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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Shanghai – Chinese herb for autoimmune

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Author Topic: Shanghai – Chinese herb for autoimmune
Marnie
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464942/ 2012

I have LOTS more, but I am so frustrated as Lymenet will not post it.

(Despite my using tiny URLs in several locations.)

I've gone over and over what I wanted to add (with links) MANY times...very carefully.

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lymie_in_md
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Marnie,

If you get lyme and during having lyme you develop one or more autoimmune conditions. and even though you get rid of lyme, you might not be able to rebalance the body. In other words you may still have an autoimmune issue.

Would this herb help that ?

--------------------
Bob

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Keebler
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Marnie,

Thanks for this one. It sure can be frustrating after collection a set of reference articles to have the URL be bounced back, usually with no clue as to where that "HTML" parentheses thing is that is says it rejects.

Bob,

Qiangji Jianli Fang is not just one herb but a combination formula of many herbs. The formula is intended to help in "autoimmune" instances but usually, such formulas are individualized for the specific patient by the doctor.

From the looks of it, astragalus would be the herb to nudge the immune function with strong adrenal & liver support backup, to keep that in balance.

As Buhner has instructed us, normally, astragalus is too strong for those with chronic lyme or weak adrenals.

This particular formula would be hard to determine how strong a "kick" it might have although the other ingredients are all about support. Still, it's all in the proportions - and the patient's constitution.

If you have access to a LL ND (or similar), they will know about the formula and also all the other possibilities - for what your body may require at this point.
-

[ 08-24-2014, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/13964

How to find an ILADS-educated LL:

N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor);

L.Ac. (Acupuncturist);

D.Ay. (Doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine);

D.O.M. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine);

Herbal Safety considerations & reference books; etc.

Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:

Understanding of the importance of addressing the infection(s) fully head-on with specific measures from all corners of medicine;

knowing which supplements have direct impact, which are only support and which are both.

You can compare and contrast many approaches with links to articles, books, methods . . .

BODY WORK methods / links (and why anyone who works on your spine MUST be LL to the degree they at least know to never suddenly twist neck or spine. Never. Ever. And that we should never be advised to do neck / head / shoulder stands.)
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Keebler
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http://www.itmonline.org/arts/autoimmune.html

Autoimmune Diseases & the potential role of Chinese Herbal Medicine

-From ITM - by Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D (2006)
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Keebler
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It took a while to separate out the herb names in tight spacing but here's that formula - it seems to target support for the HPAA, very commonly clobbered in lyme. I've probably used this or something similar to it. All the names are recognizable as excellent herbs to me. Just search each one to learn more.

I don't see where this exact formula may be purchased or the amounts of each listed. Usually, the amounts are determined by the ND or TCM doctor in regard to the individual patient.

You might start at the site if ITM: www.itmonline.org - Traditional Chinese Medicine research website.


http://worldwidescience.org/topicpages/q/qiangji+jianli+yin.html

Qiangji Jianli Yin - see the first 4 abstracts here. Click onto title for easier reading format. One of those:


http://inis.iaea.org/search/search.aspx?orig_q=RN:41043314

. . . Qiangji Jianli Yin on the hypothalamus CRH contents and plasma ACTH, cortisol levels in rat models of kidney-yang deficiency syndrome

Excerpt:

. . . Conclusion: In rat models of kidney-yang deficiency syndrome, dysfunction of the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPAA) led to decreased secretion of related hormones.

The HPAA function might be partially restored with administation of qiangji jianli yin.

Qiangji Jianli Fang (QJF) is a Chinese Medicine prescription modified from the Buzhong Yiqi decoction including:

Radix astragali - (Astragalus)

Radix codonopsis pilosulae - (Dang Shen

- not the same as dan shen, though which is also called Salvia miltiorrhiza, or Red Sage)

Atractylodes macrocephala - [Bai Zhu - or Atractylodes (White)]

Radix angelicae sinensis - (Angelica, also known as Dong Quai)

Cimicifugae rhizoma - (unique extract of black cohosh )

Radix bupleuri (Bupleurum, liver support)

Pericarpium citri reticulatae - (Tangerine Peel) &

glycyrrhizae - (Licorice)


http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/Pin_Yin_Names-Chinese_Names.html

Pin Yin Names of Herbs matched to their Botanical Names & Common Names


Though not at all about lyme, this is one of the best reference resources on my bookshelf that has wonderful chapters about body organs / systems / herbs, made graciously available through their website. I find it's best to have the actual paper paged book, too.

