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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » DNP and other forms of intracellular hyperthermia (ICHT)

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Author Topic: DNP and other forms of intracellular hyperthermia (ICHT)
Marnie
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http://www.nature.com/emboj/journal/v17/n12/full/7591038a.html

"When the ATP level drops,

the intracellular pH will inevitably also drop.

Addition of glucose to ATP-compromised cells causes an *increase in the ATP level*.

Subsequently,

a high intracellular pH is recovered via the stimulation of proton efflux by the plasma membrane H+-ATPase."

When we use a compound like DNP (in a class with cyanide -yikes!) to trigger glycolysis to be speeded up, the extra glucose comes from fat storage and gluconeogenesis kicks in = rapid weight loss.

However, gluconeogenesis requires a lot of energy to happen (don't we have to exercise a LOT to lose fat?).

When gluconeogenesis is speeded up, we need a lot more nutrients to help us make that glucose.

This is why marathon runners bulk-up. It used to be carbohydrates they bulked-up on, but guess what they bulk up on now...

Ca and Mg!

If we do not REPLACE those electrolytes and we speed up glycolysis via DNP, this could indeed impact the heart...negatively.

These electrolytes MUST BE REPLACED.

How important is hyperthermia (raising the body's temperature)?

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/633.pdf =

Hyperthermia is a potential antitumor modality which is currently the subject of extensive investigation.

Following exposure to heat, virtually every phase of metabolism becomes disrupted.

No clear concensus exists, however, as to the primary metabolic events associated with thermal cell kill.

Studies have demonstrated that respiration, anaerobic glycolysis, and DNA, RNA,
and protein synthesis are inhibited at temperatures above 42 degrees" (107.6 F)

But what if we just raise the temperature a "tad" i.e., back to normal?

Does the increase in extracellular pH (becoming more alkaline) impact the intracellular pH level (which is too low) which then increases the amt. of hydrogen INSIDE the cells to drive ATP synthase ("water wheel pump" - hydrogen driven)?

Many of our cells ARE "hydrogen powered".

An answer, perhaps:

If we raise the body's temperature, this might happen:

The autodissociation of water is endothermic as it involved bond breaking.
H2O --> H+ + OH-

Hence when you increase the temperature, equilibrium will shift to the right and formed more H+ and OH-"

With Bb in the cytoplasm of a cell, I think it is impacting ATP synthase (helps us to make ATP) which is located in the membrane of the mitochondria (as well as the cell membranes).

Part of this mitochondrial ATP synthase sorts protrudes into the cytoplasm. Since ATP is compared to a water wheel (hydrogen powered?), the drop in hydrogen inside the cell could impact the function of the "wheel" which drives the mitochondria's ability to make ATP.

Follow?

[ 04-24-2009, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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Marnie
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Up for all you cool gals and guys!
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efsd25
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Marnie,
That is interesting, that may be what is happening during DNP treatments. Certainly it worked for some! Unfortunately no Dr. will touch DNP after what happened to Dr.Bachynsky.

It is a sad thing.
Ernie

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Marnie
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DNP didn't work...other doctors in the U.S. tried it - secretly.

I know someone(s)...

Infrared works a different way.

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Abxnomore
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Marnie, you are incorrect. efsd25 is right it did work for some. I have spoken to an LLMD who had two patients who did it with curative results back in 2003.
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tcw
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I would like to see more hard data on DNP treatment - I do not see much evidence that it could be promising. It does not help dogs much, they typically run a body temp near the upper range of tolerable for a human, but still suffer with Lyme.

In this study http://www.jneuroinflammation.com/content/5/1/40 in vitro cultures were shocked with temps of 45C to induce L form transformations, and even then viable spirochetal forms were recovered after reculturing in ideal conditions.

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Abxnomore
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There is none. No one is the states has touched the stuff since the l930's when it was an over the counter product. It's not FDA approved and only university research centers can get permission to use it, with lots of approvals and red tape I am sure.

And, if any university research center is looking into it I assure you they are looking at it for cancer, not lyme.

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Marnie
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I PERSONALLY know someone for whom DNP did NOT work...and it WAS DNP.

This is not from "second hand information" from ANYONE.

And neither did insulin "shock" cure that person.

L forms (= CWD = cell wall deficient) happen at 40 degrees C also.

