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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Is Artemisinin still acceptable for Babesia?

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Author Topic: Is Artemisinin still acceptable for Babesia?
improver
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Hi all! I haven't posted in a long time. I have recently been trying to start some different types of treatment and would like some input from those with experience.


I am considering starting Artemisinin for possible Babesia and decided that since I haven't read about it in years that I would do some research. I found the following info from a well respected LLMD and am now questioning if I should take it.


http://www.personalconsult.com/posts/artemisinin-poor-treatment.html

"Currently, some infection MD/DO experts and trained herbal healers use Artemisinin to treat Babesia. They seem to have no awareness that Babesia is harder to kill than malaria, and that academic and clinical experts have aggressively rejected Artemisinin in the killing of weaker malaria infections for many years—this is not remotely new; we were publishing this almost a decade ago."


http://www.townsendletter.com/July2015/babesia0715_3.html

"One routine Babesia treatment used by Lyme-literate MDs (LLMDs) and functional medicine healers is artemisinin. I wrote in three texts that this derivative is dated, weak, and not even potent enough to kill malaria.35,36 The inability of artemisinin to kill malaria due to resistance is one of many reasons that top malaria agencies are looking for and using other artemisia derivatives."

I was planning on taking just Art for a while to see how I did with it and re-evaluate from there. I am currently trying to avoid abx and the likes as my gut and digestion are a mess right now and I've taken so much stuff over the years I am hoping for a natural cure.


If you have any insight, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks

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Keebler
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I've been reading for some time now that it's not as good as it once was said to be & things change over time with the biochemical issues of any treatment - though it sure helped me many years ago - as part of a fuller protocol.

You say that you are "planning on taking just Art for a while to see how I did with it. . . ." (end quote)

If you do this, it should never - ever - be alone. Babesia, Malaria, and possibly other kinds of protozoa can easily develop a fierce resistance to artemesinin and make it so much harder to address.

Artemisinin must have another equally good team member at all times. And it's also very important to keep up the rotation so it's not the same duo at all times.

Still, consider all other options.
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[ 08-30-2018, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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I think there is something better, though. Be sure to look at the research for artemisinin of late from as many medical and phyto-botanical sources as you can. PubMed is a start though not all research wides up there.

In a podcast interview I recently heard, Buhner said that he has seen far better success with Cryptolepis and he also has remarked and written about Sida A. (in notes here):


http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/115218

CRYPTOLEPIS sanguinolenta


I don't have the minute mark but this is the interview where he said that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIRzVI5vdb8

The Better Health Guy - Podcast Interview 1:08:44

Episode #22: Healing Lyme with Stephen Harrod Buhner

Apr 18, 2017

Key Takeaways that Scott posted:

- What drew him to the field of Lyme?
- How has the environment and ecosystem impacted Lyme disease?

- What has changed with the core protocol?

- What herbs may be helpful for Bartonella, Babesia, and Mycoplasma?

- Do we need to eliminate every microbe to be well?
- Is astragalus a problem in Lyme disease?

- What toxin binders may be helpful?
- How do we modulate the immune system?

- What herbs help with mast cell activation?

- Do microbes develop resistance to plants?

- Do antimicrobial herbs impact beneficial flora?
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[ 08-30-2018, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Regarding Artemisinin,

Be sure to inquire as to any updates to this protocol. It's an excellent combination. The book is vital yet so is getting updated from the source on any new thoughts / methods.


http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/125791

Zhang Protocol - discussion thread


Artemisinin is detailed in this book, as part of a protocol:

http://tinyurl.com/5drx94

Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine - by Dr. QingCai Zhang, MD & Yale Zhang


http://www.zhangclinicnyc.com/drz.htm

Website passwords: clinic; clinic

http://www.zhangclinicnyc.com/ZCprotocols/index.htm

Zhang Protocol


http://www.hepapro.com/hepapro_product.htm

Hepapro
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Keebler
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Ultimately, it would be best (if at all possible) to consult an ILADS educated LL ND (naturopathic physician) who is up to date on all the ILADS' conference & research activity.

A LL ND would also be able to determine what might be best for your very own body at this point in time. Of course, not every can access the best health care so at least the links above should hopefully, provide some help.

