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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » herx or what..er visit..omg!!!

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Author Topic: herx or what..er visit..omg!!!
randibear
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well what a time I've had. landed in the hospital saturday to sunday.

been on amoxy and flagyl for uti. doc gave me 200 diflucan and said take after you finish the others.

so I take one pill friday and the next one on saturday.

two hours after I go to get up off sofa and am so dizzy and nauseated I can't stand. then start vomiting and can't stop. head is going to burst and ears are full and ringing loudly. am disoriented and can't talk.

he agrees to er baylor. get there and nurses start running. my bp..get this..is 215 YES 215 over 187. they start iv, which I don't remember at all. doc comes in immediately and starts asking questions but I can't answer.

talks to husband. oh oh I'm sick again and start vomiting. they give me something in iv and a small pill with a little water.

doc orders cat scan of brain and ekg. get cat scan but they start
wheeling me around so fast I get sick and start vomiting again.

now I'm freaking out and shaking so bad I can't stop and crying. they're afraid to give me anything to calm me down. I'm loosing it big time. refuse to let go of doctor's hand.

more drugs to get the bp down. now at 202. bp monitor hurts so bad I'm still crying.

after a couple of hours down to 190 then more hours now down to 178.

head is absolutely killing me. nausea is a little better.

this goes on for most of the night. finally sunday they say it's down to about 150 and do you want to stay and do complete cardiac and neuro workup. I'm not real lucid here guys.

doc says all tests normal. blood sed rate urine cat scan eeg you name it. everything is normal.

husband says no we're going home. doc says its hypertensive emergency episode and gives me zofran. says to come back if it goes up immediately.

sunday and Monday I'm so sick I can't eat. nausea and blinding head and ear pain.

tuesday a little better. bp is in the 120s.

today a little better. actually had a couple of hours with no headache but ears still painful.

we're thinking could have been either the chicken I got at walmart OR a major major herx reaction to the massive abx followed by two days of diflucan.

gosh I was sick. I really thought I was a goner this time. especially when a doctor pulls your husband aside and starts talking to him.

er doc says go back to primary, get on statins, and new bp medicine and anxiety meds. uh huh...

have to say husband did stay and didn't leave me...surprise.

so what the hell happened?

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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Keebler
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Considering the vomiting, the food should be investigated - if nothing else, to rule out some kind of food poisoning.

Actually, all foods / beverages / condiments consumed for a few days prior should be considered, too. And utensils, cutting boards, habits traced. Fridge temperature "taken" to be sure its adequate and safe.

Certainly, it could be the combination of Rx and your body's reaction . . . or many other things. You might ask if any of the tests would have detected any clues were this to have been caused by food poisoning.
-

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Keebler
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http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=114859;p=0#000000

FOOD POISONING - Reference and Educational Links
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Keebler
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With the vertigo and ears, an inner or middle ear issue may also be involved. Some of the Rx listed are ototoxic. Every one of the symptoms you list at the start can point to ototoxicity / vestibular involvement. Every one.

Now, whether it's the cause or part of the reaction for other reasons is a bit rough to figure out.

(Even if liver support is on board it may not adequate. And it's hard to figure that out - and no test can really tell all about the liver but I hope they did some basics on the liver.)

When the inner / middle ear sections are involved, nausea and vertigo can go bonkers and even cause vomiting. And such turmoil could also raise someone's BP, certainly.

I would certainly hesitate to take any drug that is ototoxic until things settle down. And / or reconfigure liver / kidney support.
-

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randibear
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we told the dr about the chicken but he said it would not cause the high bp, ear pain and pressure. he said that's all high bp symptoms but the vomiting is not high bp symptom. he couldn't figure it out.

my sister said she has these episodes when she has whats called an acute anxiety attack. she's on paxil and a bunch of other meds.

I'm not doing any meds till this nausea and queasy stomach go away.

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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Lymetoo
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Wish you would get the cardiac work up.

It could be a combination of things... the food, the herxing, the high BP. I would suspect the high BP (or something else) caused a migraine and the migraine caused the nausea and headache.

Did you tell him you have migraines?

Hope you feel better very very soon!

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--Lymetutu--
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Robin123
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Sorry to read about your ordeal. Was it a new regimen for you to do massive abx followed by two days of diflucan? If so, I'm leaning that direction, in terms of how you responded. Then you will definitely need to treat more lightly.

If the chicken, well then, you should not cross the road to catch the chicken...

Btw, blood pressure cuffs kill my arm too. I generally try to ask for manual, not automatic!

At least your husband stayed with you. That's something, at least!

