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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Will antibiotics effect my Western Blot results?

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Author Topic: Will antibiotics effect my Western Blot results?
Missyrye1956
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Good afternoon. I have a question about my up coming Western Blot test.

I had a test done in February 2016, with 2.29 EIA and positive band 23 (only) on my WB. I could not get a diagnosis through my regular MD, based on that, even though I have the symptoms and a Erythema Migrans rash last April.

After much disagreement between doctor and I, my doctor finally decided to agree to draw my blood for me again and send it to Igenex at my own expense.

My doctor also prescribed Amoxicilln 3X per day for 30 days. She will not give me Doxycycline.

My question is, should I start the Amoxicilln before they draw my blood for me on my next Western Blot? Or should I wait until after they draw my blood?

I have read that antibiotics can re-activate the B. Burgdorferi infection and possibly test positive for more bands than before.

But, I have also read that it can cause a seronegative result as well. My assumption of the seronegative results due to antibiotics applies to early Lyme, more than Late Lyme. But I'm not sure.


I would like someone's advice on what you may think about it. Because I want the best outcome possible on the next test, so I can prove my doctor wrong. My doctor doesn't want to except that I have Lyme disease.

And they do that want to treat me properly.

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Keebler
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Yes, they may. The effect could be helpful in allowing a body response, though it could also be not helpful and suppress the truth. It just depends on various factors.

The key is for the lab to know which you were taking at the time, dose, etc.

Yet, first, communicate with Igenex, themselves and study the very best circumstances for the clearest outcome.

Be sure to have blood drawn EARLY in week by a local lab you TRUST to do it all correctly and get it shipped out exactly as Igenex requires.

Also have it drawn early enough in the day for them to prepare it for shipping and you check the time for FedEx (or which ever carrier Igenex suggests) and be sure of their lab pick up time.

If you are not sure if you can trust the drawing lab, don't do it. Just don't. Find one you can trust. There is a well respected LLMD in your region. You could call his office and ask which drawing labs they know are trustworthy to do it right.

Your relationship with the people who work at that lab is vital. Yet, as your doctor is so resistant to this, my radar is just a little more on guard. Just keep your eyes wide open.


http://www.igenex.com/Website/

Igenex

Some of the links offer detail. And you can call them after you read all that if you have other questions.


http://drcharlescrist.net/testing-for-borreliosis.html

Testing for Borreliosis


http://www.anapsid.org/lyme/lymeseroneg.html

Reasons for False Negative (Seronegative) Test Results in Lyme Disease

You want to avoid these situations.
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Keebler
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I don't want you to get your hopes up too high for the possibility of your GP treating you if the test comes back positive.

It likely won't happen and it does not sound like she would be at all prepared with the knowledge to do so, anyway.

As you had one positive band on the WB, I would hold off on testing. Contact the LLMD in Missouri and - if you think you might be able to go there - talk to them about the test.

You may not need further testing. Lyme is a clinical diagnosis. With symptoms, history, your clinical assessment and that band on the WB, the doctor may have all he needs to make a proper diagnosis.

And you could save the money for treatment / consult.
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Keebler
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Be sure to log in so you can check your private messages. As you got no specific replies in your post for Missouri LLMD last month [unless you got some PMs], I just sent you a PM for Dr. C.

Perhaps others here who might know other resources in your area could also communicate with you.
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me
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I agree with Keebler. The people at IGeneX have always been very helpful when I've talked to them.

I highly recommend you go to a LLMD as soon as you can, especially since your doc is so resistant. If your doc is that resistant, it makes me question how effectively she would treat you even though she may have the very best intentions for you. If your doc is not a LLMD, that concerns me.

More so than proving your doctor wrong, I want you to be able to get the proper treatment needed. I'm not being judgemental here bc I so want to prove so many people wrong on Lyme, in both my personal life and on a large-scale basis. Not in a mean way.

Lyme is a clinical diagnosis, and blood tests can be unreliable sometimes. You want to treat Lyme and coinfections as soon as you can.

