"CONCLUSIONS: These data demonstrate a relationship between angiotensin II and intracellular magnesium and calcium. In hypertension, angiotensin II-stimulated calcium responses may be related to simultaneously decreased intracellular magnesium concentrations."

PMID: 8390527

This is what benicar does...block the angiotensin II receptors. However, the underlying CAUSE is a calcium response that is related to a decrease in Mg.

Tying the pieces of the puzzle together.

The ROOT of the problem is a very significant Mg depletion.

I ignore your posts because they are so distracting to the theme of the threads.

We all appreciate the value of magnesium...I supplement my diet with it everyday.

Magnesium is important but it in no way will cure this disease...the evidence is clear on that point.

As I have said earlier, you can practially quote all of the studies you want...to support any position that you want...this occurs in science research everyday. Science is full of bias...it's not as pure as people think it is.

The best work comes from the proper interpretation and application of the research.

Start over with your study and look into the pathogenesis of this disease...when you understand the role of the immune system and how the pathogens are triggering an inflammatory cascades...then you will be able to contribute constructive dialogue to this group instead of distractions...I say that in a sincere tone...not intending to be harmful.

Seeking truth...not publicity,

I hope that you are not getting frustrated with the responses that you are getting from the "pro-Benicar" camp.

I for one am thanking you for the research that you have done, and for all of the warnings that you are giving to these people about taking this drug.

You have done your part! You have given the warnings. Everybody who goes on this protocal, expecting a miracle, will have no excuses for any complications that may occur from the Benicar protocal. Like I said before, they have been warned.

I know that it is hard when people will not listen, but just be patient. Over time, once these people figure out that the Benicar program is not curing, but only covering up their symptoms, then maybe they will listen to what you have to say.

But until then, just let the Benicar craze pass. And believe me, if history is any guide, it too, shall pass; with some unfortunate results.

Have a great day!

DMC

"Magnesium is important but it in no way will cure this disease...the evidence is clear on that point."

How can you ignore that Ca and Mg supplements restored the fab portion of the antibodies specific to fight lyme? (PubMed abstract)

The 2 Romanians with lyme disease that had their Mg restored to normal levels and who were concurrently given abx. were cured.

The truth is not going to come from this country. We are too pharmaceutically dominated.

Modulation? Reduction?

Is it also possible that while Benicar possibly interupts the inflamatory response cascade...which is the idea here, and how this can help with therapy and efectiveness..

Isn't it also worth while to touch on the comnnection to things like Mg levels, which also assist at the root of the same problem.

I mean..if the focus is the TNF and the inflamatory cascade.

The interrelation is of great interest to out individual cases.

Thanks everybody!

Mo

Benicar improves the body's immune system so it can clear the infection. It's not a mask for the disease and it's not an immuno-suppressing drug like corticosteroids.

Study the work by Marshall before you extrapolate your ideas.

Dr. Marshall's work is an extremely important breakthrough in the treatment of our disease. Your constructive input will be appreciated.

Scott

Will it be that Benicar increases Magnesium levels?

For example, pain meds are terrible for our condition. While it masks the pain, it also sets up a favorable environment in the endocrin system for the Lyme and the other co-infections to survive.

I actually felt better when I was balancing out my bio-terain with proper vitamines and minerals. I stoped for awhile, for what reason I really dont know, but I have started once again.

This is where my concern about Benicar comes in. Until I am convinced that it in fact aids in the destruction of the bacteria without causing major problems, I will not go down that road.

I have meet what many would consider brilliant researchers and doctors over the past 10 years. Most are too brilliant for their own good. I find there egos can not fit inside the room that they occupy. This is what has caused our problem and why we have had trouble securing proper treatment.

The best doctors I have found are those that are very humble, they listen and contribute where they can.

Marnie I have enjoyed reading all of your information, it has been a big help. I might not always agree on every aspect, but it has helped me in my research.

Scott, I understand and appreciate the medical knowledge you have, but what you have presented on this board so far for me has fallen short of convincing me that this protocol is the one treatment we have all been waiting for. That is not to say that my opinion will not change in the future.

It is unfortunate that this topic has now been broken up into 10 or more sub-topics. It is obvious that we now have two camps here and the tension is rising and in my humble opinion is taking away energy from some other important topics.

I hope we can resolve this and move on.

My friend met with a doctor today in San Francisco who was very excited by the research. She said she'd just come from a medical conference where a woman was explaining the benefits of Angiotensin II receptors in the anti-aging field. She said it was very complicated, but fascinating. Benicar is NOT masking symptoms. It's preventing necrosis, cell death, etc., and has very few side effects. Especially to those of us who are dying from side effects created by our own bodies' efforts to fight the infection.

People can be skeptical, but please don't jump to erroneous conclusions. This is VERY exciting and new, which is something we've been needing. Even if it doesn't become YOUR treatment of choice, it's definitely going to contribute to a much better understanding of what's going on in our bodies. EVERYBODY who's got an understaning of infectious illness is seeing the potential with this research. This is GOOD news! Let's be happy!

quote:

---

Originally posted by free2reckon:
Tree,

Benicar improves the body's immune system so it can clear the infection. It's not a mask for the disease and it's not an immuno-suppressing drug like corticosteroids.

Study the work by Marshall before you extrapolate your ideas.

Dr. Marshall's work is an extremely important breakthrough in the treatment of our disease. Your constructive input will be appreciated.

Scott

[This message has been edited by free2reckon (edited 04 May 2004).]