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randibear
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I've had a complete cardiac checkup couple of months after my surgery. thalmic stress treadmill and some kind of sonogram thingy with gel. everything good. even had some kind of neuro head thing with all these wierd wires all over my head. normal...

I'm sort of leaning toward herx. I was taking 1500 of amoxy and 500 of flagyl for two weeks. before that I did 1000 of macrobid for about 3-4 days but side effects were so bad I couldn't continue.

haven't done that much diflucan ever. and it was right after all the abx.

the er doc said no symptoms pointed to migraines with that severity. especially the disorientation. I was really out of it.

and yes I was surprised he stayed. I told him he could leave and the doc said oh no you don't. if something happens and she's out of it we need legal permission should something happen. I do have an dnr order on file tho.

I'm afraid to even take an aspirin or anything.

oh I forgot to mention the awful shortness of breath. I was gasping to breathe. not as bad now but still uncomfortable.

can a herx be that severe?

[ 09-24-2014, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: randibear ]

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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lpkayak
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Im really glad your ok

I guess a herx can be pretty bad since a few ppl have died from them

Kinda sounds like more than one thing going on tho

Once i took one dose of ketoconazole an anti funcal and i thought i was gonna die. I told doc if i needed that they would have to knock me out til it was out of my system. Im guessing i had some really bad fungal bug or yeast but the docs just stopped it and coudnt explain it

It makes me wonder if i took a small dose for. Long time maybe i woud kill something off and id feel better...but im afraid of that drug

Diflucan and nystatin always m as ke me feel better with no herx

Im afraid a lot of us are entering a new phase...lyme hasntkilled us but it keeps messing us up in ways the docs cant figure out

I still have this bad left shoulder getting worse after two yrs but all tx i got made it worse than this

The blood pressure is really scarey...have you been on bp meds all along?

I guess im like you with the heart. Cardiac work ups aleays ok but im.over weight and high lipids

Be careful with .statins

I dont know what im doing about high.lipids...maybe questran

Yake care randi...let us know your plan

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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randibear
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I've been on diovan and nadolol for years.

been keeping track. since Saturday it's been pretty normal. low of 97/81 but a high of 160/99.

strange.

sis swears im having panic/stress. don't think so do you?

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Ellen101
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Diflucan can cause nausea, vomitingand dizziness. I would be very cautios about taking it agin.
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Dogsandcats
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I know I wasn't there, I am not a dr......

Sounds like one of my ER migraine visits....but you said it didn't feel like it.

Sounds scary, glad he stayed. I have DNR papers on file also, always concerned " someone " will try and revoke...
Ya know?

Hope you get better soon, you have had a rough go

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randibear
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well I checked that askapatient.com site and you know what. I found several that had episodes jus like mine so I'm wondering if a reaction or diflucan herx.

but I don't think I'm going to take again. I really thought I was done for.

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Lymetoo
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Since your BP tends to be high (and has been out of control before, right?) then I think if you had anything else going on, it could make the BP skyrocket.

Then you would have a severe headache and if you also had a migraine, it could be really rough.

If your yeast is that bad, then you really need to address it SOMEHOW.

But right now.... REST and get yourself back to a better place. Take it easy.

I don't think it's a panic attack, no. But I'm not a doctor.

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Rumigirl
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I'm not a doctor, of course, but it really sounds like a massive herx from both the abx and the Difulcan both.

Could you do some gentle detox? REally simple, like lemon in water?

That sounds completely scary and awful.

Is your UTI gone, I hope? (So you don't have to take abx for that now).

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bigstan
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Its the Flagyl and diflucan, you cannot take these together, Always go online people and put in all the drugs, herbs you are taking and check interactions.

There are many drug interactions website online. here is what is said for flagyl diflucan:

Severe severe interaction,

Do not take these drugs together without approval from your prescriber. Discuss possible alternative treatment options with your health care provider.

Taking these drugs together can increase the risk of a dangerous change in heartbeat or heart rhythm. Contact your prescriber immediately if you experience chest pain, dizziness, fainting or falling spells, palpitations, shortness of breath, or a change in your heart beat (such as a fast or irregular heart beat).

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HERX is a Four Letter Word!

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Lymetoo
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OMG... That must be it.

Even though she stopped the flagyl, it was still in the system.

YIKES

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--Lymetutu--
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bigstan
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Right The plasma half-life of fluconazole is approximately 30 hours, and Flagyl 7-8 hours.

I also learned the hard way taking levaquin and diflucan. That is before I got smart and now check all interactions.

