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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Should we all be using EDTA for biofilms?

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Author Topic: Should we all be using EDTA for biofilms?
CD57
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I was just reading Tincup's post about the ILADs conference notes saying biofilms are a huge reason that we are not getting better.

I believe this. I don't know what organism/s have it but I believe its there.

There has been talk of EDTA w/ enzymes to break these up. Can we hear from people who take these?

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GiGi
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go to

http://www.klinghardtneurobiology.com/AmyDerksenART3presentation.pdf

Dr.K. Uses also Klaire Labs "Interfase" for biofilm breakup.

Detoxamin is not suitable for all. Some cannot tolerate, some benefit. Detoxamin works mostly on lead, rather than mercury.

Destroxin, a zeolite type, works well as a binder.

Learn to energy test or get tested. That is the only safe way to use any product.

Take care.

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SForsgren
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As I understand, the work that was done to evaluate EDTA as a biofilm treatment showed that it was largely ineffective and disappointing.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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CD57
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I believe that Dr F in AZ is using EDTA with nattokinase to bust up biofilms.
I recently tested positive for a staph (MARCONS) infection in my nose and the dr sent me to a compounding pharmacy for a spray made up of gentamicin, EDTA and something else. I talked to the pharmacist for a long time about it and he said that the EDTA breaks up the biofilms around the staph and that they are using it in hospitals on skin wounds now.

What studies do you have Scott? If EDTA doesn't work then what does?

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Amelia
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GiGi- thank you for the information from Dr. K.

I just read and have had no one be able to answer

why I have these red little pin size dots on my

torso- Babs. The information is invaluable.

Anyone using Interfase successfully? I have been

taking 1 teaspoon of apple cider vinegar 3 times

per day for the last week as suggested by a girl

at whole foods. It does seem to make me feel

better- she talked of helping your body to become

more alkaline. I didn't know it was a biofilm

buster too.

Thanks again-

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canefan17
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apple cider vinegar a biofilm buster?
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pj1954
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plaquinil is for stripping bio films and so is lumbrokinase. plaquinil also keeps the abx in your system longer so it cam kill more ketes.
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Buster
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Plaquinil
Boluoke (spelling?)
Heparin
Xylitol
EDTA

These are all the things I know of that help with biofilm... heparin helps mostly with fibrin though.

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CD57
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Why/how is Plaquenil a biofilm buster?
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riverpatrol
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Based on the horrendous herx I had after increasing dosage, I am pretty positive that wobenzym is a biofilm buster. Worst herx I have had in 2 1/2 years of tx.
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Haley
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I'd like to know more on Plaquinil also. Is this proven that it breaks up the bofilms or cysts? Has there been research on this?
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micul
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Plaquenil does not dissolve biofilms. It is a mild csyt buster at best, and can be some what effective against babesia/protozoa/malaria species. It's main purpose is to increase the ph in the blood (less acidic) which is suppose to help other meds like levaquin, biaxin, and zithromax be more effective.It also suppresses the immune system and should only be used in combo with abx.

Yes, biofilms are a big reason why so many here cannot get well. Yet most people here will not stop taking the large daily doses of magnesium and other supplements that biofilms depend on, and which also help the bacteria to become ever more resistant to the abx.

--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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dmbfan
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Though I;m not using it now b/c of the humaworm protocol, I have been on and will begin the following regimen

serrapeptase and lumbrokinase taken with EDTA 1 hour beforee eating and abx. Then abx, then charcoal later in the day.

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micul
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quote:
one researcher has found magnesium is in biofilm. But that does not necessarily mean that magnesium we take to make up for the stolen magnesium makes biofilm any stronger.

Ya think? Isn't that like saying that calcium is in our bones, but it doesn't make them any stronger?

Biofilms use a variety of minerals and nutrients to survive and build their defensive homes...magnesuium seems to be the main culprit IMO, which my own experience has proven to be true.

When people refer to biofilms, they can be talking about a film or coating around each individual bacteria that protects it, or they can be refering to a biofilm matrix or cell community that keeps the cells that it is harboring safe from abx and the hosts immune system.
quote:

I'd like to find out how to give my cells what they require and prevent the biofilm or spirochetes from taking it - or disengage their actions.

