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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » NIH bleb studies - technical question

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Author Topic: NIH bleb studies - technical question
david1097
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Hello

Back in 1989, NIH funded a study to determine methods to isolate and observe spirocette blebs. This work was apparently succesful in coming up with an approach that can be used.

Now here is the question,

It appears that persons with Lyme have an over-abundance of Blebs in all of the body fluids, even sweat and tears. (someone stated that over 95% have detectable blebs in their tears).

Now if the blebs can be isloated and observed (by silver stain and electron microscopy) directly, this is irrefutable evidence that the bacteria are still shedding the blebs and therefore must still be active in the body.

So, this beig the case, why is there not a diagnositc test that uses this technique to confirm active Lyme infection? It can't be the cost factor because some of the other tests are horrendously expensive and are not very reliable.

How much would you pay to get a >95% gauranteed accurate result of active infection? I would pay a lot, relatively speaking.

Note that with Bowen, in order to obtain the floresence that is used for detection, there has to be a floresent tagged antibody that adheres to one of the antigens on the surface of the bacteria. No matter how good the test is, someone is going to say that there is some level of uncertainty due to the possibile non-specificty of the antibody that is used. If you hae a picture of the blebs and do a genetic sequence of its makeup, would this be 100% diagnostic?

Thanks


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bpeck
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The best detection procedure for bacsterial DNA in body fluid is PCR or reverse PCR.

I am very familiar with scanning electron micscopes (SEM) have prepared (non medical) samples and operating it. (I work in R & D for a semi-conductor company)

Were talking millions of dollars for the SEM, and preptime of the sample can be a few hrs - then a skilled pseron has to run it, then a qualified person identify what is seen.

Only a research lab would have this piece of equipment - and because it's "research" it probably wouldn't qualify as a "standard diagnostic test" which the medical community and the insurance companies require for disease determination.

Barb


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Marnie
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Barb, doesn't the electron microscope KILL whatever it is viewing?

Would it "shatter" the blebs?


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lymewarrior03
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This might be a good question to email the ilads group.

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lou
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I am puzzled that NIH would have done any such study; it would be entirely out of character. Are you sure about this? Was this published anywhere?
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david1097
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Hi
Here is one of the papers in the subject. i believe that there are others also.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2482525

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bpeck
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The sample put into an SEM is usually prepared by sputtering it with a protective material (like gold) so the elctron beam will not destroy the sample.

And the sample is viewed under vacuum from any where from 12 to 35 to 50 thousand magnification.

Barb


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Marnie
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So, Barb...provide nutrients (pos. charges - gold) to keep the blebs healthy/alive.

Hummm. In the following abstract, watch closely for the words "Starvation media":

Cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato: induction, development, and the role of RpoS.
Murgia R, Piazzetta C, Cinco M.
Dipartimento di Scienze Biomediche, sez. Microbiologia, Universita degli Studi di Trieste, Trieste, Italy. [email protected]
It has been demonstrated recently that cells of Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato, the etiological agent of Lyme disease, transform from mobile spirochetes into nonmotile cystic forms in the presence of certain unfavourable conditions, and that cystic forms are able to reconvert to vegetative spirochetes in vitro and in vivo.

The purpose of this study was to investigate the kinetics of conversion of borreliae to cysts in different stress conditions such as starvation media or the presence of different antibiotics. Using the same experimental conditions we also investigated the possible role in cyst formation of RpoS, an alternative sigma factor that controls a regulon in response to starvation and transition to stationary phase.

We observed that beta-lactams penicillin G and ceftriaxone, the antibiotics of choice in Lyme borreliosis treatment, favoured the production of cysts when used with serum-depleted BSK medium. In contrast, we observed a low level of cyst formation in the presence of macrolides and tetracyclines.

In order to elucidate the role of the rpoS gene in cyst formation we analyzed the reaction of the rpoS mutant strain in comparison with its wild-type in different conditions. Under the same stimuli, both the wild-type borrelia and the rpoS knock-out isogenic strain produced cystic forms with similar kinetics, thus excluding the participation of the gene in this phenomenon. Our findings suggest that cyst formation is mainly due to a physical-chemical rearrangement of the outer membrane of Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato leading to membrane fusion and controlled by different regulation mechanisms."

It would appear the keets when subjected to only an acidic environment, go into a cyst form and that supplying minerals prevents this.

And would enable our body to effectively fight this disease.

Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.


The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.

Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.

The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.

PMID: 9125579


Not surprising or "novel". Ca and Mg are needed to make healthy antibodies. Mdschoice website on functions of Mg state this. Most docs do not have a clue about the nutritional side of disease/health and how it protects.


P.S. Even a low concentration of cysts is one too many!



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lou
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That explains it. The study was done at the Rocky Mountain Lab, the only part of NIH that has a clue about Lyme disease. That's where Dr. Burgdorfer worked.
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Marnie
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and explains Dr. Burgdorfer's letter to me in Nov., 2002 which started,

"This is to acknowledge receipt of your October 16th letter, in regard to the use of metals on the physiology of borrelia burgdorferi and other spirochetes."

Gold shots were tried for arthritics years ago with disasterous outcomes...cancer.

Restore the balance. The missing mineral IS magnesium.

And yes, I sent Willy the Romanian abstract.


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