Home: http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/

The ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK (Tillotson, et.al.)

He is a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine; She a doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncturist. The third co-author is a doctor of optometry.
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[ 08-24-2014, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Back to the first link Marnie posted, I went back and scrolled down further to find what I'd missed at first: the amounts of each. Astragalus is clearing the strong horse in this.

Any ND here in the US would be familiar with this kind of formula or with a formula similar that may be already mixed (or most would also able to design one for your specific needs).

METHOD - Herbs

QJF was produced by the First Affiliated Hospital of Guangzhou University of Chinese Medicine from a boiled water extraction of EIGHT herb components as follows:

60g of R. astragali,

30g of R. codonopsis pilosulae,

15g of A. macrocephala,

10g of R. angelicae sinensis,

10g of C. rhizoma,

10g of R. bupleuri,

5g of P. citri reticulatae and

5g of R. glycyrrhizae.

Compared with the herb levels in the Buzhong Yiqi decoction,

QJF contained:

decreased levels of P. citri reticulatae (5g vs. 6g) and

R. glycyrrhizae (5g vs. 9g R. glycyrrhizae preparata) and

increased levels of R. astragali (60g vs. 18g),

R. codonopsis pilosulae (30g vs. 6g Panax ginseng),

A. macrocephala (15g vs. 9g),

R. angelicae sinensis (10g vs. 3g),

C. rhizoma (10g vs. 6g) and

R. bupleuri (10g vs. 6g).

The herbs were purchased from Zhixin Medicine Health Co. Ltd. (China) and identified by the School of Chinese Pharmaceutical Science, Guangzhou University of Chinese Medicine, China.

For the extraction, the herbs were boiled in four volumes of water for 1h, and the extraction step was repeated once. The two extracts were mixed together for use.
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lymie_in_md
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this may also have to do with balancing th1 and th2. astralgus, Echinacea and goldenseal stimulate th1. th2 is stimulated using ginger or turmeric.

Hashimotos is a autoimmune condition of the thyroid, I had that and finally balanced it. I did it by balancing th1 and th2. For those who doubt energetic testing, well that's how I did it. balancing th1 and th2 with herbs. Now my tests show them being balanced.

I think a number of autoimmune issues are due to unbalanced th1 and th2 or start that way.

--------------------
Bob

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Marnie
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It has more to do with receptors and a protein Bb picked up in the tick's saliva (p8).

Bear with me.

Do you remember that p8 protein Bb picks up in the tick's saliva - the one that inhibits mannose binding lectin (so our defense cells don't "recognize the "sugar" mannose" on proteins)?

That prevents us from fully chopping apart Bb's glyco-proteins.

Mannose is a sugar, lectin is a protein.

MBL (mannose binding lectin) is involved at the BEGINNING of our defense...we need to cleave (chop apart) glyco-proteins (antigens) in bacteria via our first defense cells which then present them to the next defense cells.

By picking up that p8 protein, that messed with our immune response from the get-go. We couldn't fully present ALL the antigens - a "sugary" - mannose protein may have been left behind.


This is the receptor effected:

***CD35*** is found

predominantly on B-lymphocytes but is found also on circulating monocytes (Fearon, 1984) and neutrophils (Fearon, 1984), erythrocytes (Fearon, 1984), eosinophils, and follicular dendritic cells.

CD35 is a receptor for C1q and also binds C4b,

***C3b, iC3b*** and

the ***mannose-binding lectin*** (MBL).

It is also called CR1 (CD35) = complement receptor #1.

Guess what...that is a receptor for this virus:


Human complement receptor type 1/CD35 is an Epstein-Barr Virus receptor.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23416052

Ya know the EBV - MS connections, right?

