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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Mild Hyperbaric Treatment (Page 52)

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Author Topic: Mild Hyperbaric Treatment
Hominahomina
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Phoiph
In general I agree
Not in my case
That is why I said that is how I do it

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Phoiph
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Well, you have to consider that people from all over the world are reading this thread and looking for advice...
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Hominahomina
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Good point Phoiph
That is what I did in my situation as I said
Of course people should do their due diligence on grounding

I would like to hear if others do it and how

[ 10-06-2020, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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Hominahomina
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Hello All
Just wondering if any of you have tried double dives in a day for example two 1/2 hour or longer dives spaced out Did you get better results or not?

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carbokitty
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HI all~

I just came on to post just the opposite and curious what others think.
I recently cut back to 45 min dives. My last 5 (daily) were 45 minutes. (I'm on dive 418). I decided to try it again as my sleep was getting disrupted and I've found before when I've skipped the occasional day that I sleep through the night.
Well, I'm here for chronic diarrhea and food sensitivities. The last 4 days, my stools have been formed and this morning, hard, almost constiplated. Prior to this but recently, they've been formed but bordering on soft and almost loose (sorry for the TMI).
I went back through my notes and noticed that the last time I tried this (back around dives 311-316), I also recorded formed, almost hard stools.
Then I remembered that I did just 40 min at the clinic for the first 3 months before buying my chamber. And I was SOLD on mHBOT because my stools went from diarrhea to formed after my 3rd ever treatment.

Any thoughts on why my stools might be "more" formed with a 45 minute dive vs. 60 minute?

My sleep has also been better.

The reason I went back up to an hour is that I like the "break" from life-LOL. And I frequently do digital jigsaw puzzles in the chamber and sometimes don't have time to finish a puzzle in 45 min but almost always in an hour-LOL.

My main goal is to be able to expand my diet. I'm not sure if this means I'll be able to do it or not or just that my stools are perfectly formed (LOL)

But again, any thoughts why less seems to be more in my case?

Thanks all. Happy diving!
Carbokitty

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S13
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I dont know about your case but i found 40mins to be way more productive than 1 hour. Less side effects, and that means more therapeutic effect. Too much oxidative stress sends me in a downward spiral. A little is good, too much is bad. That is way i use a huge variety of supplements to boost antioxidant reserves.
But you know, that is just my case [Wink]

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Hominahomina
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S13
How often do you do 40 min dives and at what ATA?
What kind of side effects?
What kind of supplements?

Thanks

[ 10-09-2020, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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dbpei
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S13 that is interesting. I may want to try shorter dives to see what happens. I remember reading that taking too many anti-oxidant supplements while diving can be counter-productive as well - taking away the benefits of mHBOT. I hope someone can chime in here on that. Thank you!
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S13
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I do one dive per day at 1.3ATA. When im traveling i might increase the pressure to compensate for elevation. I find i need to add about 0.01ATA for every 100m (~300ft?) of elevation. So at 1000m elevation 1.4ATA works for me. Going to low and i lose the therapeutic effects completely and within days symptoms start to resurface. There seems to be a certain threshold where the lyme bacteria starts to get affected (annoyed, goes in to hiding, cystic form or whatever). But below the threshold it just doesnt care.

So, side effects of too much oxidative stress for me is just a general downward spiral of symptoms. Most immediate ones are increased restless legs, heart rhythm problems, fatigue, general sense of unwellness / sick feeling, nausea, depression, dizziness and brain fog. Just by staying too long in the mhbot with too high pressure i can induce those symptoms. Not a good thing... And no its not herxing, ive learned my lessons the hard way over the years.

As far as antioxidant supplements go, i heavily use NADH, SOD, Gamma tocopherol (vit E) and Vit C (both water and fat soluble).
Ive not found them to be counterproductive with mhbot, instead they make me feel a lot better and allow me to benefit more from the therapy.

But Im just one of those persons with a clear negative antioxidant balance (probably some genetics involved here). So adding antioxidants is of great benefit. That might not apply to everyone obviously.

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kgg
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S13, so do you take those before or after your dive?

Homina, for Lyme patients, I believe diving twice a day to be counterproductive. On the FB group, usually the ones diving twice a day are traumatic brain injury patients, not people with tick born infections.

Carbokitty, I do not know the science behind your situation. But it certainly sounds like you found a sweet spot for diving. If this was me, I would continue at that time, until things change. There is a paper that speaks of "less is more" in regards to children with CP and diving. I think too many times when it comes to medical things we think that more is better. Obviously, for you, that is not the case right now.

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Hominahomina
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S13 Thanks That is useful information .
I think grounding is a form of antioxident as it permits a flow of free electrons (Not electricity) into the body. That may explain why I feel better grounding while diving.

About elevation I am wondering if mHBOT is ineffective at higher elevations in all cases?

KGG
Can you explain why two dives a day is counterproductive? Thanks

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kgg
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Homina, I have permission to quote Phoiph. This is what was written back in Feb 2016 in response to Toywalk.

"It is really a matter of balance.

Free radicals are a natural part of our metabolism and play a crucial role in health. Too many, and we have "oxidative stress". Too few, and we have less defenses against pathogens, for example.

mHBOT creates free radicals, and also stimulates the body to produce more of its natural antioxidants to compensate.

Taking too many "artificial" antioxidants (i.e., in isolation; not from food) is now being shown to be detrimental for a number of reasons. In theory, taking too many antioxidants while doing mHBOT could thwart the beneficial action of free radicals.

