B said that years before they were even aware of co-infections, they just kept treating the LD and patients got well. Theory, that getting LD under control can help boost the immune system enough to rid the body of the co-infections.

Makes me wonder if all these abx changes are necessary.

Being that this was video taped 3 years ago, I wonder if Dr. B has taken into consideration since the taping, the neurotoxicity of the quinolones.

The quinolones risk factors are becoming more evident. One could believe they were "cured" by Levaquin and 18 months later have toxicity reaction and believe it was an LD relapse, as toxicity of the drug is often misdiagnosed as LD (see fact sheet #13 at link below).

Since this class of drugs is proving more dangerous and more than just torn tendons, but brain damage and perm neuropathies up to 18 months after stopping the drug. I would love to hear if he still believes the benefit outweighs the risk.

Besides Rif & doxy, my (Ilads) LLMD uses Biaxin to kill Bart and it seems to have worked in me. But I believe my Bart is reoccurring (coming and going) unfortunately. A part of me wishes I'd never have seen this link here at Lymenet, but I guess it is best to make an informed decision: http://www.fluoroquinolones.org/

Now, Levaquin or any quinolone would be the last drug I would ever take, only as a last desperate choice, if even then.

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Keebler
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-

Question here.

In the 3rd paragraph, he states: " . . . There seems to be an increased irritability to the CMS, . . . ."

-

What is the CMS ?


-

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djf2005
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cns id bet...

[Smile]

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AliG
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I thought type-o as well. I read it as CNS, by context of subject.

That's some very unpleasant info about the fluroquinolones, Lymebytes. I'm really not happy to see that either.

I wonder if the patients who were cured have been followed up with since then to check for "relapses"/neuro damage. I wonder if that occurs when the magnesium issues & Lyme infecting the tendonocils has been addressed. It seems that, by Dr.B, addressing those issues takes down the risk factor for the tendonitis.

[confused]

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Pocono Lyme
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I have wondered about Tularemia myself.
I have seen where the Quinolones are a promising treatment.
An article I just read states tick transmission can occur, also biting flies and of course coming in contact with rabbit carcuses.

I have questioned this with my previous LLMD, but it was dismissed. I wondered as I had/have many of the symptoms of oculoglandular.

I initially had one eye constantly watering, a yellowish blister type thing on my eyeball, fevers, muscle pain, swollen nodes in my neck.

Levaquin is hitting me hard so hopefully it will knock it out before it knocks me out.

The article I read, from E Medicine, also mentioned the papular rash. hmm

I'm interested as you Oxygenbabe.

--------------------
2 Corinthians 12:9-11


9 But he said to me, �My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.� Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ�s power may rest on me.

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treepatrol
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Dr Fried I think thats right said he uses a proton pump with levaquin it take far less time on levaquin when using the proton pump and abx together.
I never had a problem while on levaquin UNTIL 3.5 months in I had soreness about the second month but didnt tear any tendons until 3.5 months.

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treepatrol
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Found this its BLO mentioned in a pdf in this post by djf2005

Its under conclusion in pdf.
Interesting???
In conclusion, this study provides new fundamental information regarding B. henselae and its relationship to Bartonella-like species. Furthermore, our findings confirm and expand upon previous results on the use of PCR-RFLP analysis for the detection and identification of B. henselae. With the primers and technique described, known Bartonella species and Bartonella- like isolates can be clearly differentiated. Finally, the PCR-RFLP technique has been applied successfully in evaluating isolates from bacteremic cats for B. henselae.

There it is again BLO

Pdf Link

Also learning phages link

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treepatrol
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Timacas link on Virus Testing could this be tied to the BLO

Also Terry K's thread

Thanks Truthfinder for heads up on Terry's virus stuff

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Truthfinder
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Welcome, Tree. [Smile]

Reading all of this.... I think I need to start looking for a Bart nosode, and probably a Babs nosode, too, for that matter. I'll probably have to get them from the U.K.

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Tracy
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treepatrol
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These things are building and swapping DNA biofilms in us.

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treepatrol
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Up

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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treepatrol
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up

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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map1131
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Thanks Treepatrol for bumping this up. If I read it back when it was originially started, I've forgotten this since. No I don't have any cognitive problems. Duh??????