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Missyrye1956
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Thank you so much for your response. I'm very skeptical about my doctor drawing the blood. She has a nurse in-house who draws blood for her.

But her nurses, do not know anything about Lyme or how to handle the blood work properly.

Her head nurse wanted me to come in yesterday(Friday) to do the bloodwork. I told her the Igenex test form specifically states not to do it on Thursday or Friday. She just rolled her eyes, so I told her I will be there Monday.

I will call Igenex and ask them what they suggest. I also need to call the LLMD here in Missouri again. I called once before but I cannot afford the appointment.

I have been of work for almost 3 months now because I'm so sick. Dizzy, bumping into things, slurring words, dropping things, seeing things that are not there, pain on bottom of feet, and all around general joint pain that has gotten pretty severe. As well as facial palsy.

Which I have explained or showed pictures and videos of my symptoms to my doctor, to no avail and I have been ignored.

At this point I'm afraid for my life. And I hope that this disease isn't proven fatal.

But I will call Dr. C office again to see what labs they prefer.

My doctor's office doesn't even understand the severity of getting my blood to Igenex on time.

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Keebler
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Glad "me" picked up on this as it is key: "More so than proving your doctor wrong . . . "

you want the truth. The whole truth. The best evaluation / assessment by someone expert in the field who has the abilities required.

And, with that one positive on the WB, and whatever a good clinical assessment unfolds, it may well be lyme.

But it's not going to be just lyme, likely. You need a doctor who can fully assess you / consider all the likely factors - and be able to fully treat all the factors. And it won't be with just one Rx.

You want someone fully educated and able to really do their job with open eyes and mind.

Even if you do prove your GP "wrong" you are not going to be able to have her become fully educated and willing overnight. Even if she were willing to treat, she likely cannot due to her boss / her contract / her clinic director being IDSA minded.

Most importantly, even if willing, one cannot learn what they need to know to properly treat without some training and that takes time and much effort.

Treating lyme / tick borne / chronic stealth infections really is a sub-specialty. It requires much on many levels.

However, if you are able to access the excellent LLMD in your state's center, you may be able to "show her" the situation, with the mindset of sharing, expanding awareness. She may be helpful in some ways as she grows.

Good luck to you.
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Keebler
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What you describes sure does sound like lyme / TBD likely.

From the sound of that nurse for the blood draw situation, I would never let her do a drawn for any lyme test. Find somewhere else. Still, I'm not sure you need another test at all.

If you can't afford Dr. C., you might tell them that and ask if they have any suggestions for others who might serve you as best possible.

And, you might consider other methods, too. Many here can't access LLMDs and have found other ways with certain VERY SPECIFIC herbal protocols or
a RIFE MACHINE.

Those do take some money, of course, yet . . . at least in the interim, there are some things you can do for yourself.

as for a short course of amoxicillin, that could do more harm than good considering the extent of your symptoms.
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Keebler
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You should see about applying for social security disability since you've been unable to work for so long.

Connect with your area lyme support groups if there are some. They can help you navigate some of the bumps along the way.
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me
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Ugh, I hate the finances involved with this.

One thing to think about, which someone said to me, and it changed my decision on seeking medical answers and treatment:

"You are miserable and have no quality of life. Do you want to continue your existence like this or go back into major debt to try to get well?" I had stopped searching bc I was misdiagnosed with stuff and thought I had done all I can and had insane debt to pay off.

That made me decide to keep searching for answers, which led to me finding out I have Lyme and cos, which led to me getting treatment, which has led to me making progress, which has led me to writing this huge run-on sentence.

However, at some point the reality is that money and credit runs out at times.

It's just something to think about. Also, there may be a more inexpensive LLMD that you might have to travel to see but could possibly be more affordable in the long run. One LLMD office I called charged like $2,500 for the first visit and $900 for follow-ups versus a different LLMD who charges like 875 for the first appointment and $275 for follow-ups.