KA

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HERX is a Four Letter Word!

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lpkayak
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And the stupid docs didnt know this...even the er docs?

Its like what they warn you about flagyl and alcohol?

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Razzle
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Um, I've been told by more than one pharmacist that it actually takes 2-3 days for Flagyl to stop causing a person to be sick from alcohol.

Half-life is not necessarily the same thing as how long the effects of the drug are going to be present.

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-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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randibear
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omg!!! I bet that was it. good heavens.I could have died, really.

still have bad head pressure and full ears. bp still wonky, up and down.

500 of flagyl 875 of amoxy then add 200 of diflucan and me on high bp meds and a stress relationship...recipe for disaster

[ 09-25-2014, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: randibear ]

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Ellen101
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quote:
Originally posted by bigstan:
Its the Flagyl and diflucan, you cannot take these together, Always go online people and put in all the drugs, herbs you are taking and check interactions.

There are many drug interactions website online. here is what is said for flagyl diflucan:

Severe severe interaction,

Do not take these drugs together without approval from your prescriber. Discuss possible alternative treatment options with your health care provider.

Taking these drugs together can increase the risk of a dangerous change in heartbeat or heart rhythm. Contact your prescriber immediately if you experience chest pain, dizziness, fainting or falling spells, palpitations, shortness of breath, or a change in your heart beat (such as a fast or irregular heart beat).

Wow big stan thanks for posting this! I did not realize the two could not be taken together.
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Lymetoo
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Did the ER docs know you had taken both of them?

Or they assumed that since you had stopped the flagyl and then taken the diflucan that you "weren't on both of them?"

PS .. What was the flagyl for?

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randibear
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it was for the uti. and I had told him I stopped taking the amoxy and flagyl several days ago. I took one diflucan on friday the day after I stopped the meds and then took another diflucan on saturday. which is what my doc said to do.

something is screwy tho. I'm off elavil for months now and am only on bp meds.

bp is high this morning. 140s...sigh

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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Lymetoo
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I never heard of taking flagyl for a UTI. That is why I was wondering.

Maybe the elavil was helping your BP? I don't think that is usually the case, though?

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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randibear
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elavil was for sleep but causes horrendous weight gain which is why I stopped it.

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GretaM
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EEEEEKKKKKK!

Randibear! Just saw your thread! Don't know how my eyes missed it!

Scary! Glad you are OK and out of there now.

Elavil made me gain lots of weight also. Hated it.

I agree flagyl is cumulative. The longer one is on it, the longer it stays in the tissues. This is why the pulsing for tinidazole also.

I didn't know diflucan interacts with flagyl. Good to know.

Glad you are OK.

Once again I am appalled at the level of ignorance ER docs display...one more reason to stay the heck away out of there.

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Dogsandcats
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Elavil made me gain poundage. I could have stopped eating and gained 200 pounds.

I hope you feel all better soon!

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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Lymetoo
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How are you this evening, randi?

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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lpkayak
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Yeah...im wondering too. Are you ok randi

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randibear
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bp is up. in the 170s and ain't coming down. still have lots of head pressure and my ears hurt. they've ringing like crazy and loud. thank heavens the nausea and dizziness have stopped tho.

if this was a drug interaction or a severe herx, how long should this last? I wish it would go away.

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Keebler
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I am unsuccessful in finding a way that adequately cautions about the ototoxity risks of some of the meds you mentioned that are, in fact, known to be ototoxic. Tinnitus is one sign.

Please consider not restarting any Rx that is ototoxic. And you may have to get the book for the best guide. Neil G. Bauman, 3rd edition, Ototoxic Drugs.

there are so many there that you just won't find on any website but go ahead and cross search his name, Rx name, and terms "ototoxic" and "vestibular toxic"

Also cross search not just the web but at PubMed, the names of all your Rx, and "deafness" -- and then "hearing loss"

This is about far more than hearing loss but that can certainly be involved, too.

I would consider looking into RIFE as so many of the Rx to treat are ototoxic and there comes a point where (especially since you don't seem to have a LLMD who has a detained plan) one just can keep plugging in ototoxic drugs without damage that could be permanent.

And, even if not hearing loss (though that can come later), tinnitus can be permanent. And it's a hell of a way to have to live. I hope it settles down for you, though, it may take a while.
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Keebler
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Can you find a neurotologist who may be at least somewhat lyme literate by asking whatever ILADS educated LLMDs are within a 500 hundred mile radius to you?

Neurotologists are not all that common but there should be at least a couple in your state, as to if one would be LL, even if not, they could assess your ear situation in a way that other hearing specialists just don't know about. It's just best if they also know about lyme / TBD so they know how to sort.