It's really pretty easy. All you have to do is attack and destroy them. If you don't do this, then they will continue to steal what they need from you as they continue to spread through out your body. Your body doesn't really require that much mag once you destroy the theifs. I am proof of that. Does any healthy person you know need large doses of mag each day in order to function?

I have to agree that mag is very depleted in most lymies....I would say even in every single case. So isn't that proof that the bugs need it the most....whether it is for biofilm production or just to proliferate? We know that Bb don't need it because they use manganese, but Bb might still use it for their own biofilms....no one knows for sure right now about that, but mag is huge for Bart, Babs, and many other bacteria.

quote:


I simply cannot do without added magnesium, though. Without it, my life would be one constant seizure.

That's because you are trying to function without an effective protocol. You can't win this battle without destroying the enemy. If you try to stay afloat with supplements and ineffective herbs or methods like rife, ozone, or infrared, then you will lose the battle eventually. Sure, it may buy you some time, but the bugs will keep getting stronger, and you will keep getting weaker.
quote:

Dr. B still says that magnesium is a required supplement.

He's not God you know. At least he is acknowledging that biofilms are a big problem....he still believes that mag and supps are important because he has seen a lot of imrovement from them in his patients over the years.

But I think that that improvement comes at a price as far as supplements are concerned. It's a catch 22...yes they do help....but they do help the bugs just as much, and will keep them from being destroyed in the long run.

--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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Pinelady
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I think it may be possible to slow down the Mag if you do the B12. For future reference in case.

--------------------
Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region
unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND
IgM neg pos
31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 +
DX:Neuroborreliosis

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Amanda
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About the only enzyme supplement that I haven't tried is interfase or EDTA.

I have tried wobenzyme, medizyme, serropeptase, nattokinase, lumbrokinase, and I haven't gotten any better with these.

--------------------
"few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain

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CD57
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I think the idea is to use the systemic enzyme WITH the EDTA.
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Littlesprout
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I couldn't find any info re: plaq and biofilms but I can find info re: EDTA and bioflims. I have started using Detoxamin 3x per wk was too much, I take it either 1 or 2x per wk. I think it is helping some. I think this may be the missing link
I have been on plaq for yrs didn't do much for biofilms I feel but will continue with it for DR4 gene

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landerss
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Micul, I'd love to hear more about your recommendation to avoid supplements/herbs during antibiotic treatment...would you recommend avoiding ALL mineral supplements because of biofilms? Even zinc (I'm treating KPU)?

Also, for those of you taking EDTA with your enzymes, how much EDTA do you take? I've been popping one 500mg cap of CaEDTA occasionally with lumbro, but I'm not sure it's enough.

Thanks!

--------------------
Increasingly ill over past 10 yrs; treating since October '08.

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springshowers
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Micul is right and echos what my doctor and dotors say and what i agree and believe in too.

Epson salt baths are even a no no.. due to the pure magnesium... it is..

Just use sea salt so it is kept to a minimum

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landerss
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So, springshowers, do you mean to just avoid *magnesium* - or ALL minerals (and other supplements, as Micul seemingly suggests)?

Thanks!

--------------------
Increasingly ill over past 10 yrs; treating since October '08.

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Blackstone
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In most medical practices, the idea of attempting to "starve out" pathogens is shown to be ineffective. Calcium, magnesium and more are base nutrients that many organisms need - there's no surprise they could be found in Bb, other pathogens, and the biofilms they create. Lets face it, the bacteria need a LOT less of these minerals than a person does. It will become increasingly detrimental to our health to subtract vital nutrients in the hopes that the infection will "go" before we do.

What Micul is correct about is that we can't just supplement either, but rather need to mount effective offensives against pathogens making us ill. I would worry less about the magnesium in the biofilms than I would finding effective ways to break down biofilm itself, instead.

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micul
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quote:
In most medical practices, the idea of attempting to "starve out" pathogens is shown to be ineffective. It will become increasingly detrimental to our health to subtract vital nutrients in the hopes that the infection will "go" before we do.
One can get all the nutrients that one needs from eating a good diet. Of course you can't starve them to death, I'm not even suggesting that....just don't give them tons of the things that they are stealing from your body in order to proliferate. I don't think that there is a problem with micro nutrient supplementation to a point, like taking some colloidal minerals in small amounts, but micrograms is a far cry from hundreds of milligrams.

