LymeNet Home LymeNet Home Page LymeNet Flash Discussion LymeNet Support Group Database LymeNet Literature Library LymeNet Legal Resources LymeNet Medical & Scientific Abstract Database LymeNet Newsletter Home Page LymeNet Recommended Books LymeNet Tick Pictures Search The LymeNet Site LymeNet Links LymeNet Frequently Asked Questions About The Lyme Disease Network LymeNet Menu

LymeNet on Facebook

LymeNet on Twitter




The Lyme Disease Network receives a commission from Amazon.com for each purchase originating from this site.

When purchasing from Amazon.com, please
click here first.

Thank you.

LymeNet Flash Discussion
Dedicated to the Bachmann Family

LymeNet needs your help:
LymeNet 2020 fund drive


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations.

LymeNet Flash Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Morgellons

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Morgellons
grandmother
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19908

Icon 1 posted      Profile for grandmother     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Does anyone know what Morgellons really is? Thank you.
Posts: 885 | From CT | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
hopingandpraying
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 9256

Icon 1 posted      Profile for hopingandpraying     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
https://thecehf.org/what-is-morgellons/

One of the top Lyme-literate docs has written a book about it:

"Morgellons: The Legitimization of a Disease: A Factual Guide" by the World's Leading Clinical Expert Dr. S.

Posts: 8822 | From Illinois | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garz
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 52095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Garz     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
recent studies have found mixed bacterial biofilms in the skin are involved - main ones

borrelia
h-pylori (yes the stomach ulcer causing bacteria)
bartonella
Rickettsia
others

they appear to alter the protein producing machinery of the skin cells to cause them to form the characteristic keratin fibres - rather than skin scales of normal epidermis

the difficult in treating is likely due to 3 main things
-difficult to kill bacteria in the first place
-living in a preferential site with poor abx penetration
-bacteria communities protected inside biofilms

interesting paper here describing these type of findings
https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/7/2/70/htm

Posts: 200 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Different bacteria are capable of different things and through a process of elimination you can figure out which bacteria is responsible.

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/207/9/1397/928803

"Depolymerization of cytokeratin intermediate filaments facilitates intracellular infection of HeLa cells by Bartonella henselae"

"B. henselae Infection Stimulates the Increase of Keratin Gene Expression"

If you are interested in the truth then you are interested in the truth, if you are interested in something else then that is sad for you.

[ 10-07-2021, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garz
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 52095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Garz     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Milton - could you perhaps expand on your comments to indicate what in your opinion was wrong with the paper by M et al?

(editing out last name per LN rules)

[ 10-07-2021, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

Posts: 200 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sure Garz;

well it's lab work, in other words identifying a pathogen load in a patient is a small part of microbiology.

By process of elimination you can predict what pathogens are capable of.

h-pylori- half the people on earth have that infection and half the people in the world don't have morgellons.

The Borrelia narrative for morgellons is wrong because borrelia isn't capable of causing mutations on a grand scale like bartonella is.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0168952593900149?via%3Dihub

"Genetic skin diseases caused by mutations in keratin intermediate filaments"

the fibers are caused by mutations of existing cell fibers.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003986110005163

"Keratin Gene Mutations in Disorders of Human Skin and its Appendages"

www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/5E8C56D7DA833AE73C67C41EB642903B/S1431927614007636a.pdf/three_dimensional_visualization_of_bacterial_type_iii_export _apparatus_in_the_lyme_disease_spirochete_borrelia_burgdorferi.pdf

"Three Dimensional Visualization of Bacterial Type III Export Apparatus in the
Lyme Disease Spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi"

Borrelia has type3 secretion system not capable of DNA transfer as noted in the Keggs diagram.

https://www.genome.jp/kegg-bin/show_pathway?org_name=bbu&mapno=03070&mapscale=&show_description=show

Bartonella on the other hand codes for two type 4 secretion systems which can insert DNA and cause mutations.

www.pnas.org/content/108/35/14643.abstract

“Conjugative DNA transfer into human cells by the VirB/VirD4 type IV secretion system of the bacterial pathogen Bartonella henselae”

“Bacterial type IV secretion systems (T4SS) mediate interbacterial conjugative DNA transfer and transkingdom protein transfer into eukaryotic host cells in bacterial pathogenesis. The sole bacterium known to naturally transfer DNA into eukaryotic host cells via a T4SS is the plant pathogen Agrobacterium tumefaciens. Here we demonstrate T4SS-mediated DNA transfer from a human bacterial pathogen into human cells. We show that the zoonotic pathogen Bartonella henselae can transfer a cryptic plasmid occurring in the bartonellae into the human endothelial cell line EA.hy926 via its T4SS VirB/VirD4”

"Morgellons" is a kind of cancer and the fibers aren't of much consequence , they are just one of many mutations that bartonella infection causes.