---

I think your wrong read what marnie is saying.

1. Marshall FE, Marshall TG: The Angiotensin Hypothesis: how sunlight feeds the run-away inflammation of Sarcoidosis.

Key word HYPOTHESIS
1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action
2 : a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences
3 : the antecedent clause of a conditional statement

No really, I don't think its anyone's business what a fully capable adult decides to pursue as their treatment. That decision is clearly up to the patient and the doctor that is treating them.

Whether it be rife, magnesium, benicar, herbs, accupuncture, etc. Really, should it be a hot topic of debate? If you aren't going to try something, and would rather wait until the verdict comes in, then by all means, do so and stay out of the way of the adults who believe that this may work for them.

If someone gets SO excited as to believe this is the cure ( while I agree not THEEEEE cure for everyone) then let them have their own positive energy created and give them your best.

I just hate to see everyone argue time and time again over specific treatments. Hello? We're all sick. We're all looking for an answer, and again, I ask what do YOU have to lose? Is it your health? Whether you chose to do or NOT do a particular thing is clearly your choice.

Im a full grown 27 year old woman with three children of my own and a mother that doesn't live with me. Last I checked, I wasn't wearing diapers. SO while some therapies are far out there and may not be fully understandable, can you not let that to the people who are really excited and want to pursue something they feel is the answer for them?

I, myself, have nothing to lose by trying benicar OR magnesium. I would eat roasted cow pie at this point. I HAVE and do see some posts that not in a million years would I try. I think I seen ecstacy mentioned as "a cure " this morning. GREAT for that person, I think. Personally, I think it is a silly thing, but if that person wants to try ecstacy, hey by all means, go right on ahead.

As for me, I'm trying benicar. Great for me , whoopitidy ding dong. If it works, I will say "it worked for ME". Maybe my body chemistry will be proper for the use of.

Maybe it won't. There ARE people who have done the mag and have got to the point where they feel it is a cure. GREAT! By all means, let them alone.

I dont think everything should be touted as the cure though. And besides, to me, a cure is

opening one eye in the morning, peeking around slowly making sure the room isn't spinning, rolling over to see my daughter's big green eyes looking at me, raising my head and NOT having a migraine and knowing that someDAY, someHOW, I will JUMP out of bed in the morning when the alarm clock goes off

and go jump up and down on HER bed to wake her up and wisk her away to drown innocent barbies in the tub.

Let people alone, please. Is this really all worth it?

Theres numerous ways to skin a cat
We are all trying to figure this out

Ever shave a cat? They look funny.

The fact is, it seems like a good possibility, based on the research, that Benicar stops the necrotic process and actually promotes healing.

It makes perfect sense that some people would rather wait and see what happens, while others want to jump right in and give it a try. Plenty of room for all of us.

I'm sick of this disease. I've been praying for a solution for a long time. Sometimes I'm ready to give up. Right now, I feel really hopeful.

penny

p.s. "Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die." I liked that.
:-)

Here's another one. Infection will kill us all, unless we get it first.

They are called Macrophages, and their purpose is to secrete caustic chemicals (called Chemokines and Cytokines) that allow the macrophages in the inflammed tissue to digest the invader and the resulting dead tissue

Now my point is what if its NOT a runaway immune responce BUT a actual responce to a invader that THEY ie Scientists have not found or ignore for there own agenda?

Remember Steere money in pockets

ps heres another one you might like?

Life is sexually transmitted. really hahahha

My shoulders are becoming atrophied. They're so painful I can barely move them (until the last couple of days). One name for this is glenohumeral avascular necrosis. I also have a very infected, necrotic jaw and sinuses. Nothing seems to be stopping it. Tumor and avascular necrosis are the "unprogrammed death of living tissue and can be caused by injury, infection, cancer, infarction, inflammation and so on." INFLAMMATION!!! If I can calm this cycle down enough to give the body some help to fight these bugs, I'm all for it. The Marshall Protocol is showing that using small amounts of antibiotic with minimum herxing, combined with Benicar, is greatly reducing the bacterial load with almost no side effects. The bacterial load lessens and we feel better. The herxing lessens and we feel better. The inflammation lessens and we feel better. And the side effects are minimal. Except for the fact that one of Benicar's side effects is Kidney protection. People doing the program are raving about their success. You just don't hear that with these kinds of illnesses. Marshall has used himself as the guinea pig. He's got a good understanding of antibiotics, and he believes that Sarc and lyme and CFS and other "autoimmune" illnesses all share a similar, multi-pathogenic base, and that the treatment should help us all. This is what I've believed for quite some time now. I'm more than ecstatic to give it a try.

"People can be skeptical, but please don't jump to erroneous conclusions. This is VERY exciting and new, which is something we've been needing. Even if it doesn't become YOUR treatment of choice, it's definitely going to contribute to a much better understanding of what's going on in our bodies. EVERYBODY who's got an understaning of infectious illness is seeing the potential with this research. This is GOOD news! Let's be happy! "

I have not jumped to any erroneous conclusions. Me thinks it is you that has jumped. I just remain skeptical. There have been a number of things for Lyme that have been exciting and new, this is not the first. You have to realize that there has to be a counter balance here to insure that well thougt out conclusions are reached.

You and Scott have been throwing statements and assumptions around like they are nothing. It is your enthusasim that is causing a few of us here to express our concerns with deep convictions.

If that makes you feel like I am being a pessimist so be it. My main concern is to get people to think and not shoot from the hip.