Both are still ludicrous prices, but it is something to think about.

I hope you are able to get the help you need.

Best.

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Judie
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An Erythema Migrans rash is 100% diagnostic, no need for testing.

If you need a positive test for whatever reason, I tested CDC positive after taking 1 month of doxycycline and I was still on it when I took the test.

Good luck!

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Keebler
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Judie's eyes work better than mine. Yes, with the EM Rash, you do not need a test for lyme. If you happen to have taken photos, that would be very handy.

I missed that. But the facial palsy is also very top clue.

With the symptoms you describe in your most recent posts [especially the facial palsy], be careful about other doctors suggesting any steroids, "biologics" or immune suppression.

Avoid all.
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Missyrye1956
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Thank you guys or ladies so very much! I am almost in tears, because you all are right.

I believe my doctor will never have the means to treat me properly. I am not positive but I do not believe my GP has ever seen a potential Lyme patient.

I say this because last year in April 2015, I noticed an unusual rash/bite on my buttocks. It was strange because it wasn't painful or itchy. It just was very hot to touch, about 3 inches in diameter, slightly raised patch, with a small pit in the center.

As well as extended circular redness around the center patch. I had no idea what it was and a tick never crossed my mind.

I took pictures and shared them with friends and family, no one knew what it was. So I made a appointment with my GP because I thought it was a spider bite.

My GP said that it was no spider bite, and she also said she didn't know what it was. She prescribed Bactrim, and sent me on my way.

I didn't take the Bactrim because it makes me sick, since rash didn't hurt, I didn't worry about it. Now a year later, I'm so sick with numerous symptoms and I didn't know why.

My GP wanted me to believe it was a type of panic disorder, and that I was making myself sick. But I was never satisfied with that diagnosis, and I had to beg for testing.

My GP decided to run a full auto-immune blood work up, including Lyme AB testing. Which is when my Lyme journey started. Everything on my lab came back negative EXCEPT; EIA 2.29, 1 positive band (23) on WB and positive for Streptococcus (although I have no sore throat).

I need to see Dr. C so badly or call Dr. C and see who he recommendeds. You guys are right I should not let my GP do my blood work.

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Keebler
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Can you handle the smell of garlic? Can you handle smelling like garlic?

At the very least, on your own you could get a very good brand of garlic capsules to hold you a bit steady while you figure out a plan.

There might be some other relatively affordable herbals that might help for the time being.

Curcurmin is one supplement to consider, as support. It may not be as "direct" as Allicin or Garlic would, still, it's so good for so many reasons to have on board.

Do not buy any supplements at any big box stores, though. Most store offerings are inferior quality. You'd need very specific top quality brands. In some stores, KAL and SOURCE NATURALS, GAIA, are a few top brands that come to mind.

For Allicin / Garlic, though, www.hepapro.com is my suggestion. Though spendy, it's so much better than a million capsules of a lesser quality. You might call and ask if they are in the position to offer any discounts.

A gluten-free diet might also be a good help.
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Keebler
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http://tinyurl.com/5drx94

Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine - by Dr. QingCai Zhang, MD & Yale Zhang


http://www.zhangclinicnyc.com/ZCprotocols/index.htm

Website passwords: clinic; clinic

Zhang Protocol


http://www.hepapro.com/hepapro_product.htm

Hepapro

HP005 Allicin Capsules (60 capsules/bottle, for lyme 10 day supply - but, starting out, you could do just one a day - in the middle of lunch)
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Missyrye1956
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Yes "Judie" that is what I tried to explain to my doctor. I explained to my GP that the rash I came into her doctors office with last year, wasn't just an ordinary (but unknown) insect bite.

I told her, "I think the rash that I had last year was an EM rash". And 2 weeks ago I printed off the pictures from last year (thank the Lord I took pictures) and showed them to her. And she denies that it could have been EM.