Yea, the cell wall is kapoot, but Bb can rebuild it if step #2 doesn't kick in to eliminate the CWD forms.

40 degrees C = 104 degrees Fahrenheit.

45 degrees C = 113 degrees Fahrenheit. We are dead long before that.

We need to supply the infected cell with something Bb does NOT want in there.

Calcium.

Do NOT allow the export of Ca.

Close the TRPM8 channel. Briefly. I've posted the animation of that happening. It is from a neuro website.

PKC

P = protein
K = kinase = phosphate transfer
C = calcium activated

Bb has a PKC INHIBITOR.

It is preventing calcium activated phosphate transfers (2). Bb is dephosphorylizing serine i.e., REMOVING phosphate from 2 serines and using these phosphates for itself.

As I understand it.

Dogs can be protected from GETTING lyme via Frontline which blocks the chloride channels (GABA A and GABA C...allowing only GABA B to work) Fast inhibition is "off", only slow inhibition is "on".

GABA comes FROM glutamate which Bb metabolizes - breaks down (along with alanine).

Bb needs glutamate and Na...absolutely.

Glutamate is a chemoattractant for Bb.

Bb's toxin prevents acetylcholine release.

Glutamate and acetylcholine are released simultaneously.

Forget "hydroxycut" and/or CO also and ethanol.

Hydroxycut will destroy your liver (in the news today) and Bb is quite capable of handling CO...we aren't (as much).

Yes, we do indeed make CO...VERY briefly.

"O" is constantly on the look out for SOMETHING to attach to. By "itself" is very very dangerous.

WHO was cured in 2003?

http://www.lymetreatment.com/About_the_author.html

See the "However, complications..."

BTW..Hg is not the ONLY metal that is problematic.

So is Al. Which is in high levels of the brains of those with Alzheimer's.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=737258

Lead (the heavy metal)...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/02/health/webmd/main3668022.shtml

And guess what "experts" now are suggesting as a treatment for anthrax...

If you said a lead compd., you're right.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/biology-news/Anthrax-inhibitors-identified-by-Burnham-team-1033-1/

Unbelievable!

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Abxnomore
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And I personally know of two people for whom it worked . So where does that get us? If you are talking about treatment in the U.S. using DNP and insulin potentiated therapy, I know of no one for whom that treatment worked and the entire practice was a scam. That doctor was not well skilled in how to use it. The key when using DNP is knowing what you are doing.

There is basically one man in the entire world who knows what he is doing when it comes to using DNP.

And, as stated it did not work for all and there are many reasons for that. But for the two I know of for whom it worked, all issues where addressed by the patients, heavy metals, candida, adrenals, detoxification, thyroid, etc. They followed a excellent integrative protocol thought out their illness. Lots of magnesium, too.

Those individuals are long off this forum since 2002 and living full lives. They were treated in Italy. YES it did work for some as efsd25 said. He was there, you were not. Have you spoken with him? Don't listen to hear say. Talk to those who actually reclaimed their life by way of the treatment.

DNP can cure lyme. It is a heat sensitive bacteria but as you well know people infected with lyme often have a lot more than just lyme going on especially if they have been sick for

many years. Even if you eradicated the lyme there would still be plenty of unaddressed stuff left to keep a person ill.

HAVE YOU EMAILED THAT RELAPSED PERSON TO SEE HOW HE IS DOING TODAY??? From what I can tell that was written quite some time ago.

Also, I am not a scientist. All of your posts mean absolutely nothing to me. I cannot comprehend any thing you write but appreciate your fine work and effort for those who can.

[ 05-02-2009, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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Marnie
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I hope the "one man in the entire world who knows what he is doing when it comes to using DNP" is not

NB.

http://letterofapology.com/category/wire-fraud/

Scroll down to "Florida"

I wrote to NB years ago and warned him that by speeding up glycolysis he was going to severely impact the electrolytes and this could be disasterous.

He responded to my e-mail and said,

"You could be right."

Unfortunately, I was and someone died.

He was using very sick patients to experiment on while pocketing a LOT of money for that treatment.

$20,000.

Why didn't those people come back to this forum and report that it did work for them?

Many "Rifers" have.