If you have the lyme complex then you are genetically modified. All cells in your body have the same genome. Differentiation takes place in the epigenome, in between the nucleus wall and the cell membrane. When Bartonella genetically modifies a person then the cells of the immune system don't as they should. bartonella does this in order to survive inside you.In order to clear a Bartonella infection you have to fix your immune system cells and then the immune system will clear the infections AND the abnormal cells.

That needs to be kept up to be healthy because when an organism is genetically modified then that is permanent.

https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/biology_diss/68/

"Bartonella Henselae Inhibits Cellular Apoptotic Regulators to Ensure Survival"

"The presence of B. henselae has a noticeable effect on ceramide-induced caspase-8 and caspase-3 gene expression"

Hope that made some kinda sense.

Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe this will clarify things. I'm sure someone might read the above and say 'not everyone with Bartonella has morgellons either.

When genetic engineering sarted ramping up in the early 90's they used a bacteria called Agrobacterium , the name has been updated to rhizobium radiobacter,in order to perform the task an engineered plasmid is created.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rXizmLjegI

An example of this is the glow in the dark pigs;

https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/30/5256732/scientists-create-glow-in-the-dark-pigs-using-jellyfish-dna

So what happened is that a wide array of engineered plasmids for various tasks was introduced to nature.

There a variety of ways that Bartonella can acquire these plasmids, here is one example.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0012666

“Evidence of Transfer by Conjugation of Type IV Secretion System Genes between Bartonella Species and Rhizobium radiobacter in Amoeba”

Conclusions:

“Based on this, we speculate that amoeba favor the transfer of genes as phagocytic protists, which allows for intraphagocytic survival and, as a consequence, promotes the creation of potential pathogenic organisms.”

So this is what I needed to learn on my own journey. When buhner first came out with his books more people were using his stuff. I read this typical comment in the lyme forums plenty of times, " I feel fine , no symptoms, until I stop using it then I relapse.

What I finally figured out is that all the natural stuff that works works epigenetically, so it works as long as you are using it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4T0LzU_rv0&t=1s

cheers!

Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garz
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 52095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Garz     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
in fairness i think we are a bit off topic

as i understood it the paper mentioned above says basically "we looked in the skin of people with Morgellons and here we found mixed bacterial colonies in biofilms"

i'm not sure they claimed to prove causality by any one species or another

the bit that i found interesting was the biofilm was apparently consisting largely of Alginate - which was new to me - and doesn't seem to fit with fibrinolytic enzymes often used by clinicians

Posts: 200 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garz
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 52095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Garz     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
just wanted to add that its come to my attention that one of the authors of the paper i mentioned above has a prior history of some questionable behaviour in regards to previous publications.

it seems some previous Dr. S has a history of dubious data practices and some of his papers have been rejected at peer review. so as always - we need to evaluate critically and seek verification from more than one source where possible.

(editing out last name per LN rules)

[ 10-07-2021, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

Posts: 200 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes Dr. S was fired from Stanford for falsifying data on AIDS studdies.

Also worth noting is that Dr S, author of that morgellons book, used to practice in Texas but had all 3 of her nursing licences revoked there and had to re-establish herself in Washington DC.

Something else to point out is that besides S and M the other person listed on the paper Garz posted is Eva Sapi, she is also closely associated with the CEHF and a personal friend of Cindy Casey. The rest of the authors are Eva Sapi's students.

What the CEHF does is to use 'Open access" journals to publish those papers.

(editing out last names and defamation of Lyme researchers)

[ 10-07-2021, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
marie
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 3980

Icon 1 posted      Profile for marie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wasn't Dr S also in California? What happened in that state?