She said she didn't know what the rash was then, and still doesn't know for sure, but that it wasn't EM. I asked her, "If you were not sure what the rash was, then how do you know it wasn't EM?" She then paused and said "Well ok, I can't be 100% positive that it wasn't EM!?

So I was so confused and I still am. I don't know if she truthfully believes to her medical knowledge that it is not Lyme? Or is she in denial that it could be and she missed it?

She did ask me if I felt if she wasn't a good enough doctor to help me. Which I thought that question was odd, off topic, and quite personal than a doctor should go with a patient.

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Keebler
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I spent years trying to get various doctors to fully understand what my body was going through. I tried so hard to speak my truth, share the "real truth" about lyme / ILADS research, etc.

but I never full listened to what they were telling me about themselves: "No way in hell am I going to help you. No way in hell am I going to go beyond how I practice."

But I was too preoccupied with how I might better communicate. If they just really knew, then they would do, say, treat, etc. I was so wrong in my approach. As ignorant in how this all works as they were about lyme.


Oh, huge put-down there with that question: "She did ask me if I felt if she wasn't a good enough doctor to help me." (end quote)

She was not asking your opinion at all. She was not offering to try to become a better doctor.

She was putting you in your place. Do not ignore that. Pay attention to her methods, she's using some demeaning tactics. She is telling you, once and for all:

"Do not question me. Now. Ever. I am the boss here."

Not just that but other things she's said / done / not done, were it to be myself, I'd never see her again for any reason.

Do be sure you have your own paper copy of the Western Blot you had done.

And if you have any blood work that shows anemia or other things out of balance, be sure to have you copies for your personal file. Red blood cell abnormalities and anemia can be important diagnostically for babesia.

You can get copies from their office and may not even need for her to know. Go quietly for now so that she does not put a big red flag on you and prevent you from finding a better GP.

Get what you need and move on. Later, when you are better, you can go back with some kind of education note or such. Right now, protect your patient status, your file, your reputation. Just leave but don't announce it.
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bluelyme
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Have you taken the amoxicillin. ...? Watch under our skin on hulu with your family. ..your gp is likely to say the 30 days is all the treatment you will get ...get copies of your test ,call igenix to get a copy sent to you. ... you were wise not to take the bactrim..

--------------------
Blue

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Missyrye1956
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Yes Keebler, thank you. You hit the nail on the head. I need to move on. Iam glad that I asked for a copy of my results soon after she got them back. She was not very happy when I asked but that was okay.

You are right, that was a round about way of telling me (She's the boss, and do not question). She gave me that feeling to say the least about how she made me feel. She made me feel un-educated and low.

But that is okay, and in the past, cause I need to get better. I am sick of burning dinner, because I forgot I was even cooking.

I will check in to all the herbals you suggest. I didn't even know there were herbals to help with Lyme, so for that I thank you.

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Missyrye1956
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bluelyme, I have not started the Amoxicilln yet. And I am so very glad I didn't take the Bactrim, so she could not claim the rash went away due to that.
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Keebler
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There are many herbals that can help. There are always other ways.

I do think it would be best to consult with Dr. C if that is possible. If not, however, there are always other ways. And if you can't do a full protocol for another way, at least do the most important part.

Rife machine in another consideration. It may be that you have some things you could sell that others would find of value to them and allow you some kind of wise way to move ahead.

As for your job, as you say you've not been able to work for 3 months, not sure if you have a job that is being held for you or not.

If so, and you need suggestions for how to talk with your boss / HR person, you might post a new thread for that.

If you need help applying for disability benefits, there are threads for that, too.
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Keebler
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Also excellent herbal information in the books of HARROD BUHNER ("beau" as in beautiful). He is an exceptionally "lyme literate" master herbalist. He dose not treat, although he can suggest those who are LL and familiar with his work.

and another approach:


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=117755;p=0

RIFE Machine - Reference LINKS
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Keebler
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If you are taking ANY pharmaceutical medicines, of course, it's best to have a doctor's advice on which supplements will work best for you. Finding a doctor who can do that, if someone is on their own, can be tricky.