I see you (Abxnomore) joined this board this year. It takes a LONG time and a LOT of reading to even begin to comprehend/understand/appreciate what this complex pathogen is doing to us.

Know thy enemy. We need to understand Bb and how it is "fooling" our body (first, by cloaking itself in the SALP 15 protein)...

Re: Hg:

http://www.esrnexus.com/advsearch.aspx?txtAuthor=Stegnar

When there (above link)...scroll down to "selenium" - use your edit key to find it.

BTW...

Apparently Hg impacts our immunoglobulins (IgG1 and IgE - they are increased):

http://www.ihop-net.org/UniPub/iHOP/pm/11843456.html?nr=10&pmid=16634805

Apparently Hg is normally excreted in BILE:

http://tiny.cc/FV0DK

Does this mean our body is USING/retaining Hg as a way to increase our immunoglobulins?

Food for thought.

[ 05-03-2009, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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Abxnomore
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I've read and researched, believe me. I understand this pathogen and all those that come along with it well enough.

IV Electrolyte replacement was given all during the treatment as confirmed by those I have tracked down who took the treatment and those who were cured. I was made aware of one woman who was cured. DNP did work.

The link to the individual you use as evidence to support your opinion is doing quite fine and IS Lyme free and CURED, as well. The website is long out of date and it appears it was other residual

issues that caused him to think he was relapsing. And from what I have been able to ascertain there is one other possibly two doing quite well.

http://www.lymetreatment.com/About_the_author.html

Deaths occur every day from lyme disease and wasn't it just last week we sadly lost one on this forum. The disease slowly eats away at you and

the treatment is very harsh on the system. I learned there were several who did ICHT twice and they didn't die. I learned there were many who, in fact,

did it and did not die nor did they have any negative side affects from the treatment. Sad tragedies like this happen in medical facilities on a daily basis, in large numbers.

From all those I have been in contact with who did the treatment in Italy all reported that NB had a brilliant scientific and medical mind. Electrolytes were given on a on going basis.

I'm interested in who the treatment helped and I have learned first hand that there are those that it did. DNP did work for some as efsd25, who did the treatment himself, pointed out above.

As I understand it, the majority of those who did ICHT did come back to report their experiences rather extensively but that was many years ago and those posts are no longer available.

$20,000 is a drop in the bucket for a two week hospital stay....get real.

I'm not interested in his personal affairs, only whether or not it worked for some and I know for a fact that it did based on my research and speaking to those I know.

[ 06-01-2009, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]

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seekhelp
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Marnie, I'm sorry but I can't comprehend most of what you write, but I have a question. I had a 24 hr urine test at Cleveland Clinic which was very detailed. Ironically, it showed one amino acid excreted in a high quantity: ALANINE. Mean anything?
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JRWagner
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To compare a fully staffed hospital with the "Clinic" in Italy is folly. If the facility in Italy WAS a real hospital, the American MD would not have died. The response to his agonizing death was criminal...good reason to skewer NB over hot coals. This person could have been saved.

Second, MORE than one person died in Europe...in Switzerland people died...that is why NB moved his "operation" to Italy...very lax regulations...no more...

There were people (Kathy)who came back to the US with major vision problems, etc.

To say that there were no major side-effects is not to know the facts. One only has to find the "Facilitator" who promoted this on NB's behalf...oops, she is no where to be found...how surprising!!!!

We who experienced the ebb and flow of this treatment (posting since Jan 2009 does not make one well informed on the subject matter...much has been discussed in the past) knew that NB was a con artist, more interested in making money that anything else...thus his weight loss clinics here in the US, where he fraudulently billed insurance companies and medicaid/medicare for treatments he did not provide.

NB is where he belongs.

Also, to compare death from Lyme Disease...itself very controversial with LLMD's (I know of four, all ILADS members who contest death directly caused by Lyme)with death by DNP...itself a horrible, very excruciating experience described in detail here years ago (an American MD was the victim), is ridiculous.

MANY bodybuilders used DNP in the US and MANY have also died...the last two, as I recall, were two teens from Long Island. I guess this is normal for bodybuilding?

Ernie...did you not once state that you were still having Lyme symptoms, etc., after you came back, or, forgive me, does my mind fail me?
(Not an attack on you buddy...just the idea that DNP is safe and works...).