Also seek out the works of other ILADS LLMDs & LL NDs who have written articles, books and some presentations are at YouTube if you search by the doctor's name.
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Keebler
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There are a few experts out there who for various reasons are not necessarily ILADS members yet are just as up to date and involved with the "mindset" - here is one, cream of the top.

Also keep in mind that some MD do suggest key herbals while others do not. For various reasons. Still, be sure to read all you can from the top thinkers. And, take note of their location in case what they write makes so much sense that you might consider working with them in person.


http://lymemd.blogspot.com/

LymeMD - an excellent blog with great information. Highly recommend this. With particular questions or topics, you can also Google Cross search with: LymeMD, _____ (key word).

Be sure thought that the search takes you to this person's blog, though as there is a similar name but not at all in sync.


http://lymemd.blogspot.com/2018/08/lyme-and-rule-of-3s.html

Lyme and the rule of 3s.

Entry for Aug. 15, 2018 -- much here about Babesia, too.

Excerpt:

. . . Rule of 3s.

3 pathogens.

Each pathogen has 3 prototypic, characteristic symptoms. . . .
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improver
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Thank you Keebler! I can always count on you to come in with quick info.

I am glad that I asked first. I am seeing a LL ND and that is where this suggestion came from. However the ND might be planning to add more anti-malaria type things later but either way my gut is telling me to hold off on this one for now.

I had cavitation surgery going on a year ago and have continued to get worse ever since. I really wonder if I should have just left well enough alone. My digestion seems like it is shutting down and I am losing weight fast. Not to mention all of the neuro symptoms.


I feel like I am caught in a confusing merry go round. Not sure what I am going to do next.

[ 08-30-2018, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: improver ]

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improver
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Interestingly enough, I am reading the blog you linked and read this

"For example, Babesia treatment with Mepron is notoriously expensive. Much cheaper, alternative options which include herbs e.g. (artemisinin derived from artemisia, worm wood) exist."

Of course I realize that he isn't advocating to take it alone.

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Harmony
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Hm. I am allergic to malarone (which contains the chemical in mepron) so I cannot take either now.

I should say that I had 2 positive blood tests (one FISH and one other one) for B. duncani

Art did work for me in the following way (I was not pregnant and it should not be taken when pregnant - get the information you need before taking anything):

I took one capsule to see if I was allergic and waited a day - all was well - then took a very high dose (1200 mg),spread out over the day in 300 mg doses, on day 1 and 900 mg each additional day, again spread out over the day in 300 mg doses, for 4 days. at least that was my plan

by day 2, I had a 103 F fever and stopped dosing for 1/2 day

then resumed - the fever broke in 24 hours and I started back up on it when the fever started going down

finished the 5 days

then same doses again (without the test day, since I knew by then that I was not allergic) 2 weeks later to kill anything that may have hatched

that second round gave me no reaction at all

I also repeated the same thing (5 days Art, 14 days break, followed by another 5 days of Art) a year later, with no reaction at all

I figured that I did kill the Babs (or something else) that first week of Art - it could have been a reaction to the Art or a coincidence, too, of course, but I doubt it- it felt like increased symptoms of previous illness plus the high fever and improved condition afterwards

I used this product both times:
https://www.amazon.com/Allergy-Research-Group-Artemisinin-VegiCaps/dp/B0009DY2Q6/ref=sr_1_3_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1537138604&sr=8-3&keywords=artemisinin+allergy+research

Please note that I read that Art is toxic to the liver and also that the liver does something to prevent absorption after a few days (to protect the body from the Art toxin, I guess?), so taking it every day for longer than 5 days does not make sense and probably does more harm than good

Stephen Buhner's book "Healing Lyme" second edition talks about dosages of Art for malaria and associated recrudescence rates on page 387 - he also goes into risks and side effects and known overdose problems that I really wanted to know before taking it

I highly recommend getting the book for this and much other valuable information he collected for all of us - it is well worth the price of a pizza! IMAO

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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Lymetoo
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It was a game changer for me. I had taken many many rounds of clindamycin and quinine with no big result.

I took Zith and ART and bingo .. in two months I was finished with babs.

(I also took the one from Allergy Research Group)

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Harmony
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Keebler,

Thanks so much for the Stephen Buhner links - I am just now listening to it.