But if there is damage, they have some ways to better assess that not found in other ear experts' offices.

IMO, you should also be receiving "triage" care for your ears with a LL ND.
-

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Lymetoo
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Which of these are ototoxic, Keeb?

amoxicillin
flagyl
diflucan

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--Lymetutu--
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Keebler
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Lots of detail here:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=065801

Topic: TINNITUS: Ringing Between The Ears; Vestibular, Balance, Hearing with compiled links - including HYPERACUSIS
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Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rumigirl
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Oh, Lord have mercy!! A drug reaction to the two??! I did know that once, but didn't think of it.

What is wrong with these doctors that they don't know it? Both your prescribing doctor and the ER docs.
Most doctors DO NOT know that much about side-effects and interactions.

Now that you have this information, hmm. With your BP high again, shouldn't you see someone? What a mess. So sorry you're going through it. It does sound like you could have died.

I, too, always check in a nursing PDR about meds, or online, for side-effects, interactions (that's done online easily), considerations, etc. No one else will do it for me (or any of us).

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Dogsandcats
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Lymetoo-

Maybe this will help you......


https://www.ata.org/sites/ata.org/files/pdf/Ototoxic_Brochure_by_League_for_Hard_of_Hearing_2012_Jul_12.pdf

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beaches
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I hope tonight finds you feeling better!!!

I can't add much. I have what I refer to as "BP attacks" where my BP goes through the roof and come out of nowhere. It takes days for the BP to return to nml.

When BP is high, my main symptom is a very bad headache (so much for hypertension not having symptoms!). I just try and rest as much as possible and ride it out til the BP returns to nml.

I hope you are feeling better!

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randibear
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believe me I ain't taking nothing. and if I do I'm talking to the pharmacist

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do not look back when the only course is forward

Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lymetoo
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Thanks, Dogs. I didn't see any of those listed. Great list!!

Bactrim is on the list though.

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seibertneurolyme
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Randi,

Very important to start a daily log and list all your meds. By putting it in writing the docs might pay more attention. I had to carry Steve's typed up med list with me to every ER and hospital visit because they just made too many mistakes otherwise.

SO sorry you had such an experience and hope you can get it figured out soon.

Can't remember if you have babesia or not, but both flagyl and diflucan do have some effect on babesia and babesia is known to cause headaches and in some people I do think it can affect blood pressure.

I definitely remember one ER visit where Steve had extrememly high blood pressure early in his babs treatment and that was not a normal symptom for him.

Bea Seibert

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randibear
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I really I have to say I don't know exactly what caused it but I'm leaning towards the drugs.

my ears are still hurting. I just hope no permanent damage has been done.

I am now afraid of every little thing. wondering about food, heat, even shopping. what could set something off. sure has put a damper on my mood thats fer sure.

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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Lymetoo
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The good news is that now you know that combo of drugs is NOT GOOD.

I wouldn't worry about shopping. [Big Grin]

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--Lymetutu--
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soccermama
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BigStan, what website did you use? I went on drug checker and that site did not list any interaction between the two. Huh?

I had taken both for a period of months two years ago and didn't have any reaction.

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Lymetoo
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hmmmm.... Drugs.com:

http://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=1096-0,1617-988

https://www.healthtap.com/topics/diflucan-and-flagyl

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--Lymetutu--
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bigstan
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http://www.healthline.com/druginteractions?addItem=diflucan&imuid=2793248&addItem=flagyl

I agree some of these sites aren't always going to have same information. I'm going by a website that I always use and was recommended to me by a pharmacist years ago at CVS. Because over the years he saw how much drugs I was taking. At least this one has doctors who review site.

Do who reviews site:

http://www.healthline.com/health/medical-board

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HERX is a Four Letter Word!

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randibear
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interesting. but I had vomiting, nausea, dizziness, extremely high blood pressure, severe ear pain, excruciating headache, eye pain, facial jerking, really bad anxiety, disorientation, muscle and joint pain.

but the dr said there was no drug interaction cause he knew what I was taking.

ok, so I called my sister, the radiologist one. she felt because of my home life (and she should know cause her ex was a beater and she's had similar episodes. AND my older sister is married to a beater also and she has these episodes but not the high bp. geez, my family is so messed up.)

where was I? oh, anyway sis said a complete shutdown can cause some of these.