[ 10-07-2021, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

Posts: 475 | From southern new jersey | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I didn't know about California , Marie, but what I read is in Texas she was prescribing meds for patients and not putting it it their medical records.
Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Garz
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 52095

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Garz     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by milton:
I didn't know about California , Marie, but what I read is in Texas she was prescribing meds for patients and not putting it it their medical records.

I'm not sure I would take that as a black mark against her.

in many states doctors trying to help patients with treatments both they and the patient want and believe in are persecuted by medical boards for stepping outside outdated and dogmatic guidelines.

we need some regulation of course - but what happens when medical science does not understand a condition - just throw people on the scrap heap? - of treat them compassionately and explain options and risks and make a decision on how to move forward?

I suspect Ms S was in this latter camp - and was not recording the long term abx for people who the medical establishment wrote off as having hallucinations about stuff in their skin so she could go on helping them.

(Editing out last name of medical practitioner per LN rules)

[ 10-07-2021, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

Posts: 200 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robin123
Moderator
Member # 9197

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Robin123     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by marie:
Wasn't Dr S also in California? What happened in that state?

She moved.
Posts: 13041 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So when you talk about so called "Morgellons" then cells have different fibers for structural purposes.

There is the KIF, keratin intermediate filament, there are microtubules and there are stress fibers in the extracellular matrix.

All of the different fibers in a cell are created by information in the cells genome, DNA.

So you would need an infection that causes mutations such as bartonella. You have to understand how different bacteria work and not just look in a microscope and make a bunch of assumptions.

This one is from 2001.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11260140/

"Formation of stress fibres in human endothelial cells infected with Bartonella bacilliformis is associated with altered morphology, impaired migration and defects in cell morphogenesis"

You could throw some long term antibiotics at a "morgellons' patient but if you dig deep enough into the science to actually understand what is going on then they don't really apply.

If you have a Bartonella infection then the treatment has to be directed at the immune system which Bartonella turns of genetically.

You know The lyme foundations used to celebrate Neil Spector , RIP, and his message was "lyme is an infectious version of cancer".

Cancer is a genetic disease and you know which bacteria causes genetic disease? Bartonella ... not Borrelia.

The only way I became healthy again is to become engaged in the science and not to parrot what some doctor says. I went to 7 of them an got 7 different diagnosis so their competence wasn't clearly evident.

What it boils down to is that the lyme complex is driven by a bacteria that shuts of the immune system and bonking the different infections on the head with antibiotics doesn't really work. That's why people spend years on end in lyme forums talking about stuff that never really seems to work.

You have to fix the actual problem and that is the immune system then it will do it's job and clear the infections and the abnormal cells.

Using ABX for lyme is lyme trying to change the spark plugs in your car with a hammer, wrong tool.

Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
grandmother
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 19908

Icon 1 posted      Profile for grandmother     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Milton, How, exactly, did you make yourself better?
Posts: 885 | From CT | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well what Bartonella does is cause abnormal cells and that is where a lot of the symptoms come from.

I used some things that treat cancer.

I got lucky and found a couple things that when you put them together are very powerful but it still took a year and a half to get my flesh back to normal.

You also have to support your body systems so you can process the large amount of toxins out.

The way it works is that it makes your immune system cells work again.

It doesn't have much to do with treating the infection directly , that is what your immune system is for.

Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
marie
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 3980

Icon 1 posted      Profile for marie     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do you have to find the fibers also. I heard you need a high magnifier to see them-so how do you know. Do you need antibiotics.
Posts: 475 | From southern new jersey | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
milton
Member
Member # 52455

Icon 1 posted      Profile for milton     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think plenty of people have the fibers but don't realize it . They get worse the more advanced it gets.

The feet are a hot spot for that and one way to check if you have some ben gay or icy hot is to rub some of that on top of your feet. If a bunch of dust bunnies pop out you can look at them under a magnifying glass or a 60x eye loupe works well.

Posts: 10 | From Kansas | Registered: Sep 2021  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | LymeNet home page | Privacy Statement

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:

The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey
907 Pebble Creek Court, Pennington, NJ 08534 USA


| Flash Discussion | Support Groups | On-Line Library
Legal Resources | Medical Abstracts | Newsletter | Books
Pictures | Site Search | Links | Help/Questions
About LymeNet | Contact Us

© 1993-2020 The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Use of the LymeNet Site is subject to Terms and Conditions.