Always good to hear support for what is wrong with us - so many people (including family) often brush over it and it makes you feel like you don't exist. Good to hear someone talk about it.

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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Keebler
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Glad to hear you are enjoying it. Another one I just stumbled across in the last couple days:


http://lymemd.blogspot.com/2018/09/babesia-cocktail-therapy.html

LymeMD Blog: September 10, 2018

Babesia cocktail therapy
-

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OzLyme
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1200 mg is a large dose?

The parasite formula I have has 1000mg, 3 x a day! Along with other stuff like thyme, walnut hull, oregano

It says to use it for 14 days, 14 days off.

Its really difficult to know with herbal stuff, it all seems so vague and inexact.

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Harmony
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OzLyme, do you mean 1200 mg of Art?

I would highly recommend Stephen Buhner's book to you if you feel like "it all seems so vague and inexact"

he tries to bring method to the madness - ha ha - no really, he seems to have done a lot of research on each herb and you can look up references yourself

he gives very exact guidelines as to dose - how much is toxic and how much is needed to kill bugs (malaria in this case - since that has more data worldwide)

the malaria dose did seem to work for me for Babs - see my post above

I think Stephen's book is advertised with a link on lymenet on the left side panel sometimes - at least I have seen it there - but you can get it anywhere

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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OzLyme
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Hi Harmony, yes I do mean 1200mg of Art - mine is "artemisia absynthia". So I guess Ive been taking 3000 mg a day for 5 days, and have stopped.

I have the "chinese wormwood" Artemisia too - those capsules are 3g each!

I should get his book. Ive listened to him speak on YouTube a lot and like him. I just havent gotten round to ordering it

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Harmony
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Hm - I am no expert with herbs - that is why I got Julie to help me - Julie McIntire - she was fantastic

very good and very kind

anyway, with 3000 mg for 5 days you may be pushing it a bit hard, from what I see

Stephen Buhner's Healing Lyme book, page 386, talks about 5000 mg for three days having caused liver inflammation - and he calls this a "very high dose"

I don't think you need it - the 1200 mg once and 900 mg for another 4 days seemed to have kicked the bugs for me (if you believe that the 103 fever came as a herx and the lack of response two weeks later for a second round and the following year for another two rounds, with two weeks in between, means that I had not more bugs to kill)

Be mindful of your liver

I take Milk Thistle and eat lost of garlic, red beets, dandelion greens

my favorite smoothie - in fact I will make one when I get done typing:

1 bunch dandelion greens

1 young coconut (water and flesh)

3-4 dates

at least one cup of blueberries (can be frozen)

1-2 spoons of raw almond butter


all organic - blend and drink - hmmmmm


Stephen Buhner also has a book on Hep C and I sometimes cook his "Hepatitis Soup" recipe to help my liver, even though I don't have Hep C

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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Harmony
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OzLyme, Julie does phone consultations, so you could get her help from Australia, too, I am pretty sure, if she has openings

you probably know that she is Stephen Buhner's partner and an herbalist and she does consult for Lyme treatments

it may be safer for you to invest in a few consultations if you can afford them

or keep asking questions and get information for yourself before you take stuff

but be careful - some of the herbs need to be taken in moderation - I think Boneset tea is another one - it can hurt your liver as well as the bugs if you take too much for too long

Here is Julie's link, if you would like it
http://gaianstudies.org/herbal_consult.html

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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Lyme248
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"Artemesia absynthia" sounds like it's wormwood, not artemesia annua, "Chinese wormwood". Artemesia annua is what Buhner used to use for Babesia. Arteminisin is an extract of artemesia annua, I think.

--------------------
chronic Lyme/Bartonella

Inside every sick person is a well person waiting to be freed

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Harmony
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Thanks for clarifying, Lyme248

I thought there was a difference but I did not know what it was

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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OzLyme
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Thanks guys.

Well i have both - the asynthia/wormwood comes in doses of 500mg along with other things
And the artemesia / chinese wormwood ... each table is 3g! So maybe if i take those ones at all, I'll break the tablet into smaller pieces.

And thanks Harmony for the link to Julie. Ill look into it. A bit tight for $$ at the moment, but maybe at some stage it would be good

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