More...

Anti-Mouse CD21/*CD35* Biotin

I don't know how to interpret the above.

It is biotin or anti-biotin?

According to my Nutrition book, "Prescription for Nutritional Healing"

"Biotin aids cell growth; in fatty acid production, in the metabolism of carbohydrates, fats and proteins' and in the utilization of

the other B-complex vitamins.

(Let me know if you want me to continue - deficiency symptoms, etc.)


It appears Bb's Osp E binds to "Factor H" which may inactivate C3b -> incomplete phagocytosis.

Unable to link it here...I don't know why. I'm having a lot of problems posting links.

"C3b attacks pathogenic bacteria ***which do

NOT bind CFH."(complement factor H)

Bb's OspE binds complement factor H!


Biotin (is Vitamin H)? OspE binds biotin?

This is how that Chinese herb works:

The mechanism of the QJF (Qiangji Jianli Fang) effect on the immunoreactivity could involve an increase in the

***degradation of complement C3***

and

***a decrease in the production of the

active complement C3 fragment.***

(After treatment) the levels of γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA) and coenzyme Q4 resumed their normal states.


Is this what is happening - similar situation?

When the parasite attaches to the macrophage using

CR3 *instead of* CR1,

it eludes oxidative burst

during phagocytosis."

(Given the Wiki description of "oxidative burst" that IS happening.)


C3b - CR1 (complement receptor #1)

Versus

C3bi - CR3 (complement receptor #3)

"Complete" C3b binds to CR1 while a FRAGMENT OF C3b, = C3bi, binds to CR3.

C3bi (Factors I and H - Bb's OspE binds to - which forms C3bi) - CR3 -> oxidative burst.

So if I understand this correctly, CR3 is in full swing (complement receptor #3), while CR1 is not functioning.

CR1 appears to alter the proliferation of T lymphocytes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16360013

Guess what...so does berberine:

berberine may exert immunosuppressive effect through inhibiting the activation and proliferation of T cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16274628

I wonder if OspC...is outer surface protein -COLLAGEN?

Because of this:


Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is a systemic autoimmune disease characterized by inflammation and joint destruction.

In this study, we explored the effect of berberine on rats with

bovine type II collagen-induced arthritis (CIA),

an animal model for RA.

Following treatment, berberine attenuates arthritic scores and

suppresses ***collagen-specific immune responses*** in CIA rats.

Compared with the un-treated CIA group, berberine reversed pathological changes, which showed a significant improvement in synovial hyperplasia and inflammatory infiltration.

The expression levels of tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-α, interleukin (IL)-1β, IL-6, IL-17 and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) were obviously reduced in the sera of berberine-treated rats).

Moreover, berberine showed marked inhibition of the expression of VEGF and CD34.

Interestingly, berberine significantly suppresses p-ERK, p-p38 and p-JNK activation which may partially explain the

anti-RA activity of berberine.

These results suggest that berberine ameliorates CIA in rats associated with anti-inflammatory and anti-angiogenic effects, which might be of great therapeutic value for RA.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24803296

2014

So, we maybe having an immune response to type II collagen because of Bb's proteins which MIGHT be countered via actually giving

***Hydrolyzed*** type II collagen (Wiki)

Look at the difference between proteins and hydrolyzed proteins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolyzed_protein

No wonder the MMPs are up:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9119997

It would appear they are trying to eliminate the final protein...perhaps.


IF we HAVE chopped apart Bb (for the most part) is "autoimmune" the result of

the left-over mannose-lectin or a reaction to OspC...collagen?

Bottom line...if "autoimmune" = "simply" reacting to a remaining collagen protein of Bb's? (within macrophages?) then the above should help...in theory. Dosage/timing?

If Bb is still viable (which also is possible) and camped out in the macrophages/other cells, the combination of diflucan to *assist* berberine maybe necessary (as it is to *eliminate* (also) resistant candida).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24060867 Dec, 2013

P.S. Apparently there is also an iron-buildup in the joints too...Bb's transferrin protein binds iron (F3+3). While berberine might HELP, it too might need a "helper" to *assist* - diflucan.