The pathogens will always be able to get small amounts of nutrients from us through food...you could never stop that except by killing them, and that's the idea. Let them have access to the tiny micronutrients while you are taking them out with a good abx protocol....just don't heap coals on the fire by taking such massive amounts as has become the practice in Lyme land.

I think that everyone would agree that in order to get rid of yeast or Candida you must stop eating sugar. You can take all the Diflucan that you can tolerate, but if you don't stop eating the carbs and sweets that these infections thrive on, you won't be successfull in getting rid of them. Sure, you will be able to feel like you have won the battle as long as you continue on the Diflucan, but the same problems will be back shortly after you stop taking it, and the yeast/Candida will have grown more resistant to the Diflucan during this time, which will make it even harder to get rid of later.

I believe that the same principle applies with these bacterial infections. This is what I have seen happening with Dr B's patients over the years. The reason that he has had such good success while still using a lot of supplements IMO is because of the high dose and multi drug combo's that he used. A lot of his patients would be doing great, but then would start to have problems again at some point after stopping Tx. And as a result of the years of high dose supps, the infections would be even more resistant and harder to get rid of.

So let me say it one more time......this is not a plan to starve them out. It's a plan to stop feeding them tons of the vitamins and minerals that they love and need in order to grow stronger and more resistant to abx and your immune system, while attacking them with high dose multi drug combo's that will destroy them. You may not feel as good in the beginning as you would if you were taking the supps, but you will be much better off in the long run.

--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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springshowers
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I was just reading an article and it said..

Before treating lyme and trying to kill the bacteria will abx that you should FIRST concentrate on breaking down the biofilms in the blood.

Now it says that because it says if you dont and you just jump into ABX then the infections will create more and stronger biofilms in order to protect themselves and then it becomes harder to treat.

Makes sense. For most of us how have already been using ABX.. i guess its too late.

But if I ever take a break I will be remembering this and continue to work on those biofilms... and also this might be why pulsing works well for some. You can kinda trick those guys into not developing a protection plan so fast.

The article says it only takes like 3 days for them to start creating this biofilm and also to start digging deeper into hiding etc.

sorry> I forgot to save the link.. for it..

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Blackstone
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While an interesting theory, I don't recall much evidence to suggest that additional supplementation allows the pathogens to thrive better than they would without the patient taking said supplements. In short, there's only so much "food" these pathogens need to do what they do. Providing excessive amounts of it, especially considering the many factors involved in how much of it is actually available to the pathogen, does not increase their ability to thrive.

In regards to your candida example, I really don't think it is so simple. I've known healthy patients who have a bout with intestinal or vaginal yeast and are problem-free after a course of diflucan. I've also spoken with several lyme patients who had thrush induced via their antibiotics, and after proper antifungal treatment the situation resolved itself without a change of diet. While I agree that in some cases protracted fungal issues can benefit from a change diet, it is not always necessary in all patients; the main factor at hand is the administration of antifungals.

Perhaps I've missed something, but I've just not seen the evidence that pathogen virility is directly proportional to nutrients available without limit.

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micul
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quote:
In short, there's only so much "food" these pathogens need to do what they do. Providing excessive amounts of it, especially considering the many factors involved in how much of it is actually available to the pathogen, does not increase their ability to thrive.
That may be your opinion, but I don't believe that there is any conclusive evidence that will support it. As usual, there will always be differences of opinions even among the so called experts.

My personal experience tells me otherwise....that even though my body is only able to utilize a certain amount of nutrients at a time, the pathogens are not as limited. As they become greater in numbers, so does their ability to utilize large amounts of vitamins and minerals. A case in point would be through Epson salt baths. Large amounts of magnesium can be absorbed through the skin and made readily available to them. There have been many testimonies over the years attesting to the almost instantaneous ill effects of these baths. What is actually happening to them is debatable, but it is quite possible that it is the result of the pathogens getting a large dose of what they love...

Now as far as the yeast goes....of course healthy people can recover quite easily from a minor fungal infection. But would you think that these healthy individulas would still be able to recover if they were to add a box of Crispy Creme doughnuts to their diet each day of the Diflucan protocol? According to your theory, it shouldn't make any difference because the fungus can only utilize a certain amount of sugar. I believe that the same principle applies to taking these large amounts of supplements.