Just don't mix and match until you do some homework.

If you happen to be taking statins, that might be good to learn more, too.

Cornerstone of support for any protocol:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030792;p=0

LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too.
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Missyrye1956
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Thank you "me" I need to focus on treatment. Proving the doctor wrong isn't going to make me better. I am starting to have a new outlook on things now, after talking with you, and everyone above.
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Missyrye1956
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Yes Judie, I thought the EM rash would be enough too. I explained to her that the rash should be enough for a diagnosis. But she doesn't want to even consider the possibility that it could have been EM, and I went un-treated for a year. So, that is why I was paying for another test.

But, now I don't know if that is best, I shouldn't need another. And now I realize I was going to pay for another test to prove it to my GP.

But that shouldn't be my priority, I shouldn't feel the need to make her believe that I have Lyme. Because, I feel that even if I am positive per CDC criteria this time, she will find a way to discredit Igenex. She believes Quest Diagnostics test is no different than what Igenex has to offer.

Either way, I know in my heart that I do have Lyme, and that's enough.

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Missyrye1956
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Keebler, one more thing. I know I must be rambling. What you said about her putting a red flag on me is so right, and it's so powerful. I truly believe that is her intention, if she hasn't done it already.

I know this because of the way she talks to me now. As well as my phone calls I make to her office have became more and more ignored.

She said to please call and tell her about any new symptoms (which are becoming more frequent) because she wants to get me well.

But now it seems, the more I express, the more they ignore.

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Keebler
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Missy,

There are so many intricate aspects to all this. Never be concerned about voicing your questions, observations, puzzles or thoughts. You are not rambling. You started this thread, anyway, so you can use it in a way to help express whatever works for you.

So that you are aware:


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030921;p=0

Topic: "DIFFICULT PATIENT" label & HOW DOCTORS THINK & "code" terms
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Keebler
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Understanding the Politics

I'm sorry to be posting so much, really I am. Just want to be sure you have the basics. Seems to me that, maybe, this set will help you better understand why your doctor is not in line with what we need, dare to expect, regarding lyme, etc.

Now, her attitude and her clear stance would not have me going back, yet it's vital to understand the politics involved as well. She may not even be allowed to treat properly (though sounds like she is not wanting to do so, anyway).

Oh, if for any reason their office wants the name of any doctor who does treat you, do not give that out. Some have made trouble for the doctors who go the extra mile.

Also see the documentary: UNDER OUR SKIN, and the follow-up to that: EMERGENCE.


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=013239;p=0

What is a LLMD? LL ND? What is ILADS?

WHY you need an ILADS "educated" or "minded" Lyme Literate doctor (whether MD or ND, or both) - starting with assessment / evaluation for lyme, OTHER tick-borne diseases, and other chronic stealth infections - and all that goes along for the ride.

Medical "models" explained here, as to differences in the ISDA & ILADS models of assessment & treatment - and exactly why it is so very important to know the differences.
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Missyrye1956
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Keebler, you are not posting too much. I appreciate it and I feel like at least I have someone to talk to. My family does not understand Lyme, they feel I should just take the antibiotics she provided and get well.

I wish I could help them understand that it isn't that easy, but they just aren't to that point yet. Thank you for the links, Iam going to read asap. That is an issue with me, I do not understand how doctors think. So I am very interested in reading.

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Missyrye1956
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Also, I don't know if you will see this now or not.

But I have a question... Do you know if hospitals will treat me for my Lyme symptoms. Right now at this very moment, I'm in a lot of pain and I can't really feel my hands of feet, plus everything is so bright, brighter than what I'm used to with my sensitivities.

I am a little scared, so I thought about going to the ER, maybe the will see my facial palsy as well, and get there take on it.

I just don't know if the will treat my pain, or it they will just send me home. I'm just in a lot of pain, and don't know what to do but just lay down and cry.

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Missyrye1956
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Also, I don't know if you will see this now or not.