This wouldn't be the first time combining an Rx with something over the counter (OTC) is beneficial:

"Overall, these results suggest that the concentrated multiherb product Zyflamend alone can inhibit the growth of human pancreatic tumors and,

in addition, can *sensitize pancreatic cancers to gemcitabine* through the suppression of multiple targets linked to tumorigenesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21935918 2012

Doxycycline is not good for everyone with regards to pancreatic cancer:

"The mice have a *version of Kras* that can be

turned on by treating them with doxycycline, an antibiotic,

and only develop pancreatic cancer when this occurs."

Google this:

Kras doxycycline pancreatic cancer

In memory of TWO of my friends.

BTW...Google this:

phosphatidylserine HPA axis

[ 08-24-2014, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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lymie_in_md
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It's interesting when you mentioned biotin. When I made the push to calm my hashimotos. I was taking a lot of biotin, I tested really strong for biotin and methylcobalamin after a while I needed to take niacin. once a week I would test for b complex. At no time did I test for p5p or b6 and none of the other b vitamins.

I test myself using a biotensor, so if you don't believe in energetic testing, roll your eyes and move on. But explain the following -- I had hashimotos in 2009 and my numbers are off the chart, but I don't have it in 2014 what cured me ? Hashimotos is like diabetes, did I cure myself ? :

Collected:07/16/2014 3:32 PM

Component Standard Range Your Value
THYROGLOBULIN AB NEG IU/ML NEGATIVE

Collected:02/11/2009 9:30 AM

Component Standard Range Your Value
THYROID MICROSOMAL AB, TITER, SER, QN, LATEX 292 Reference range: <35
THYROGLOBULIN AB 163 Reference range: <20

--------------------
Bob

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Keebler
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Bob,

Some of the characteristics of herbs on their own change - (or are balanced, enhanced, subdued, etc.) when they meet up with good partners.

The formula Marnie posted certainly looks balanced but the ratio just sort raises a question about how strong it may be - but a LL ND could tell you more, of course, and if it is right for YOUR body.

Some of the ingredients also have anti-microbial properties to cover a range of other considerations.

And, licorice (the last item), has been written about as to help block the toxin action from botulism, and also from borrelia, too. See licorice discussion here: "The Biochemistry of Lyme" www.townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm


Some very good formulas specifically created by LL herbalists for those with lyme contain a little astragalus. It's just that all by itself - or if the ratio is heavy - that there is the caution it can be too forceful for those with weakened adrenals. But there are still excellent ways to work with it.
-

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Marnie
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A long time ago, researchers figured out the enzyme that SARS locks onto and really fast, gave that enzyme and the virus locked onto it...and out it went...didn't infect.

I wonder...

But once INFECTED...a different ball-game.

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Keebler
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Bob, I don't believe that either Hashimotos or diabetes are incurable. In many cases, when the body is faced with infection that contribute or cause either and that infection (or more) are treated, certain conditions may fall away.

With to infections, care with nutrients, diet, etc. if a diagnosis is a "state" of the body rather than a "disease" it is possible to reverse that action.

Just because an organ did not work well before does not mean it can't work okay again, with the right attention to the causes (and if before permanent damage occurs).

Many with diabetes have turned that around and are no longer considered to have diabetes. Of course, there are many causes of that (infection being one, too).

I really doubt that all the "autoimmune" diseases are really that. Some may well be but many are the result of many factors. Change the factors and the diagnosis may (may) also change.

For those "secondary or result" diagnoses in someone with a chronic stealth infection, the body is trying so hard to fight what it KNOWS is there, even if lab tests can't see it, the body knows and is just turned on it's head, so to speak (with the Th1, Th2 flip that lyme does).

So, then what some think is an autoimmune disorder really could be a chronic stealth infection, a specific nutrient deficiency, etc.

I'm not talking about those dx with genetic causes - where the has been an actual test done - not just assumed because parents had diabetes that it "runs in the family" as many may think. I think those assumptions are often in error.