--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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seekhelp
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There are so many theories on Lymenet. We must have the greatest collection of researchers ever on a single forum! [Smile] It's so extensive, sometimes I think a bunch of sick people could easily combine research and sell a book here.
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seibertneurolyme
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micul,

You need to remember that epsom salts is composed of 2 ingredients -- magnesium and sulphate. People could just as easily be reacting to the sulphur which they are often deficient in instead of the magnesium.

Docs used to think that people with kidney stones should avoid calcium. In reality those people are often deficient in magnesium and B6. It is an imbalance in magnesium and calcium that causes the calcium to be pulled out of the bones to form kidney stones. Maybe something similar is happening with biofilms? The body tries really hard to keep elctrolytes in balance.

Taking megadoses of one vitamin or nutrient can impact others. For example, most people know to supplement with a B complex or folic acid if they are taking B12. Seems like a lot of people forget to also take calcium if they take magnesium.

Bea Seibert

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micul
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quote:
You need to remember that epsom salts is composed of 2 ingredients -- magnesium and sulphate. People could just as easily be reacting to the sulphur which they are often deficient in instead of the magnesium.

Sulphur sensitivity is a possibility, but I doubt that it is true for all cases...myself being one. I had started using Epsom salts when I had first become ill and didn't know what was going on for sure. At the time, I had been making some progress and getting stronger, but then started to decline from the Epsom salts. I don't have any problem with sulphur whatsoever, and I have always used a lot of garlic supplement....even to this day.

As I said before, what is actually happening from the Epsom salts is debatable. Some experts will claim that the bad reactions are purely detox side effects; yet the same people can use sauna therapy without a hitch. Anyways, Epsom salts are only a case in point. I wasn't trying to prove anything to any body.

But now that you got me going, let me point out another interesting fact. This twitching Sx that most of us Lymies have experienced is another good example IMO. It seems pretty clear to me that it is directly related to low mag levels. So why is it that pretty much everyone continues to have this Sx to some degree, even though they take large doses of mag? Even the people that claim to be off of abx and doing well continue to have problems with this Sx. Yes, it does get better for some when they are on a good abx protocol, but most can't seem to get rid of it completely.

I use to take mag via slow push IV 3 x's a week, as well as oral mag through tablets and electrolytes. I did this religously for two years, yet the twitching never completely dissappeared. But after six months of stopping all mag, calcium, and other supps, it has been completely gone.

The big reason that I made the switch was because I could tell that the mag was making my co-infections resistant to the meds rather quickly. This is what I believe is happening to your husband and many others here that can't seem to find any drug combo that will work any more for them.

I'm sure that you are familiar with the phrase, "Keep It Simple Sam" AKA KISS. I believe that this approach works the best when using abx. Your husband is a prime example of what can happen when the wrong approach is used. He is taking such a huge mixture of psych druigs, pain and sleep meds, plus abx which include mono-therapies, frequent abx breaks, miniscule amounts of abx to start with, as well as pulsing; and then on top of that he is getting IV Vit C, IV mag, and a mound of other supps, antioxidants and vitamins that interfere with the limited abx that he is able to take. There are many others here that are doing the same thing.

So that's what works for me...I keep it SIMPLE. Nothing but good food, exercise, high dose multi drug combos, and no supps to interfere with them. If I only knew then what I know now, I feel that all my infections could have been completely knocked out in 2 years max.

--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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seibertneurolyme
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Micul,

I won't deny that hubby's protocol is not working as well as I would like. However, a lot of your assumptions regarding his treatment are incorrect. He has been sick for over 8 years so sometimes things I post have to do with treatments he did 4 or 5 years ago.

Hubby has been continually on multiple antibiotics plus low dose Buhner herbs for over 2 years now. This is the longest stretch he has been continuously on antibiotics. He has actually been off magnesium supplements for about a year except for one IV dose in the ER.

He has not been on any psych meds for about 5 years (many were tried during the 1 1/2 years before his diagnosis) -- has tried various seizure meds and is now back on oral Ativan only. Has never taken sleep meds -- only tried Ambien once years ago and that caused amensia. Not on any pain meds -- not even aspirin for about 2 years as well.

Hubby had been off vitamin C for about a year as well until recently -- did continue on other antioxidants though. We actually stopped CoQ10 as well as it just got too expensive.

Hubby is in a quandry right now as his LLMD will not prescribe the meds we want to try or not at the doses we have requested.

The family member who is helping with finances is pretty adamant about not switching docs as that would add greatly to our expenses.