But I have a question... Do you know if hospitals will treat me for my Lyme symptoms. Right now at this very moment, I'm in a lot of pain and I can't really feel my hands of feet, plus everything is so bright, brighter than what I'm used to with my sensitivities.

I am a little scared, so I thought about going to the ER, maybe the will see my facial palsy as well, and get there take on it.

I just don't know if the will treat my pain, or it they will just send me home. I'm just in a lot of pain, and don't know what to do but just lay down and cry.

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TF
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Nearly every lyme patient who goes to the ER is sorry that they did it.

If you are having heart symptoms or cannot breathe, then you have to go. But, most of us have had just terrible experiences with the ER since those medical folks think just like your GP.

The doctors have all been miseducated about lyme by the Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA).

So, they will likely treat you like a mental patient and if you give your GP's name, they will likely tell her about your visit to them.

A Boston TV station did a show on the lyme disease controversy a few years ago. Here is the Boston Chronicle video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3_JwDPqGAg

I suggest you watch this video a few times. It explains the lyme disease controversy and the role the IDSA plays in making it difficult for a person to get good lyme treatment.

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Missyrye1956
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Thanks TF. I was afraid of that. I decided that I am not going. The last thing I want is to be treated for a mental issue.

I thought that they might treat my as a confirmed Lyme patient because I have a Rx for Lyme treatment now.

But I'm sure once they see I only had 1 positive band 23 on my WB, they will tell me I don't have it, just like my GP.

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dal123
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I see you are in Missouri, There is an excellent LLMD, Dr. C, make an appt to see him ASAP.

[ 04-10-2016, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: faithful777 ]

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Missyrye1956
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Dal123, I will be calling him Monday. I called once before, but I don't have that much money laying around. As well as no open appointments until September. But that will give me time to save money, so I can go.

I have a job, but I have been off for 3 months and my HR is holding my job for me. My HR has seen what I have been going through and she wants me to get better. But I do not know how much longer HR is willing to hold my job.

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bcb1200
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I originally tested negative on a traditional ELISA/IFA.

Then did 10 days of amoxy a month later and had my Igenex test 3 days after ending the amoxy. I came up CDC positive on my IgM

--------------------
Bite date ?
2/10 symptoms began
5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors

IgM Igenex +/CDC +
+ 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93

Currently on:

Currently at around 80% +/- most days.

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faithful777
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My LLMD does put people on abx prior to the Igenex.

--------------------
Faithful

Just sharing my experience, I am not a doctor.

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Missyrye1956
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I think I am going to go ahead and start my antibiotics. I was going to wait until after my test, but I think I will just take them now.

Thank you so much for feedback!

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Keebler
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You do not need another lyme test. You have the photo of the EM bulls eye rash. You have the WB that has a positive band. You may not need another test for lyme at all.

As you say money is very tight, I would save that and put it toward consult / treatment and see what the LLMD has to say about testing.

As for taking antibiotics, they should not be taken alone. LIVER SUPPORT is needed (though separate by a couple hours, both clock directions). And also, be aware that some antibiotics, when taken alone, can cause chronic lyme to develop. It should be a combination treatment.

When you call the office tomorrow, ask them if there is any way they might offer you a little guidance on this matter.

Of course, with your current symptoms so intense and with facial palsy, it may be that something is better than nothing now. Yet, please ask Dr. C's office before you proceed.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=120369;p=0

Topic: replication within cystic forms of lyme
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[ 04-10-2016, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
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PROBIOTICS should be on board first, too.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030792;p=0

LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too.

Start before lyme treatment. Milk Thistle is the most common. Always separate any liver support by a couple hours both clock directions - do not take at the same time as Rx.
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Thedebster66
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"Me" - those prices you were talking about, did that include testing?? Or just the visit?
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TF
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Those prices are just for the doctor's visit.

Everyone is different. Some docs want to do a lot of testing, some patients come in with all the test results they need, some docs say "Your symptoms are such that I know what you have--no testing needed" etc.

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