Yet, even true genetic cases may have hope for turn a rounds (at least to some degree) when all factors are considered.

It's important to look at some diagnoses as the "state" of things at that point, rather than the end of the road.

And, as Marnie is so good to remind us often, ENZYMES and such also are key. Get the trash out, and then the puzzle pieces all there in correct order, all fitting & functioning properly and things can work again.
-

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lymie_in_md
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keebs

I buy my all my herbs from mountainrose herbs by the pound. So I will go heavy on herbs I use and not everyone should. If you know the herbals and you know your own body enough (intuitively and energetically) you can pulse with large amounts for short periods of time. But that's the rub, very do know there own bodies that well or energetically know how to test well enough.

I can take 80 drops of a poke root tincture and be fine with it. Very few can do that much!

For hashimotos I was trying to balance th1 and th2 herbs. And getting rid of candida in the process. Which complicates the rebalancing. I've always had a white tongue. During this process I finally gotten rid of it.

The next step is to rebuild my thyroid ability to supply hormones. I'm trying to think that through now.

Its funny how my testing is more about pulsing then extended use. I will take a teaspoon of astralgus (split twice during a day) for 5 days and my testing will stop me and I'll be doing 4 days a teaspoon of turmeric along with cat's claw. I'll keep mixing up what herbs I use for what I test for.

With herbals that you use, you get a great affinity for these plants and I've talked about my affinity for poke. Instead of pills, I'll put the powder in my mouth and let it set there. The mouth is a gate where there is a great number of enzymes. I think it also a communications center for things incoming for the body. most times i'll open pills and put the powder in my mouth.

Anyways, I love herbals, if I had time I go to Tai Sophia -- folks can look it up -- and take courses. maybe next year when my projects under control.

For me keebs, I feel like my own personal herbalist and I have a lot of fun with it. I grow them, I'll wildcraft them, I'll buy them, and I'll use them. [Smile]

--------------------
Bob

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Keebler
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Glad to share a love of herbs.

I love Mountain Rose Herbs and I also buy a lot of the straight powdered ones and combine myself.

I burp back some (especially the adrenal herbs) and if you've got that figured out, I'd love to know how to prevent it.

Tai Sophia -- I've followed them and Snow's work for years. Seems very nice. Glad they are close to you.

I see know that you get it. My attempts to explain just can't hold a candle to what I wish I could say and often sound like I'm talking to someone who has never heard of an herb . . . maybe just to be sure something is not overlooked.

I got clobbered big time now and then and still do every once in a while. Rhubarb is the big one there, I got the powdered rhubarb (colon help) but, my, oh my . . . I guessed wrong on the balance a few times. Fun times, indeed (not).


So I know what you say about Poke Root (and I've read the cautions so can't help but go "oh? Really ? Uh!" but then know that you've done lots of study.

Similarly, I use Neem Oil in my mouth and that is not the best idea, straight, by the book. But a few drops really keeps the ulcers away like nothing else would.

It took a lot of searching past those that say "no" to those that were finding, "yes, it is actually helpful for dental issues - a few drops of the oil."

Recently, I bought too much thyme leaf from them for my cooking and thought, oh, wonder if I can turn it into a powder and put in with Stinging Nettle and Gotu Kola powders. I looked it up, all well and good. I put in the right ratio but it was too much for my lips . . . they lit up like Rudolf's nose.

Lesson there I did not heed: don't mix the entire batch all at once. I have a full quart jar of powder to now work through - a few tablespoons at a time, trying not to let it touch my lips as I drink it down.
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lymie_in_md
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Keebs we both get it, one way communication isn't perfect communication. we've been on this site for years and lyme makes us very strongly connected for understanding things we can't share even with our closest relatives.

I like you have gotten clobbered by using the wrong herbs at even the wrong time and amount. It is part of the learning process we've both gone through.