On the flip side, doing TOO much mHBOT (i.e., multiple times per day...just like too much of any good thing) could surpass the body's ability to keep up with antioxidant production, creating oxidative stress.

Here are some good articles on the subject:

Oxidative stress is fundamental to hyperbaric oxygen therapy, by Stephen R. Thom. Journal of Applied Physi9ology 106:988-995, 2009: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660252/

Interview with Dr. Dan A. Rossignol: Hyperbaric oxygen therapy may improve symptoms in autistic children in Medical Hypothesis: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drneubrander.com%2FFiles%2FRossignol%2520Medical%2520Veritas.pdf&ei=VM JAVJmqOc_koAS12oLADQ&usg=AFQjCNFhj2W68J1Gxz_TDqfBAJ7oNPIqDw

The Effects of Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy on Oxidative Stress, Inflammation, and Symptoms in Children with Autism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18005455

Antioxidant Supplements – Not So Good! http://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/antioxidant-
supplements—not-so-good/

Note: That last link appears to have been removed from the internet. Here's a couple more:

http://www.abc.net.au/health/features/stories/2013/10/01/3859751.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19433800"

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Hominahomina
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Thanks KGG
In chatting recently online with Dr Sonners he suggested two dives a day for Lyme bartonella etc.
(He did not specify how long each dive should be in this discussion)


I agree that diving too much (overdoing it) may not be of benefit. Everyone is different and after carefully considering the information provided I can decide through trial and error what works best for me including how long and how frequently I dive in a day

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule

Thanks

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kgg
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I agree. We are all very individual. It is just that typically by the time a Lyme patient is using mHBOT they are fairly sick. So for them diving twice a day would be way too much. Additionally, I have found that the Lyme docs or health professionals that have the more-is-better attitude are people who are not sick and do not know the reality of a herx reaction and or feeling worse from a treatment instead of better. So no, not a hard and fast rule. A general guideline that I find sound. fwiw
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dbpei
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Great resources kgg. Thanks to you and Phoiph! This reminds me of why I may want to reduce some of the nutritional supplements I have been taking. They could be counterproductive.
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Hominahomina
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kgg I agree that to much diving while ill at first is unwise. I don't think you or anyone has the authority to say two dives a day is too much. It could be two short dives. Each person after doing research must decide for him or herself

dppei
I just read a post by a person on facebook that claims increasing his anitoxidents improved his recovery. It gets confusing. I can say I use NAC in conjunction with Coffee enemas which increases glutathione and I have benefited from this

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Phoiph
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Homina,

I don't believe anyone here is claiming to have "authority" on protocols.

Kgg stated that it was not a hard and fast rule, but a general guideline that happens to work for most of us who have been involved with mHBOT for years.

The info kgg shared is hard won through a lot of people's trial and error, research, and seeking of expert opinions, in the spirit that others will have an easier path and not have to re-invent the wheel or experience the same setbacks.

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Hominahomina
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Phoiph and all
I also have my trial and error so I share it here
I have been trying double diving and 90 minute dives

I tried two one hour dives in a day and that was too much so I dropped down to 25 to 30 minute dives spaced about 4 hours apart and enjoyed good results
I am not going to give a report yet because it is too soon

I have been doing 90 minute dives for a few months
not every dive but when I can. When I started the 90 minutes it was at that point I noticed the greatest reduction of symptoms.

I have to mention I have been diving for quite some time and I had to build up to it also the reduction of symptoms could be because I have been diving for a few years in conjunction with the 90 minute

[ 10-19-2020, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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Hominahomina
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HBOT as it relates to Lyme
Dr Jason Sonners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCaWOsHIB0c

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Phoiph
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Homina,

Thank you for the link. I appreciate that Dr. Sonners is promoting hyperbaric for Lyme.

The video brought up a couple of points that I feel are worth commenting on, especially for those new to the thread/mild hyperbaric.

Dr. Sonners stated that the study was designed to determine how Lyme patients responded to HBOT at different pressures, and that it was found that it "took a pressure of 2.36 ATA to kill the infection".

I believe the study that he is referring to (as per the reference posted below his video) is a from a 1990 Pilot Program at Texas A&M University, published by Fife in 1998:

Effects of Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy on Lyme Disease: hbotxofpalmbeach.com/study_pdfs/Lyme-Fife.pdf

This study wasn't actually designed to determine the effects of different pressures on Lyme symptoms, as all subjects were treated at the same pressure of 2.36 ATA. It did use earlier research (Austin) that determined at what pressure spirochetes would be killed in a lab setting (in vitro). This finding was used to estimate a pressure that would be higher than adequate to kill spirochetes in a human being (in vivo). As it turned out, 2.36 ATA was used as it fell into the upper level of this range, and was thought would be tolerable by subjects.

My point is this: unfortunately, the LOWEST level of pressure required to kill spirochetes in vivo was not reported in this study, and to my knowledge, it has still not been studied. Using Austin's data from the Fife study, it would seem likely that a much lower pressure could be lethal to spirochetes than what was reported.

I feel this is important to point out because many people, especially to those new to hyperbaric, may have read the Fife study and feel they must use high pressure in order to "kill the bugs"

Fortunately, we now understand the power of lower pressures used consistently over time, which may directly "kill the bugs", but more importantly, enhances the immune system which is the ultimate weapon.

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