With the knowledge we now have, anyone who dares to try DNP is taking a huge chance with his or her life.

Marnie...I remember when you warned NB about the electrolyte issue...if he was such a knowledgeable MD, why did he not know this basic bit of cell biology/metabolism himself?

Folks...there is NO magic pill. (Unfortunately)
I do not want to see any more deaths from dangerous treatments aimed at desperate patients.

Does the Bionic 880 work? Perhaps...at least one does not put their life on the line.

STAY SAFE...and STAY ALIVE...you will beat Lyme...it might take many years, but you WILL win without resorting to dangerous treatments.

Peace, Love and Wellness,

JRW

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aklnwlf
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Darn, I wish I could understand this a little bit better.

In conjunction with orals I did 'fever bath' treatments at a holistic health institute.

They simulated a fever by increasing my body temp to 104 for about 15-20 minutes by a hot bath.

It's a very old remedy for syphilis.

Naturally, it's dangerous and had to be medically supervised.

Is this similar to what you're talking about?

I had the worst herx reaction the first time this was done.

All the IV and orals I took did nothing compared to this judging by the herx.

Course the herx was severe and I had the worst neck and head pain ever!

Slept all that day and still had a fever the next day.

Anyways, I'm curious if this in conjunction with the magic 5 plus magnesium might be the ticket.

--------------------
Do not take this as medical advice. This comment is based on opinion and personal experience only.

Alaska Lone Wolf

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efsd25
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JRWagner,
Yes, you are correct ICHT did not work for me. Felt good for about 3 weeks, then back to the pre-ICHT state.

However, I do not begruge NB, I think he belives in the treatment and was truly trying to help. Not to mention that he was successful with some people. Monitoring and testing was very good while I was being treated.


It was my decision, my risk, my responsiblity...that is what freedom is all about(in my opinion). :-)

Bottom line for me is that chemicals and antibiotics we are taking are not destroying the root of the problem.....which are the biofilm bacterial colonies.

The dentistry community has been aware and fighting biofilms for years. Just Google dental biofims + gum disease. This is why antibiotics cannot cure gum disease!!

So much for the rant

Like JR said..."Folks...there is NO magic pill",
but that doesn't mean you can't have a full life...Have climbed both Kilimanjaro and Mt. Rainier with Lyme. Exercise is the secret weapon!

P.S. the engineering community have found that AC EM fields can help break down biofilms.

Ernie

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Abxnomore
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I hate to beat a dead horse because that's what this issue is. The treatment is no longer available and has not been for a very long time.

However, based on my research and tracking down some that did ICHT it is clear to me that ICHT DID WORK FOR SOME , because they have informed me that it has.

Also, JR WAGNER, your information about Kathy Boss is incorrect. As I have learned thru my searching, Kathy Boss took the treatment because she was rapidly losing her eyesight and went to Italy in a wheelchair. She left Italy after the treatment with her eye sight restored and walking. How she is doing now I cannot say but heard from others that she was fine and leading a full life for several years after treatment.

I have found no evidence of people suffering from "major vision problems" nor have I found evidence of any one suffering any major side effects from the treatment, even those who did not get well.

My research shows that everyone who took the treatment knew that ICHT was an experimental treatment and knew that it did not have a long track record and knew the results were mixed, not impressive. And except for the one Lyme tragedy that you pointed out, I can find no complaints from any patients that they were not treated well or feared for their safety.

In fact, I've been told that at least ten or so patients stayed on after the tragic death of the one Lyme patient and continued eight or nine more days of treatment. That would imply to me that they felt safe and confident with the treatment and facilities.

Bringing up cancer patients from Switzerland, who often resort to alternative treatments during their last stages of life when no other mainstream options are left, sheds no light on whether DNP cured anyone of Lyme Disease.

But who would know better than someone who actually took the treatment?

However, I do not begruge NB, I think he belives in the treatment and was truly trying to help. Not to mention that he was successful with some people. Monitoring and testing was very good while I was being treated. It was my decision, my risk, my responsiblity...that is what freedom is all about(in my opinion). :-)

The question that was raised was did DNP work. If we stay focused on that issue, it would seem as pointed out above from one who was around at the time and ACTUALLY did the treatment and from my investigation that it did work for some, difinitely three and possible four Lyme patients.

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