You learn cinnamon shouldn't be put in the mouth by itself. might be better to put it in yogurt first. there are videos on youtube [lol]

I love thyme but not nettles, not sure why I have no affinity for it. Don't understand why I haven't tinctured thyme yet. Not a big gotu kola fan I've been working on 1 lb bag of powder for 6 years and I still half of it. I brush my teeth with neem. I really like cloves, chew them all the time at least once a day like natural gum. Its common from folks from India to do this.

I know R Snow btw, I met her at a support group meeting around 2008. She's very nice, drove a lime green vw beetle if memory serves correctly. [lol] She used to post here. I haven't talked to her in years, maybe this is a reminder I should.

If you take a poke root tincture, no more than 3 drops in 8 ozs of water to start.

I have a question keebs, is there a herb you have a great affinity for like I do with poke ?

--------------------
Bob

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Keebler
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Bob,

It's getting too hot here to think. I have some family coming to town in a few days and am months behind getting myself together. I come here for diversion, today, a minute here or there . . . and would like to continue this conversation but it will take some real thought (oh, my, not THAT!).

So, "See you in September?" I'm make a note to return to this. Still, not sure I have the energy for much conversation of sorts.

Stinging Nettle and Gotu Kola are my favorites for support --

but so is BERBERINE for more of a "direct" job.(Thanks to Marnie for bringing that to my attention) and to Carol in PA for reminding me of SHILAJATU recently. I did very well when I took that as a tonic years ago through suggestion of:

Tillotson's book, the ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK has been my best window to this world. I met two of the authors once, too. Fabulous experience.
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lymie_in_md
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Have fun with your family keebs [Smile]

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Bob

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Keebler
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Thanks. Some very heavy beat "music" just rocked my world for a few hours from a neighboring apt. and I'm just toast. All the more easier to admit my place won't look like a magazine feature by mid-week. If I just stay alive and can talk, it will be a success. Glad I can reassign priorities in life. It sure helps.
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Marnie
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I was just catching up on reading and my June issue of Discover magazine had an article in it about biofilms.

A scientist (woman) is trying to figure out a way to disrupt this "communication" between pathogens.

She originally thought there was 1 molecule involved, then 2 and then she found a

3rd.

***There are 3 molecules involved with quorum sensing.***

Which comes as no surprise to me! "There are but multiples of three in all..."

But got me wondering:

Is there any herb that has a frequency of 128HZ?

That is also "perfect C" musically.

While "pulsing" is important and is used to make "waves", the particular "Hz" has to be absolutely on target.

Whereas scanning a target frequency hits mutant forms (when targeting a pathogen) after the biofilm has been disrupted.

The herbs:

Putting a teaspoon of cinnamon in one's mouth can be - DEADLY!!! Some gets inhaled and causes choking and lung infection inflammation.

Never ever do it.

Speaking of herbs:

And here is another herb we have to be careful with - goes bad sometimes:

http://theolivepress.com/news-blog/be-aware-of-the-risks-of-botulism-with-homemade-garlic-infused-oil#.U_yPcTbD99A

Keebler, I wonder if you could *counter* the brain wave electrical disruption

caused by the loud music

by listening (with headphones) to a really good "meditation" CD

based on normal brain waves to

keep them in sync? Instead of trying to block them - counter them?

I know *and own* several wonderful CDs - one is my favorite.

What your body "feels" and "hears" - those very loud beats - maybe disrupting your brain waves, so listening/hearing something ELSE might help.

Here is a very strange instance when loud music really harmed a young man (who had underlying cardiac problems):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234191/Student-complained-loud-bass-music-getting-heart-dropped-dead-freshers-party-day-enrolling-university.html

But you are not alone - noise triggered seizures:

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread141146.html

BTW,

Most people do NOT live in "House Beautiful". Those homes are actually

very rare.

The magazine should be titled: "Rare House Beautiful", IMO.

"Presentable" kitchens and bathrooms are tops on the list of "importance".

More than once, I've greeted my guests with a lemon Pledge rag in my hand! And subsequently was exhausted BEFORE their visit (not good).

And more than once, I've cleaned BEFORE a (monthly) maid comes - not just picked up.

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Marnie
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Up for Keebler...esp. the link re: noise triggered seizures.

Counter them?

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