I don't know but something happened. my bp is still high, ear and head pain.

my friend susieq, said a herx once put her in the hospital for several days. her adrenals failed. she was in bad shape. she doesn't take abx for anything and now does herbs. shes doing ok.

my gp once suggested something to help calm me down like an antidepressant or something. two sisters are on them. maybe I should consider it.

or could be I'm jus batcrap crazy...

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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jwick25
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Hi Randi,

OMG....so sorry for all that you are going through!

Like others, I can't believe the ER docs didn't know about the drug interaction!?!

I hope you start to improve and can get some definite answers about the bp, etc.

I have a prescription for lorazepam that I only take when really needed. Maybe something for anxiety would help, but I'd wait to find out what is causing all of this.

Thinking of you! [Smile]

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Lymetoo
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I think those are too many symptoms to be "anxiety", stress or trauma. Too many and too varied. Also too extreme.

Your ER doctor thought you might die. Most doctors know when the symptoms are more than just anxiety.

Might be good to see a counselor though to get yourself checked out. See what they think.

I'd still bet on the drug reaction, but keep in close contact with your doctor.

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beaches
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You aren't crazy! Read the links LT posted from drugs.com. That's the site I always go on to check interactions.

Ask the doc if you need something to calm yourself down while you're going through this. Lorazepam isn't a bad idea. Do what you need to do to reduce the stress/anxiety.

And ask to try a different BP med.

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lpkayak
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My dil has had bp problems forever

Yhey are costantly changing her bp meds cuz of the craziest problems

Ive been worried about you but until beaches suggested changing bp med i didnt thinkof that

Bp meds are notorious for side effects

After lyme we're complicted but not crazy...i wish you could get to a doc that really unferstands lyme

Is there anywy the walking you started is connected?

I think of you a lot randi. Hang in

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Rumigirl
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It really sounds like the most likely culprits are drug interaction and massive herx----probably both at once. Arghhh!

It is really concerning though that you are still have symptoms and high BP. That needs to get under control (the bp, I mean). So you need to see whatever doctor deals with that. As beaches, or someone else) mentioned, you may need a change of bp meds.

But everything has to be checked for interactions and side-effects, of course.

As I mentioned, some simple detox would help if part of it is a huge herx, as I am guessing it is----but only part of it. Lemon in water is a simple one that shouldn't cause more symptoms.

Someone needs to get to the bottom of this! Doctors----yeeesh!

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Rumigirl
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BTW, I assume that you're over the UTI; I hope so!
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randibear
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I went to a local health food store. the woman claims to have known and follows cowden protocol. she said it was a massive yeast herx complicated by lyme.

she has seen several people become violently ill when drs treat lyme too aggressively and the patient has yeast and other health issues.

her recommendation is detox. baths,water, herbal drops, and she said some people benefit from foot detox and coconut oil swishing.

also it may take several weeks to months to recover.

no abx but some other lyme treatment such as buhner or cowden and a natural yeast treatment but only after I recover.

she seemed knowledgeable and didnt push anything. I'm glad I had Baylor tho.

ohbp today is coming down. in the 130s and 120s but still have ear pain.

yeah no more uti.

never again.

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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Brussels
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I once went to ER. I thought too I was dying in the ambulance. My body got totally paralyzed, I couldn't breath, my heartbeat went up. I felt like dying.

That was the beginning of my lyme treatment.

Too many killers, even if I was taking ONLY herbs. I added too much andrographis, and was not consuming the LOADS of chlorella and MSM (sulphur) as I should (I didn't know much about detox or herxes then).

since then I noticed that high BP was mostly a herx for me. Heart symptoms though were also lyme related. Headaches, almost always a herx too.

I have high BP almost always EXCLUSIVELY when I'm killing infections, be that borrelia or yeast, fungi, babs or something else. Never in normal days, when I'm not fighting infections.

The nausea, I had on and off during lyme, and it had to do with infections (I know babesia caused me nausea, and I even can't stand sunlight when babesia is active or I just puked). Or other infections too.

Since that night in the ER, I got very afraid of lyme. In fact, only later, I discovered that what sent me to the ER was merely an excess of killers, not exactly lyme itself.

Later, I read a couple of articles about herxheimer, that it CAN kill. I'm sure many die of herxheimer reactions, not of infections.

Toxins, according to dr. K., are the culprit for MOST of your symptoms. It's not the infections. If a body detoxes well, it won't get chronically ill with infections.

I learned that the bad way. After that, I concentrated on detoxing, balancing. Then you can add killers, whatever they are, and you keep improving. Without a massive detox substances, you kill, but you don't get forward.

I'm glad that you survived! Just do not forget detoxing!

Posts: 6185 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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