Pam

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Myco
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I would say that BLO= Mycoplasma (could be any strain).

Think about it: Levaquin is the #1 drug of choice to treat Mycoplasma infections. Nothing else comes close.

We know Myco strains are loose in the population and are contagious.

A no brainer if you ask me.

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treepatrol
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I hope the levaquin gets it use a proton pump with it .And at the first sign of deep down pain along the bone when you stretch a leg or arm remmber and tell LLMD and also when and if that starts never lift anything heavey or move to fast or go up and down steps fast I made the mistake and tore 2 tendons on levaquin. Also since you have been like me on lots of abx's for a lpong time you should get some b12 shots they really really helped me with the deep down everday aching its all gone now.

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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just don
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Thanks for bumping THIS most interesting thread up!!

I have a rather silly question,,but never the less,,,

Can this BLO cause arthritis all on its own?? Either osteo or rhemi arthritis??

How about same question on Tularemia!!??

Is there any evidence that you can have BLO and NOT lyme?? Okay I will quit there with questions,,,have TONS but best kept to myself for NOW!!!while remaining--just don--

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just don

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sixgoofykids
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I lift weights and did continue throughout my treatment with Levaquin, but I did not do lifting I didn't normally do. You do want to watch for tendon pain ... but what you're describing now sounds like a herx. I had some herxing pains that were new on Levaquin and I did have the miraculous recovery Dr. B mentions.

I've read that supplementing magnesium during Levaquin treatment can help prevent tendon problems.

BTW, I felt bad the first six weeks on it .... then I saw steady improvement.

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Myco
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sixgoofykids,

How long did you stay on the Levaquin?

Are you fully recovered now?

What other abx did you use.

Thanks!

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treepatrol
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B12 shots ordered by Dr. If your flora is in good shape I would take the sublingual GNC sells it take 1000mcg to start thats what is recomended also I would deffinatley take magnesium the best abosorbed kind.

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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treepatrol
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Up for another way to access BLO links

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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AliG
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Instructions for viewing Dr.B's presentation on "BLO":

copy the following link:

rtsp://ldarm.webcastcenter.com/lda/lda_burrascano2005.rm

and paste it into the address bar of the browser or your "real player" or "quicktime player".

You can also just highlight the rtsp-link and then click & drag it to the address bar.


IMO, this is a MUST SEE!
Thanks again for posting it, Tree! [group hug]


[hi]
Ali

[ 19. February 2008, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]

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Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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treepatrol
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See responce on first page I answered the link problem.

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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AliG
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Glad you got it covered! [Big Grin]

Those are some other neat links you posted, as well.

Thanks for them too!

[hi]

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Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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treepatrol
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up [hi]

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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AliG
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I'm taking a copy of the video, Dr.B's guidelines (referring to "BLO" on p23) and some additional info from J.S.MD (cited by Tosho's thread) to LL?IDMD today.


I'll let you know if I get anywhere. [Wink]

Thanks again [group hug] and wish me luck!! [hi]

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Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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AliG
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I've got a RX for a bunch more labs. I'm guessing some more "rule-outs" and also testing Magnesium. I'm to have the labs drawn before starting the Rx for LEVAQUIN!

I brought the copy of Dr.B's guidelines & showed him the info on p.23 regarding the BLO. He didn't really want to see the video but, having studied it myself, I was able to plead my case (responses to Tx, screwy temps and all!) I certainly couldn't have done that without you! [kiss]

I really hope this makes a difference, I'm SO tired of the rapid relapse BS!

[hi]

One scary thought I just had....
If Bb is still there, Levaquin won't touch it. It IS slow to replicate though, so maybe still OK for the short-term. [Roll Eyes]

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DakotasMom01
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Here are some old threads on Brucella and Bart.They are very informative and may help someone.Hope you don't mind my adding them to your BLO post, Tree.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=014128

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=014046


{edited to repair addies}

[ 26. February 2008, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: DakotasMom01 ]

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Take Care,
DakotasMom01

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treepatrol
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For those of you with treatment failures..consider Brucellosis

Neurobrucellosis--- long/ technical

fixed

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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treepatrol
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up

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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treepatrol
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up for newbies

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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AliG
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bumping up to answer questions [Smile]

Thanks again tree, for starting this excellent thread! [group hug]

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Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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