LLMD suggested that hubby's recent ER visit -- first time in 9 months -- was due to a herx. In our opinion it was a result of too low doses of antibiotics or incorrect antibiotics for bart or BLO or mycoplasma -- a change in those meds and consequent improvement in symptoms would seem to indicate we are correct and not the LLMD.

Neurologists are zero help because hubby's tremor and myoclonus and dystonia are not constant.

Hubby did physical therapy for about 3 months this summer and since he regained his weight after healing his G.I. with herbs he is probably the strongest he has been in years.

Hubby and I both feel now is the time to blast away at bart or whatever as the babesia really seems to be gone. But finding a doc who is willing to do that even with orals is not all that easy.

LLMD's seem to be divided over whether it does more harm or good to treat aggressively for patients who have Parkinsonian presentations like hubby.

I still think many patients do better to start low and slow, but do agree that over time the treatment needs to become more aggressive.

I am glad your protocol worked for you. Wish I could find that magic cure for Bart or BLO or whatever the mystery gram negative pathogen is that both F lab and Clongen see in hubby's blood. Levaquin, Cipro, Alinia, Bactrim, Zithromax, Rifampin, Minocycline, Factive, HH, cryptolepis and more have all failed to eradicate this bacteria.

Hubby is currently on Mino, Levaquin, Rifampin, Lumbrokinase, and Vitalzym. Any suggestions for what to add to the mix? LLMD has already refused twice to add in Clindamycin.

Bea Seibert

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lou
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Bea, I tried to send you a pm about clindamycin but your mailbox is full.
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springshowers
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Ok. Yes.. Paying attention to magnesium is important.

Back to the first Post question.

EDTA has made a HUGE Difference for me. I have been doing IV EDTA for a good 6 weeks and doing IV abx right afterward (within the hour).

I am transitioning to EDTA orally at home. It is in the form of goop. It is disolved into something like pinapple juice and then you do your ABX IV again within the hour.

Not sure how to time this if your on Oral. Maybe the same ?

But.. How I know this works is that I did IV ABX at home for a good week before adding the EDTA>
I knew how I responded to the IV ABX by then. It was hard on me but it was new too and I was herxing quite quickly after the IV.

Then when i added the EDTA (small amounts working up to more). I herxed like 5x as much and right after again. I was amazing to me. I was like WOW> It took me 4 weeks to get up to the full EDTA dosing.

I now do that EDTA before every IV I do. And I am now through the worst of the herxing. In addition I am even able to now add some Enzymes and adding those I noticed some increase too in herx. But in essence the herxes are less and less and over faster and faster.

I am assuming because I do not know for sure. That the the EDTA is doing what they are claiming. Breaking up the biofilms and helping the ABX kill those bugs that get exposed.

Just my experience.. and I think a good experiment of sorts because I did it without and then with and compared....

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CD57
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I was told the other night that it is good to do a systemic enzyme (Wobenzym, Vitalzym, Nattokinase, whatever) and then an hour later do EDTA, then an hour later do your ABX.

I don't know how much to start with or work up to. Spring, can you tell us what you are doing? I think this may be key also.

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springshowers
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Hi...CD57..

I will have to figure out dosing.. because the EDTA is by measured by Ml. 10 ml of what I am taking is 1500 MG of EDTA.

I am taking 1/2 that amount 750mg two times a day. I infuse Twice. I am ready to maybe up that because I am not seeing a response anymore. Also I worked up to that from 1/4 that amount. It has to be worked up to. For me it packed a punch. I was able to work up within a couple weeks.

I have been adding The Enzymes slowly..as well. Started with four tablets and working up to 8 for now. And have been doing more research on which ones i want to do.. For now doing Wobenzyme and looking into other combos or what might be best. I like the blends to cover bases.. but. still researching on that.

Where did you hear that? That is interesting. I kinda started formulating this in combination of what i was told and doing from my own research and in conjunction with doctor recommendations.

And I ended up with what you just said?? Very interesting. I take the enzymes first because it takes a bit to digest and get it going in the digestive system. The liquid is faster...

And then I do the ABX.. Within an hour after that..

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seekhelp
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Springshowers, was all this stuff done at Envita?
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CD57
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A local LLMD told us this. I don;t know if he was experimenting or had been advised to try this or what. He just said to start SLOW. so I think I will start with 50 or 100mg/day and see if anything happens.
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